So i'm stuck on this idea where my current Big Bad is a being that the gods want dead, and since they can't just smite her, they've taken to sending "the chosen one(s)" . Problem is, i'm having some real difficulty in figure out a reasonable excuse for why the gods hate this woman so much. I know EXACTLY why she hates them, and why she wants to see the god's pulled from the heavens and broken on the rocks of the material plane. All i can think of, is that either she possesses some kind of ability that threatens them, or perhaps the gods become aware of a prophecy that she will one day raise an army and threaten their rule.
Anyone got any good ideas on why the gods would take a personal interest in the actions of a mortal being? Has anyone ever had a character who managed to piss off one or more gods? What did they do?
You've already given them their reason: fear. You just need to figure out what / how this woman poses a threat to the Gods, and they will fear that she can do it. Or, they will be haughty and dismiss her until one of them goes down. Then, you'll have your motivation to fear, loathe and hate her.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
If you look at ancient religions and other fantasy, you can see that Gods are often quite petty. The Greek gods basically started the Trojan War because one goddess got pissed that a mortal man said someone else was pettier, the Christian god called for multiple genocides becuase people happened to live in the wrong places, basically, and so on.
The fear part is a good start. Perhaps the gods don't even really know why they fear the BBE (and you can always decide on that later). Maybe it's because there's a prophecy (like the BBE is a godslayer reborn), maybe their ancestor insulted one of the gods, maybe the BBE is the unholy union between good and evil (like the Genesis in the Preacher) or maybe the gods are just petty ******** who made a bet to see who could **** up this persons life the most? And then when the person found out they swore to take vengeance on the gods?
As a side note, this whole "divine hitmen" plot kind of makes it seem that it is the PC, or at least their gods, who are the bad guys. You can have some fun moral twists with that. :)
A prophecy dictates that any god who faces her will fall, and so they must send others to face her.
She serves a power which she is diverting prayers to - like how the greek gods are depicted as needing mortal prayers to fuel them, if she is denying them this and diverting them to another power who can rise up to destroy the gods, then that's a problem. Their waning power makes them weak, so they send in others who they feel no shame in risking.
She is a demigod and the gods seek to silence her. To strike her would incite a war with her god parent, so they seek to silence her subtly.
She is the demigod child of a god, and that god seeks to erase her before she lays claim to any godhood. The god cannot trust themselves to face her themselves, for fear that they will not be able to make themselves smite her. They instead tell the party of her evils and plays them to do their dirty work for them.
She is actually prophesized to save the world/bring order/ etc., and the trickster god doesn't want this, so they disguise themselves as a good god and request the party to slay her. Then they play with both her and the party whilst trying to make sure she ultimately dies.
The woman tore down a temple, or statue. That should gain the ire of the gods.
which of these "Gods" do the players characters follow? what are the ideologies of those gods? are there any commonalities between them if so maybe have BBG committing an egregious plan that perverts exactly that area of the gods common ideology
I ask about that gods/ideologies the players characters follow because I think it would add something if it in some way becomes personal something that allows the players to roleplay there characters outrage at the BBG
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
A little more information about your Gods and your BBE is needed. There are a lot of generic reasons why your gods could hate/fear the BBE.
As an Example. If your gods where mortal beeings, who became "immortal" because the found a way to steal magical energy from the material plane (making it the mundane world it is today in your setting) to fuel their own power and wove a spell over the plane, so that worship of the feeds ths contract. Your BBEG could have found a way to break this spell and return the magic to the material plane. The knowledge she has gained allowe her to easily defeat any god, that face her by cutting him/her of from the magical power of the spell.
So depending on your world there could be more specific reasons, how your BBEG could threat the gods.
If it takes place in The Forgotten Realms or a realm connected to them, you could have her know the spell Karsus's avatar, a spell that allows you to temporarily take control of the powers of a god and in lore led to the death of a greater deity. You could just have a the gods trying to kill her just for having that knowledge.
1) she can deconsecrate holy ground/objects thus stripping gods of their ability to manifest their will on to the material plane. Or in other words, she possesses the ability to literally banish a god, thus severing them from the plane (which means they can't gain the benefits of their followers worship).
2) The whole prophecy thing. Like one day an oracle sees a vision (one not given to them by their respective god). That this woman shall raise an army of her children, who will see the gods bleed. Now Gods being Gods, they are both pissed that a moral should have the gall to challenge them... and are terrified that mortals would one day come and spill their divine blood.
