Than you all again for the advice. Here is an update on the situation:
I invited all my regular players to a group chat and simply asked "Has anyone had any fun the past two sessions?" Their answers ranged from "No way." to "Yes, but..." We are all basically in agreement that either this dude has to shape up and decide to share the spotlight, not be so aggressive, and stop making logically indefensible decisions or he is gone. I had already been planning on a new session zero just to level characters up and get a pulse on the game. It really should have happened when the two new players joined.
As of right now my plan is this:
1) I am going to have the next session at my home instead of one of my player's homes. This way if I need to kick someone out I will be in my own house and there will be no disagreement.
2) I am going to have one of my players who has a good relationship with his wife talk to her about the state of the campaign while my co-DM and I (we switch back and forth between dungeon levels in a megadungeon) will take him aside and gently explain that his playstyle and attitude are causing a disruption, we are going to set some new ground rules at a new session zero, and if he doesn't follow those rules then we may have to boot him and possibly his wife. I also learned that he did not offer to pay for my other player's figurine. I will suggest that he do so, even if he refuses I feel that he is obliged to offer.
3) During session zero I will lay out a set of ground rules and get buy in as well as gather the players' feedback. I will touch on the following rules that apply directly to him:
a) Don't hog the spotlight and be quiet during others turns. This is a collaborative experience, everyone will get time in the spotlight, be respectful and give others their time.
b) If you want to challenge a ruling, please have a rule ready to justify the ruling (this is big at our table, we are rules lawyers and it is part of the fun of the game for us). Do not appeal to the laws of physics or "common sense" this is a fantasy game with rules. In real life you can trip and break your neck, in this world you can fall 100 feet and still survive. If you want to challenge a ruling, bone up.
One of my players, the one who invited them, offered to break the news to them if he does not shape up. I will not put her through this. If he acts like an ass for one more session then I am going to boot him and I will be more than happy to break the news to him, if anything I am maybe a bit too eager. If he does anything egregious at the table like calling people names or threatening someone then he is gone then and there. It's my house and I won't tolerate it. I hope it doesn't come to that, but with this guy I plan on being ready for anything.
This all sounds great but I would say for you, ease back a little, he is a brand new player so some of your rules will be a struggle regardless of his personality. The rules lawyer thing, across all the books there are alot of rules for a new player to learn, asking questions, respectfully, should be fine at your table, asking if a certain rule makes sense in a situation for a newbie should also be an ok thing to do. I get your table are very much about RAW but you have also all played the game.
Any threatening or inappropriate behaviour should be dealt with swiftly, make sure though that all these rules are laid out to him so he is fully aware of what happens if he breaks them. also don't aim your conversation at him, you are defining things for the group as a whole. Explain the reason behind every rule you are stating. "The game can get muddied down if we get into mechanics so as DM I can make a quick call and we can discuss after the game, everyone needs to have a chance to have their moment, and it can be fun to sit back and watch and engage with your fellow players etc.
I get he has pissed you off, and I get he sounds like that kid who we all had to deal with at school, but, don't go into the session looking for a reason to have a go at him or it will make the session horrible for you, be aware, be prepared, if you need to write a few things out and have them ready in your DM notes to say to him then do that, but, approach it the same way as any other session 0, maybe also take the chance to ask him how he is liking his character, how he is enjoying the game and what he wants to get out of it. It will help you and the other players understand where he is coming from and will make him start to feel part of the group and that his opinion matters. It might also help you shape the conversation in a way that explains this table might not be for him, he may well want a drink and kill group and it is clear your group is not that.
I would also tell the room that the whole point of DnD is escapism so, everyone try and leave any personal stuff at the door and just enjoy being someone different for a while. This is important for them as a couple, if they are the type to fight etc the you are subtly telling them that any issues they are having at hime, stay at the door and dont come to the table.
Good advice. I don’t mind rules questions from the table, especially from new players it’s all in how you ask it, i.e. “My armor class should block that dude!!!” vs. “Is my armor class high enough to block that?”
Iam getting more of the former from that dude. It is really infuriating when you have played the game for almost 30 years and a green beginner thinks he can dictate the rules to you.
But it is also very understandable when a new player comes in and tries learning the game and understanding that no it is not a realistic RPG, he may not see it as dictating the rules but more understanding them.
As for something you mentioned at the start about him going for the called shot to the eye, I totally let my players tell me how they are attacking, it doesn’t affect the hit or damage but it does feed into the narriative.
“Ko what are you doing”
“I am going to take a shot, trying to get him through the eye”
Rolls a 16 to hit (just hits) and then 6 damage
“your arrow fires out towards his head, at the last minute he moves and instead of plowing into his eyeball it catches the side of his head leaving a deep gash”
Had the player rolled a higher to hit, or more damage, then he may have got nearer to the eye. In real terms it has no effect but working these little narrative points into your combat may give him more of a sense of his own agency. Although I will say from your explanation you certainly gave him slot of that by allowing him to consta fight the skull.
About the smashed mini thing, he might not know how much work goes into one, he might think it's just a cheap little bauble you spend 5 minutes painting one color or something ( which it isn't. ), and not a labor of love, I or another gamer would know you spend at least 3 or 4 hours painting it, a gamer's response would be "Oh crap!, geez I'm really, really sorry." and proceed to pay the dude 20 or 30 bucks for for the busted mini, but he probably thinks it's more like a toy soldier, some thing you have a small bucket full of, and that's not on him, but he also sounds like he has problems....
We announced at the table that the mini was $30 to $40. We also said we could glue it. I only added that in to show his aggressive disposition. His behavior suggests that he’s not not a tool.
He broke someone else's stuff. It doesn't matter if it costs $30 or 30 cents. You don't get to do that.
I'm sorry but you are a lot more generous with this guy and his wife than I would be. I work hard as a DM. I do not do it to have my nights ruined. If someone is ruining sessions, bullying me, making me afraid to even bring up legit issues, etc., I am not going to DM.
The minute that the case becomes that I could be having a more pleasant time not DMing than DMing, I'm done.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Oh and the plot thickens! Now I hear that wife has Covid and likely had it at the table. If she had symptoms that is unforgivable. I would have to kick her on principle. One of my players is unvaccinated. When I had a sniffle last month I stayed home like a responsible person.
About the smashed mini thing, he might not know how much work goes into one, he might think it's just a cheap little bauble you spend 5 minutes painting one color or something ( which it isn't. ), and not a labor of love, I or another gamer would know you spend at least 3 or 4 hours painting it, a gamer's response would be "Oh crap!, geez I'm really, really sorry." and proceed to pay the dude 20 or 30 bucks for for the busted mini, but he probably thinks it's more like a toy soldier, some thing you have a small bucket full of, and that's not on him, but he also sounds like he has problems....
No way, another gamer wouldn't even touch another person's mini.
I am somewhat new to this forum. Been lurking for a while but this thread and prompted me to make my first post :)
If this player had broken a 30 dollar mini of mine, there would have been some serious issues. It is about respect for other peoples property. You don't break someones stuff and not offer to at least pay for it. And it doesn't seem like this guy even cares he broke it. He would have been booted from my group instantly,. Goodbye. Pack up your stuff and get out.
I understand about you not wanting to lose his wife as a player. It sounds like she really likes the game and it is a shame she is married to a meathead. If they argue in public on a regular basis, the marriage is probably on a rocky road as it is. Every couple I have encountered that argues in public usually ends in a break-up or divorce. It is not a healthy relationship.
As for the covid development, she might not have known she had it. My son just tested positive and he has shown no signs of being sick at all (thank god). If she was coughing at the table or had other symptoms, then she should have stayed away from the game. Unfortunately with covid, there are a lot of people who still believe it is fake. Not sure if she falls into this category or not but even if she doesn't believe covid is real and she was sick, she still should have stayed away from the group just out of respect for the other players.