The big plot twist is that the prophecy comes true BECAUSE the gods have been sending their "chosen one(s)" to kill this woman. But more then that, the army that the gods were so terrified would one day come for them. That army is made up of those chosen ones, the men and women that the gods infused with immense divine power. Having faced the hag and been utterly outmatched, they return now to seek vengeance against the gods, to see justice done.
The gods are immortal beings. They sustain themselves upon the prayers of the devoted, using mortal souls to maintain their power (Think more Valhalla, and less engine fueled by souls). Since the gods can not fully manifest upon the world, but must have some physical connection to it in order to gain the benefits of worship, they all have bound part of themselves into the world. Some physical manifestation of their divine being. To destroy this manifestation, would be the same as destroying some part of the god's physical form. Best way i can describe it, would be to say imagine if someone cut off your hand then hit it with a disintegrate spell. Sure the god may eventually be able to grow a new hand (by siphoning off power from people's prayers), but the process would take eons and be EXTREAMLY painful.
I'm thinking this woman, this hag, was born with or came to possess the ability to deconsecrate holy lands/objects. She could, if she so desired, sever the connection between god and plane. This would both destroy the physical manifestation while also doing a fair bit of damage to the god's soul. I say soul, because i can't really think of a better way to describe the power that the gods give their disciples that allow them to cast their spells. I like to imagine it being similar to a very rich person giving out loans, then suddenly one day they are booted from the country. Those who were borrowing from them can no longer borrow more, but at the same time the rich person has zero ways to get back that money they loaned out.
In the Inheritance cycle, there’s a character who was accidentally cursed as an infant so that she was made aware of every creature nearby’s pains, and therefore themselves. Later in the series, the curse was altered so that she was no longer compelled to prevent such pain, but still was aware of it. She became the most dangerous person in the entire world, for with a few words she could annihilate a person using their fear, for what is fear but pain? Even the most powerful person in the world feared her so much he went to great lengths to keep her silent when she met him. Such a person, I’d wager, is worth the fear of the gods.
If the gods themselves have any reason to fear someone, they squash them. If they can't do it personally, they send their most powerful agents to do this for them. That would be a Solar, a CR 23 variety of Angel. Is your Big Bad able to stand up to a Solar? If so, is your party on that kind of power level? As a Tier 4 one shot game, it could be fun I guess.
I've never been in or known anyone who played at the Tier 4 level in 5th Edition. My past experience isn't helpful, since the rules have changed so much.
The idea of someone who has angered the gods and thus the gods send the party to work their wills is a good one. Unless she had enough power to scare them, and if the Greek gods are any indication, it doesn't take much to get the gods angry, but to scare them? That takes godlike power.
I set my world up, such that beings beyond a certain level of power can not enter the plane from outside. A kind of Divine Gate (i know i'm stealing the name from CR, but i'm blanking on a better name) meant to keep extremely powerful being from directly assaulting the plane. A combination of the Gate, interpersonal agreements, and POWERFUL magic contracts keep the gods from directly dealing with mortal beings. Nor can they take direct indirect action (sending a divine hit squad) against mortals. The most a god can do is empower mortals to deal with other mortals, that's not to say that a god's blessings can't be exorbitant by mortal standards.
As for a power to scare the gods, i'm still liking the idea of being able to banish them from the plane, cutting them off from a source of immense power while also damaging their physical body and stripping some of their power (casters maintain the power to cast their prepared spells, they just don't get new spells/ refresh their used spell slots after a long rest).
1) she can deconsecrate holy ground/objects thus stripping gods of their ability to manifest their will on to the material plane. Or in other words, she possesses the ability to literally banish a god, thus severing them from the plane (which means they can't gain the benefits of their followers worship).
2) The whole prophecy thing. Like one day an oracle sees a vision (one not given to them by their respective god). That this woman shall raise an army of her children, who will see the gods bleed. Now Gods being Gods, they are both pissed that a moral should have the gall to challenge them... and are terrified that mortals would one day come and spill their divine blood.
The big plot twist is that the prophecy comes true BECAUSE the gods have been sending their "chosen one(s)" to kill this woman. But more then that, the army that the gods were so terrified would one day come for them. That army is made up of those chosen ones, the men and women that the gods infused with immense divine power. Having faced the hag and been utterly outmatched, they return now to seek vengeance against the gods, to see justice done.
Both of these (or a combination) can work. Again, I feel that you have the perfect opporutnity to make this campaign morally ambiguous, especially if you include elements of option 2. :)
The gods are immortal beings. They sustain themselves upon the prayers of the devoted, using mortal souls to maintain their power (Think more Valhalla, and less engine fueled by souls).
The Norse gods were perfectly capable to maifest on the mortal plane and they didn't need prayers to sustain themselves. They ate apples.
from your replies @Zhule I'm taking it is all the gods of your worlds pantheon against your BBEG I think giving your BBEG god killing powers sets them up as unbeatable and brings about the consequence that the players characters even if they beat this potential god killer, they know to much and become a threat to the pantheon... You mention a "Divine Gate" in your world maybe the BBEG has the potential of circumventing its restriction and this is why they are seen as a threat to the gods
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
Your BBEG could have stumbled upon the secret to removing all of the Gods from their home planes and forcing them to become mortal and live among their people on the Material Plane. Think back to the "Time of Troubles" when all of the Gods were cast down and made mortal. Your "Mortal Gods" would probably want to go into hiding. Maybe that old lady that asked for help was really a God in disguise. The old traveler that looks similar to Deckard Cain... who knows?!
Your BBEG doesn't need to be able to kill them outright, just disable them and make them killable. That could be the literal "One Thing" that they possess the power to do. Could be the leader of a Cult or a worshiper of some Elder Evil. Make them some Homebrew Kuo-Toa that worships a divine salad fork aka, "The Dinglehopper". Come up with something fun!
This would keep the power level required small and keep the motivation of the Gods what it is. This would also provide a motivation to seek help from the "Chosen Ones" as the Gods themselves would effectively be powerless or much less powerful than required to handle this on their own. Your PCs could then find and destroy or secure the MacGuffin that is required to complete the rite/ritual/ceremony. Give them a couple of keys that they can find and use to prevent your BBEG from success besides "hit it till we win".
The idea of the Celestials, Devils and Demons intervening isn't a bad one, but only as they try to seek out and protect their patron, or kill their patron's enemies. Could also involve cultists. Secondary plot.
Power vacuum created could lead to beings like Tiamat and Bahamut vying to fill the void...just throwing spaghetti to see what sticks here.
Potentially this could be done one God at a time so that each deity requires a specific MacGuffin to be banished and the ritual repeated. As the Gods disappear from their home, their power diminishes to their followers over the course of some time. This could be used to show the PCs why it's important to do the thing.
Downfall is that you would have a rather chaotic story loop for explaining why magic does/doesn't work. Also, the wild magic table.
Old version artifacts like Jathiman Dagger and Godsbane.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So i'm stuck on this idea where my current Big Bad is a being that the gods want dead, and since they can't just smite her, they've taken to sending "the chosen one(s)" . Problem is, i'm having some real difficulty in figure out a reasonable excuse for why the gods hate this woman so much. I know EXACTLY why she hates them, and why she wants to see the god's pulled from the heavens and broken on the rocks of the material plane. All i can think of, is that either she possesses some kind of ability that threatens them, or perhaps the gods become aware of a prophecy that she will one day raise an army and threaten their rule.
Anyone got any good ideas on why the gods would take a personal interest in the actions of a mortal being? Has anyone ever had a character who managed to piss off one or more gods? What did they do?
You've already given them their reason: fear. You just need to figure out what / how this woman poses a threat to the Gods, and they will fear that she can do it. Or, they will be haughty and dismiss her until one of them goes down. Then, you'll have your motivation to fear, loathe and hate her.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
If you look at ancient religions and other fantasy, you can see that Gods are often quite petty. The Greek gods basically started the Trojan War because one goddess got pissed that a mortal man said someone else was pettier, the Christian god called for multiple genocides becuase people happened to live in the wrong places, basically, and so on.
The fear part is a good start. Perhaps the gods don't even really know why they fear the BBE (and you can always decide on that later). Maybe it's because there's a prophecy (like the BBE is a godslayer reborn), maybe their ancestor insulted one of the gods, maybe the BBE is the unholy union between good and evil (like the Genesis in the Preacher) or maybe the gods are just petty ******** who made a bet to see who could **** up this persons life the most? And then when the person found out they swore to take vengeance on the gods?