About the smashed mini thing, he might not know how much work goes into one, he might think it's just a cheap little bauble you spend 5 minutes painting one color or something ( which it isn't. ), and not a labor of love, I or another gamer would know you spend at least 3 or 4 hours painting it, a gamer's response would be "Oh crap!, geez I'm really, really sorry." and proceed to pay the dude 20 or 30 bucks for for the busted mini, but he probably thinks it's more like a toy soldier, some thing you have a small bucket full of, and that's not on him, but he also sounds like he has problems....
No way, another gamer wouldn't even touch another person's mini.
He needs to pay for it.
RE: The COVID stuff? WTF?
No one should touch another gamer's dice/mini/ANYTHING without explicit permission from the player, I just didn't include it in the post because I knew he probably never played the game before and therefore wouldn't know anything of common etiquette.
I am somewhat new to this forum. Been lurking for a while but this thread and prompted me to make my first post :)
If this player had broken a 30 dollar mini of mine, there would have been some serious issues. It is about respect for other peoples property. You don't break someones stuff and not offer to at least pay for it. And it doesn't seem like this guy even cares he broke it. He would have been booted from my group instantly,. Goodbye. Pack up your stuff and get out.
I understand about you not wanting to lose his wife as a player. It sounds like she really likes the game and it is a shame she is married to a meathead. If they argue in public on a regular basis, the marriage is probably on a rocky road as it is. Every couple I have encountered that argues in public usually ends in a break-up or divorce. It is not a healthy relationship.
As for the covid development, she might not have known she had it. My son just tested positive and he has shown no signs of being sick at all (thank god). If she was coughing at the table or had other symptoms, then she should have stayed away from the game. Unfortunately with covid, there are a lot of people who still believe it is fake. Not sure if she falls into this category or not but even if she doesn't believe covid is real and she was sick, she still should have stayed away from the group just out of respect for the other players.
Yeah, when I sit him down and talk to him I plan on making it clear that he should offer to pay for that mini.
As far as Covid goes she claims that she didn’t have symptoms soI supposeI oweherthe benefit of the doubt. I am runnin short on “benefits of the doubt” though.
I am somewhat new to this forum. Been lurking for a while but this thread and prompted me to make my first post :)
If this player had broken a 30 dollar mini of mine, there would have been some serious issues. It is about respect for other peoples property. You don't break someones stuff and not offer to at least pay for it. And it doesn't seem like this guy even cares he broke it. He would have been booted from my group instantly,. Goodbye. Pack up your stuff and get out.
I understand about you not wanting to lose his wife as a player. It sounds like she really likes the game and it is a shame she is married to a meathead. If they argue in public on a regular basis, the marriage is probably on a rocky road as it is. Every couple I have encountered that argues in public usually ends in a break-up or divorce. It is not a healthy relationship.
As for the covid development, she might not have known she had it. My son just tested positive and he has shown no signs of being sick at all (thank god). If she was coughing at the table or had other symptoms, then she should have stayed away from the game. Unfortunately with covid, there are a lot of people who still believe it is fake. Not sure if she falls into this category or not but even if she doesn't believe covid is real and she was sick, she still should have stayed away from the group just out of respect for the other players.
Yeah, when I sit him down and talk to him I plan on making it clear that he should offer to pay for that mini.
As far as Covid goes she claims that she didn’t have symptoms soI supposeI oweherthe benefit of the doubt. I am runnin short on “benefits of the doubt” though.
I don't blame you on the covid situation. It affects everyone differently. Some more seriously than others.
I really hope this guy gets it with the mini situation as well as his actions at the table. I have been lucky in my gaming experience and have not had to deal with "that guy" at my table. Good luck to you and I hope all goes well.
We had our session today, so I wanted to post an update.
We sat our problem player down, my co-DM and I and had a frank discussion with him about the way he has been playing. I started by telling him that the other players have not been having fun at the last two sessions, which is absolutely true. We had an discussion via text over the last couple of weeks and we all agreed that his play was a problem and it was interfering with their enjoyment of the game.
I told him that he was making decisions that were logically indefensible and that caused us to spend an inordinate amount of time focused on his character to the exclusion of the rest of the table. I went on to say that we wanted him to think more carefully about how he played his character and how it affected the other players at the table.
He immediately shot back with "Well on my character sheet it says I never give up so that's why I (attacked those six powerful NPCs, kept attacking the skull, went off alone, etc.). I told him that there were many ways to play a character who never gives up. You can have him swear an oath of vengeance or roleplay calling the other characters cowards. He dug in and said that he was going to play the character the way he wanted to.
Well, I told him truly that I was busy cooking dinner for everyone so I didn't have the time to expand on my suggestions but I recommended he stop making indefensible decisions and stop hogging the spotlight. I didn't bother to listen to his response. My co-DM really did some heavy lifting, he sat on my porch for half-an-hour before the game started explaining the basics of roleplaying to him. He finally got him to agree that if he were facing an army of 10,000 men that he wouldn't just go off and attack them all and that surrendering or running away wouldn't be "giving up."
I had pretty low hopes for the session. We did our session zero and we covered everything in the previous post. Metagaming, table talk, hogging the spotlight, and--most importantly--what kind of game we wanted to play. He seemed uncharacteristically silent throughout the conversation, but he gave his feedback when we asked him questions and he asked his own questions when he wanted to know something.
I was admittedly a little authoritative with the table during the session. I made sure things moved forward and that everyone was taking their turns in a timely manner. I wanted to show the table that I meant business. He was pretty well behaved. At one point, in the middle of a pursuit, he asked if he could take a short rest, to which the rest of the table politely scoffed. One other player, also a dwarf, said in character "What kind of dwarven warrior are you to rest when our enemies are at our heels." He didn't persist and just moved on. Interestingly, he played his character pretty well otherwise. He is a fighter with the protection fighting style and quite a few times he positioned himself just so he could defend another player. At one point he was down to a quarter of his hit points and when another player went to heal him he said, "Don't, the monster is almost dead, I can hold out for another round." I was pleasantly surprised as EVERYTHING up to this point forecast him being a problem.
One player remarked that he looked like he had his "tail between his legs." I think that the combination of the indisputable logic of my co-DM coupled with the knowledge that we meant business resulted in a "come to Jesus" attitude. I don't think we are out of the woods yet, now we have to embrace him and let him know that we like him so much better this way: reward good behavior. I am cautiously optimistic.
Also, his wife played well, enjoyed herself and did not get dragged into this mess. I am especially grateful to the people who suggested we leave her out of the equation. It's not her job to manage her husband. He is an adult after all. A thousand thanks to everyone who gave me their help and feedback. I will continue to provide updates as I think this could be a good reference for other DMs dealing with problem players.
Edit: I almost didn't mention this because I don't want to sound arrogant or manipulative and it is not the reason that I did these things but when his wife was sick I made her a gallon of chicken soup, and my chicken soup is legit awesome. i also cooked the whole table a nice meal before the session (a tradition in our group). It's pretty hard to get angry at someone who is feeding you, just sayin' ;)
Thanks for the super update, I think it's really invaluable to learn how thing play out from a given situation and I'm especially happy that things seem to be going so well now for the entire group... finger's crossed :)
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“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
This is the final update. I am pleased to say that the player has made a complete 180. We just had another session and he was great. I am really kind of floored by how well he has adapted to the table dynamics and roleplaying. He may be as much of a natural as his wife in fact.
In one particularly tough encounter, where the PCs were taking a lot of damage, he had the brilliant idea to use his big 20 strength to brace the door and hold back half of the reinforcements streaming through. He stood in a blade barrier that the bard had thrown up for a round and he may have turned the fight by himself. He also had a great roleplaying moment where he, a lawful evil character, was stealing stone beads from dwarven tombs because I said that they would be worth about a GP each and he and the other dwarven character in the group, Lawful Good, got into a fistfight. It was great fun. He later asked if it was ok that he did that and I told him honestly that it was great!
Thanks again for all the help. I hope that someone else finds this thread as useful as I have.