As a side note, this whole "divine hitmen" plot kind of makes it seem that it is the PC, or at least their gods, who are the bad guys. You can have some fun moral twists with that. :)
Options include:
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
which of these "Gods" do the players characters follow? what are the ideologies of those gods? are there any commonalities between them if so maybe have BBG committing an egregious plan that perverts exactly that area of the gods common ideology
I ask about that gods/ideologies the players characters follow because I think it would add something if it in some way becomes personal something that allows the players to roleplay there characters outrage at the BBG
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
A little more information about your Gods and your BBE is needed. There are a lot of generic reasons why your gods could hate/fear the BBE.
As an Example. If your gods where mortal beeings, who became "immortal" because the found a way to steal magical energy from the material plane (making it the mundane world it is today in your setting) to fuel their own power and wove a spell over the plane, so that worship of the feeds ths contract. Your BBEG could have found a way to break this spell and return the magic to the material plane. The knowledge she has gained allowe her to easily defeat any god, that face her by cutting him/her of from the magical power of the spell.
So depending on your world there could be more specific reasons, how your BBEG could threat the gods.
They're not, but it's a fun concept.
She represents some rival ancient force of "other gods" who will come back to power if she succeeds?
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
If it takes place in The Forgotten Realms or a realm connected to them, you could have her know the spell Karsus's avatar, a spell that allows you to temporarily take control of the powers of a god and in lore led to the death of a greater deity. You could just have a the gods trying to kill her just for having that knowledge.
My two big ideas are currently are either;
1) she can deconsecrate holy ground/objects thus stripping gods of their ability to manifest their will on to the material plane. Or in other words, she possesses the ability to literally banish a god, thus severing them from the plane (which means they can't gain the benefits of their followers worship).
2) The whole prophecy thing. Like one day an oracle sees a vision (one not given to them by their respective god). That this woman shall raise an army of her children, who will see the gods bleed. Now Gods being Gods, they are both pissed that a moral should have the gall to challenge them... and are terrified that mortals would one day come and spill their divine blood.
The big plot twist is that the prophecy comes true BECAUSE the gods have been sending their "chosen one(s)" to kill this woman. But more then that, the army that the gods were so terrified would one day come for them. That army is made up of those chosen ones, the men and women that the gods infused with immense divine power. Having faced the hag and been utterly outmatched, they return now to seek vengeance against the gods, to see justice done.
The gods are immortal beings. They sustain themselves upon the prayers of the devoted, using mortal souls to maintain their power (Think more Valhalla, and less engine fueled by souls). Since the gods can not fully manifest upon the world, but must have some physical connection to it in order to gain the benefits of worship, they all have bound part of themselves into the world. Some physical manifestation of their divine being. To destroy this manifestation, would be the same as destroying some part of the god's physical form. Best way i can describe it, would be to say imagine if someone cut off your hand then hit it with a disintegrate spell. Sure the god may eventually be able to grow a new hand (by siphoning off power from people's prayers), but the process would take eons and be EXTREAMLY painful.
I'm thinking this woman, this hag, was born with or came to possess the ability to deconsecrate holy lands/objects. She could, if she so desired, sever the connection between god and plane. This would both destroy the physical manifestation while also doing a fair bit of damage to the god's soul. I say soul, because i can't really think of a better way to describe the power that the gods give their disciples that allow them to cast their spells. I like to imagine it being similar to a very rich person giving out loans, then suddenly one day they are booted from the country. Those who were borrowing from them can no longer borrow more, but at the same time the rich person has zero ways to get back that money they loaned out.
In the Inheritance cycle, there’s a character who was accidentally cursed as an infant so that she was made aware of every creature nearby’s pains, and therefore themselves. Later in the series, the curse was altered so that she was no longer compelled to prevent such pain, but still was aware of it. She became the most dangerous person in the entire world, for with a few words she could annihilate a person using their fear, for what is fear but pain? Even the most powerful person in the world feared her so much he went to great lengths to keep her silent when she met him. Such a person, I’d wager, is worth the fear of the gods.
Come participate in the Competition of the Finest Brews, Edition XXVIII?