Warm Regards,
Phazzle
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But it is also very understandable when a new player comes in and tries learning the game and understanding that no it is not a realistic RPG, he may not see it as dictating the rules but more understanding them.
As for something you mentioned at the start about him going for the called shot to the eye, I totally let my players tell me how they are attacking, it doesn’t affect the hit or damage but it does feed into the narriative.
“Ko what are you doing”
“I am going to take a shot, trying to get him through the eye”
Rolls a 16 to hit (just hits) and then 6 damage
“your arrow fires out towards his head, at the last minute he moves and instead of plowing into his eyeball it catches the side of his head leaving a deep gash”
Had the player rolled a higher to hit, or more damage, then he may have got nearer to the eye. In real terms it has no effect but working these little narrative points into your combat may give him more of a sense of his own agency. Although I will say from your explanation you certainly gave him slot of that by allowing him to consta fight the skull.
They need to be removed from the group. I would kick them both out.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
We announced at the table that the mini was $30 to $40. We also said we could glue it. I only added that in to show his aggressive disposition. His behavior suggests that he’s not not a tool.
He broke someone else's stuff. It doesn't matter if it costs $30 or 30 cents. You don't get to do that.
I'm sorry but you are a lot more generous with this guy and his wife than I would be. I work hard as a DM. I do not do it to have my nights ruined. If someone is ruining sessions, bullying me, making me afraid to even bring up legit issues, etc., I am not going to DM.
The minute that the case becomes that I could be having a more pleasant time not DMing than DMing, I'm done.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Oh and the plot thickens! Now I hear that wife has Covid and likely had it at the table. If she had symptoms that is unforgivable. I would have to kick her on principle. One of my players is unvaccinated. When I had a sniffle last month I stayed home like a responsible person.
No way, another gamer wouldn't even touch another person's mini.
He needs to pay for it.
RE: The COVID stuff? WTF?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I am somewhat new to this forum. Been lurking for a while but this thread and prompted me to make my first post :)
If this player had broken a 30 dollar mini of mine, there would have been some serious issues. It is about respect for other peoples property. You don't break someones stuff and not offer to at least pay for it. And it doesn't seem like this guy even cares he broke it. He would have been booted from my group instantly,. Goodbye. Pack up your stuff and get out.
I understand about you not wanting to lose his wife as a player. It sounds like she really likes the game and it is a shame she is married to a meathead. If they argue in public on a regular basis, the marriage is probably on a rocky road as it is. Every couple I have encountered that argues in public usually ends in a break-up or divorce. It is not a healthy relationship.
As for the covid development, she might not have known she had it. My son just tested positive and he has shown no signs of being sick at all (thank god). If she was coughing at the table or had other symptoms, then she should have stayed away from the game. Unfortunately with covid, there are a lot of people who still believe it is fake. Not sure if she falls into this category or not but even if she doesn't believe covid is real and she was sick, she still should have stayed away from the group just out of respect for the other players.
No one should touch another gamer's dice/mini/ANYTHING without explicit permission from the player, I just didn't include it in the post because I knew he probably never played the game before and therefore wouldn't know anything of common etiquette.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Yeah, when I sit him down and talk to him I plan on making it clear that he should offer to pay for that mini.
As far as Covid goes she claims that she didn’t have symptoms soI supposeI oweherthe benefit of the doubt. I am runnin short on “benefits of the doubt” though.
I don't blame you on the covid situation. It affects everyone differently. Some more seriously than others.
I really hope this guy gets it with the mini situation as well as his actions at the table. I have been lucky in my gaming experience and have not had to deal with "that guy" at my table. Good luck to you and I hope all goes well.
We had our session today, so I wanted to post an update.
We sat our problem player down, my co-DM and I and had a frank discussion with him about the way he has been playing. I started by telling him that the other players have not been having fun at the last two sessions, which is absolutely true. We had an discussion via text over the last couple of weeks and we all agreed that his play was a problem and it was interfering with their enjoyment of the game.
I told him that he was making decisions that were logically indefensible and that caused us to spend an inordinate amount of time focused on his character to the exclusion of the rest of the table. I went on to say that we wanted him to think more carefully about how he played his character and how it affected the other players at the table.
He immediately shot back with "Well on my character sheet it says I never give up so that's why I (attacked those six powerful NPCs, kept attacking the skull, went off alone, etc.). I told him that there were many ways to play a character who never gives up. You can have him swear an oath of vengeance or roleplay calling the other characters cowards. He dug in and said that he was going to play the character the way he wanted to.
Well, I told him truly that I was busy cooking dinner for everyone so I didn't have the time to expand on my suggestions but I recommended he stop making indefensible decisions and stop hogging the spotlight. I didn't bother to listen to his response. My co-DM really did some heavy lifting, he sat on my porch for half-an-hour before the game started explaining the basics of roleplaying to him. He finally got him to agree that if he were facing an army of 10,000 men that he wouldn't just go off and attack them all and that surrendering or running away wouldn't be "giving up."
I had pretty low hopes for the session. We did our session zero and we covered everything in the previous post. Metagaming, table talk, hogging the spotlight, and--most importantly--what kind of game we wanted to play. He seemed uncharacteristically silent throughout the conversation, but he gave his feedback when we asked him questions and he asked his own questions when he wanted to know something.
I was admittedly a little authoritative with the table during the session. I made sure things moved forward and that everyone was taking their turns in a timely manner. I wanted to show the table that I meant business. He was pretty well behaved. At one point, in the middle of a pursuit, he asked if he could take a short rest, to which the rest of the table politely scoffed. One other player, also a dwarf, said in character "What kind of dwarven warrior are you to rest when our enemies are at our heels." He didn't persist and just moved on. Interestingly, he played his character pretty well otherwise. He is a fighter with the protection fighting style and quite a few times he positioned himself just so he could defend another player. At one point he was down to a quarter of his hit points and when another player went to heal him he said, "Don't, the monster is almost dead, I can hold out for another round." I was pleasantly surprised as EVERYTHING up to this point forecast him being a problem.
One player remarked that he looked like he had his "tail between his legs." I think that the combination of the indisputable logic of my co-DM coupled with the knowledge that we meant business resulted in a "come to Jesus" attitude. I don't think we are out of the woods yet, now we have to embrace him and let him know that we like him so much better this way: reward good behavior. I am cautiously optimistic.
Also, his wife played well, enjoyed herself and did not get dragged into this mess. I am especially grateful to the people who suggested we leave her out of the equation. It's not her job to manage her husband. He is an adult after all. A thousand thanks to everyone who gave me their help and feedback. I will continue to provide updates as I think this could be a good reference for other DMs dealing with problem players.
Edit: I almost didn't mention this because I don't want to sound arrogant or manipulative and it is not the reason that I did these things but when his wife was sick I made her a gallon of chicken soup, and my chicken soup is legit awesome. i also cooked the whole table a nice meal before the session (a tradition in our group). It's pretty hard to get angry at someone who is feeding you, just sayin' ;)
Thanks for the super update, I think it's really invaluable to learn how thing play out from a given situation and I'm especially happy that things seem to be going so well now for the entire group... finger's crossed :)
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
This is the final update. I am pleased to say that the player has made a complete 180. We just had another session and he was great. I am really kind of floored by how well he has adapted to the table dynamics and roleplaying. He may be as much of a natural as his wife in fact.
In one particularly tough encounter, where the PCs were taking a lot of damage, he had the brilliant idea to use his big 20 strength to brace the door and hold back half of the reinforcements streaming through. He stood in a blade barrier that the bard had thrown up for a round and he may have turned the fight by himself. He also had a great roleplaying moment where he, a lawful evil character, was stealing stone beads from dwarven tombs because I said that they would be worth about a GP each and he and the other dwarven character in the group, Lawful Good, got into a fistfight. It was great fun. He later asked if it was ok that he did that and I told him honestly that it was great!
Thanks again for all the help. I hope that someone else finds this thread as useful as I have.
Warm Regards,
Phazzle