My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
If the gods themselves have any reason to fear someone, they squash them. If they can't do it personally, they send their most powerful agents to do this for them. That would be a Solar, a CR 23 variety of Angel. Is your Big Bad able to stand up to a Solar? If so, is your party on that kind of power level? As a Tier 4 one shot game, it could be fun I guess.
I've never been in or known anyone who played at the Tier 4 level in 5th Edition. My past experience isn't helpful, since the rules have changed so much.
The idea of someone who has angered the gods and thus the gods send the party to work their wills is a good one. Unless she had enough power to scare them, and if the Greek gods are any indication, it doesn't take much to get the gods angry, but to scare them? That takes godlike power.
<Insert clever signature here>
I set my world up, such that beings beyond a certain level of power can not enter the plane from outside. A kind of Divine Gate (i know i'm stealing the name from CR, but i'm blanking on a better name) meant to keep extremely powerful being from directly assaulting the plane. A combination of the Gate, interpersonal agreements, and POWERFUL magic contracts keep the gods from directly dealing with mortal beings. Nor can they take direct indirect action (sending a divine hit squad) against mortals. The most a god can do is empower mortals to deal with other mortals, that's not to say that a god's blessings can't be exorbitant by mortal standards.
As for a power to scare the gods, i'm still liking the idea of being able to banish them from the plane, cutting them off from a source of immense power while also damaging their physical body and stripping some of their power (casters maintain the power to cast their prepared spells, they just don't get new spells/ refresh their used spell slots after a long rest).
Ok. So we agree. The power to banish a god from a plane is something only another god would be able to do.
<Insert clever signature here>
Yes, but ability to banish isn’t the only way to make a god fear you.
Come participate in the Competition of the Finest Brews, Edition XXVIII?
My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
The 90's Hercules/Xena introduced Rind blood as something that can kill any god. I always thought that was pretty cool.
Both of these (or a combination) can work. Again, I feel that you have the perfect opporutnity to make this campaign morally ambiguous, especially if you include elements of option 2. :)
The Norse gods were perfectly capable to maifest on the mortal plane and they didn't need prayers to sustain themselves. They ate apples.
from your replies @Zhule I'm taking it is all the gods of your worlds pantheon against your BBEG
I think giving your BBEG god killing powers sets them up as unbeatable and brings about the consequence that the players characters even if they beat this potential god killer, they know to much and become a threat to the pantheon...
You mention a "Divine Gate" in your world maybe the BBEG has the potential of circumventing its restriction and this is why they are seen as a threat to the gods
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
Your BBEG could have stumbled upon the secret to removing all of the Gods from their home planes and forcing them to become mortal and live among their people on the Material Plane. Think back to the "Time of Troubles" when all of the Gods were cast down and made mortal. Your "Mortal Gods" would probably want to go into hiding. Maybe that old lady that asked for help was really a God in disguise. The old traveler that looks similar to Deckard Cain... who knows?!
Your BBEG doesn't need to be able to kill them outright, just disable them and make them killable. That could be the literal "One Thing" that they possess the power to do. Could be the leader of a Cult or a worshiper of some Elder Evil. Make them some Homebrew Kuo-Toa that worships a divine salad fork aka, "The Dinglehopper". Come up with something fun!
This would keep the power level required small and keep the motivation of the Gods what it is. This would also provide a motivation to seek help from the "Chosen Ones" as the Gods themselves would effectively be powerless or much less powerful than required to handle this on their own. Your PCs could then find and destroy or secure the MacGuffin that is required to complete the rite/ritual/ceremony. Give them a couple of keys that they can find and use to prevent your BBEG from success besides "hit it till we win".
The idea of the Celestials, Devils and Demons intervening isn't a bad one, but only as they try to seek out and protect their patron, or kill their patron's enemies. Could also involve cultists. Secondary plot.
Power vacuum created could lead to beings like Tiamat and Bahamut vying to fill the void...just throwing spaghetti to see what sticks here.
Potentially this could be done one God at a time so that each deity requires a specific MacGuffin to be banished and the ritual repeated. As the Gods disappear from their home, their power diminishes to their followers over the course of some time. This could be used to show the PCs why it's important to do the thing.
Downfall is that you would have a rather chaotic story loop for explaining why magic does/doesn't work. Also, the wild magic table.
Old version artifacts like Jathiman Dagger and Godsbane.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad