Suggestion requires that the course of action seem reasonable to the target. Now, some people may limit that to the case of the example: they can't be made to do anything suicidal. But I am a littlr more strict.
I basically treat it as a nat 20 Persuasion roll. It's not an automatic success, if you suggest a course of action contrary to their alignment or bonds. It might be, if you also have a high bonus to Persuasion.
If you allow even actions contrary to the NPCs interests, it's too powerful for a 2nd level spell. You could basically skip a whole adventure by Suggesting the BBEG to hand over the MacGuffin.
Yeah. Even the given example of a knight giving away their horse is pretty unreasonable. "My cherished partner that I've traveled with for years? Sure, seems reasonable to give him away." (I lost a pet a few months ago, and this example hurts thinking about).
Yeah, I like an added "can't have an unreasonable financial or sentimental cost" clause to it. Of course wording does matter and can make things seem more or less reasonable even if there is a high cost.
Yeah. Even the given example of a knight giving away their horse is pretty unreasonable. "My cherished partner that I've traveled with for years? Sure, seems reasonable to give him away." (I lost a pet a few months ago, and this example hurts thinking about).
Yeah, I like an added "can't have an unreasonable financial or sentimental cost" clause to it. Of course wording does matter and can make things seem more or less reasonable even if there is a high cost.
The Knight/Beggar example is made specifically because a Knight traditionally has virtues like “generosity”. Otherwise they’d have just used soldier and farmer, or similar. So it actually is reasonable. In my opinion, at least - this example is entirely valid.
Yeah. Even the given example of a knight giving away their horse is pretty unreasonable. "My cherished partner that I've traveled with for years? Sure, seems reasonable to give him away." (I lost a pet a few months ago, and this example hurts thinking about).
Yeah, I like an added "can't have an unreasonable financial or sentimental cost" clause to it. Of course wording does matter and can make things seem more or less reasonable even if there is a high cost.
Yes. Like I think the example could be plausible if the caster has like +8 Persuasion as well.
You could interpret the knight giving away their horse as to what should be considered "reasonable". Giving away a pricey but replacable possession to a person in need? Reasonable. Giving away the crown to the kingdom to your enemy or your firstborn to a Fey Lord? Probably not reasonable.
You could interpret the knight giving away their horse as to what should be considered "reasonable". Giving away a pricey but replacable possession to a person in need? Reasonable. Giving away the crown to the kingdom to your enemy or your firstborn to a Fey Lord? Probably not reasonable.
I would say that a crown is closer to "pricey but replaceable" and a trained animal/pet is closer to family than a possession.
If the knight's horse is not their personal horse that they have had for a long time and formed a bond with, then it would be reasonable.
You could interpret the knight giving away their horse as to what should be considered "reasonable". Giving away a pricey but replacable possession to a person in need? Reasonable. Giving away the crown to the kingdom to your enemy or your firstborn to a Fey Lord? Probably not reasonable.
I would say that a crown is closer to "pricey but replaceable" and a trained animal/pet is closer to family than a possession.
If the knight's horse is not their personal horse that they have had for a long time and formed a bond with, then it would be reasonable.
A kingodm isn't replacable. You do realize that "the crown to the kingdom" is a metaphor for the entire country, right? Like how "giving them the key to the city" often means not giving someone a literal key but rather to hand over control of that city to the other part. And not all knights bond with their horses, but that's beside the point.
You could interpret the knight giving away their horse as to what should be considered "reasonable". Giving away a pricey but replacable possession to a person in need? Reasonable. Giving away the crown to the kingdom to your enemy or your firstborn to a Fey Lord? Probably not reasonable.
I would say that a crown is closer to "pricey but replaceable" and a trained animal/pet is closer to family than a possession.
If the knight's horse is not their personal horse that they have had for a long time and formed a bond with, then it would be reasonable.
A kingodm isn't replacable. You do realize that "the crown to the kingdom" is a metaphor for the entire country, right? Like how "giving them the key to the city" often means not giving someone a literal key but rather to hand over control of that city to the other part. And not all knights bond with their horses, but that's beside the point.
A “key to the city” actually is often a literal key that is itself a physical metaphor for a city’s appreciation for some service rather than any real power.
There’s no need to belittle someone for not picking up on your use of a metaphor. You can clarify without being mean.
You could interpret the knight giving away their horse as to what should be considered "reasonable". Giving away a pricey but replacable possession to a person in need? Reasonable. Giving away the crown to the kingdom to your enemy or your firstborn to a Fey Lord? Probably not reasonable.
I would say that a crown is closer to "pricey but replaceable" and a trained animal/pet is closer to family than a possession.
If the knight's horse is not their personal horse that they have had for a long time and formed a bond with, then it would be reasonable.
A kingodm isn't replacable. You do realize that "the crown to the kingdom" is a metaphor for the entire country, right? Like how "giving them the key to the city" often means not giving someone a literal key but rather to hand over control of that city to the other part. And not all knights bond with their horses, but that's beside the point.
I did read that literally, sorry. We were talking about the giving away of tangible things after all. I don't think the spell could realistically give away a leadership position even if it didn't have the reasonable clause. Kingship isn't something that can be given away so easily or quickly. But that tangent isn't really relevant.
What is the point is that while not all knights bond with their mounts, not all don't. The wording doesn't indicate that it matters if it is a beloved pet or merely a tool and works either way. And that is a dangerous precedent.
Where is the line? If an animal that is both essential to your job and potentially very sentimental can be suggested to be given away, why not all of your food and money? Why not your house? Why not a family member?
That's why I don't like the example. I would have excepted a suggestion to give all their money to a peasant over this. And yes, I acknowledge that it is a house rule, and not RAW.
I think a Suggestion, worded well, might get the king to give away the physical crown. But I don't think authority over a kingdom can be irrevocably transfered in 8 hours. Even if the king thought it was reasonable while under the spell, after it wore off he'd reassert his authority, and his lieutenants would accept his legitimacy.
How many here would allow Suggestion to cause an enemy to exit combat and run away, effectively banishing it self?
Depends on how dutiful they are. If there are serious consequences for desertion, then no. If they are a true believer in the cause, then no. As I said, I treat it as a nat 20 Persuasion. Most Persuasion checks to defect will be 20 or more. More often 25 - 30. Occasionally if it’s a mercenary, then maybe as low as 15. But even a mercenary won’t change jobs on a whim.
I don’t think you can just say, “Run.” This isn’t Command, which is more powerful but more limited and shorter duration. You would have to give them a plausible reason why they should leave.
If I do deny a Suggestion for being unreasonable, I’ll try to make the NPC comply with the spirit of the request within the limit of what they think is reasonable. For example, if you tell a soldier to flee but they would face the death penalty for desertion, they might try to persuade the rest of their party, at advantage, to retreat.
How many here would allow Suggestion to cause an enemy to exit combat and run away, effectively banishing it self?
Depends on how dutiful they are. If there are serious consequences for desertion, then no. If they are a true believer in the cause, then no. As I said, I treat it as a nat 20 Persuasion. Most Persuasion checks to defect will be 20 or more. More often 25 - 30. Occasionally if it’s a mercenary, then maybe as low as 15. But even a mercenary won’t change jobs on a whim.
I don’t think you can just say, “Run.” This isn’t Command, which is more powerful but more limited and shorter duration. You would have to give them a plausible reason why they should leave.
You must fight a lot of soldiers and knights in your campaigns. I didn't even think of the enemy being lawful or honorable.
How many here would allow Suggestion to cause an enemy to exit combat and run away, effectively banishing it self?
Depends on how dutiful they are. If there are serious consequences for desertion, then no. If they are a true believer in the cause, then no. As I said, I treat it as a nat 20 Persuasion. Most Persuasion checks to defect will be 20 or more. More often 25 - 30. Occasionally if it’s a mercenary, then maybe as low as 15. But even a mercenary won’t change jobs on a whim.
I don’t think you can just say, “Run.” This isn’t Command, which is more powerful but more limited and shorter duration. You would have to give them a plausible reason why they should leave.
You must fight a lot of soldiers and knights in your campaigns. I didn't even think of the enemy being lawful or honorable.
If I'm a crime lord, and on a job one of my thugs runs off, deserting his crew. Well, I guess I have one less thug now. Because an example needs to be made.
You don't need to be honorable to know death awaits deserters.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
How many here would allow Suggestion to cause an enemy to exit combat and run away, effectively banishing it self?
Depends on how dutiful they are. If there are serious consequences for desertion, then no. If they are a true believer in the cause, then no. As I said, I treat it as a nat 20 Persuasion. Most Persuasion checks to defect will be 20 or more. More often 25 - 30. Occasionally if it’s a mercenary, then maybe as low as 15. But even a mercenary won’t change jobs on a whim.
I don’t think you can just say, “Run.” This isn’t Command, which is more powerful but more limited and shorter duration. You would have to give them a plausible reason why they should leave.
The spell involves the caster telling the target what to do. After 8 hours the soldier is going to be hunting down that caster - or reporting that caster to his superiors!
I think a Suggestion, worded well, might get the king to give away the physical crown. But I don't think authority over a kingdom can be irrevocably transfered in 8 hours. Even if the king thought it was reasonable while under the spell, after it wore off he'd reassert his authority, and his lieutenants would accept his legitimacy.
It doesn't even need 8 hours. The spell ends once the task is completed.
I think a Suggestion, worded well, might get the king to give away the physical crown. But I don't think authority over a kingdom can be irrevocably transfered in 8 hours. Even if the king thought it was reasonable while under the spell, after it wore off he'd reassert his authority, and his lieutenants would accept his legitimacy.
It doesn't even need 8 hours. The spell ends once the task is completed.
Quite right, which is why Suggestion is intrinsically more powerful if you give a suggestion that can't be completed. "Sit down" is a lot less powerful than "sit down until you finish counting and count to infinity".
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Suggestion requires that the course of action seem reasonable to the target. Now, some people may limit that to the case of the example: they can't be made to do anything suicidal. But I am a littlr more strict.
I basically treat it as a nat 20 Persuasion roll. It's not an automatic success, if you suggest a course of action contrary to their alignment or bonds. It might be, if you also have a high bonus to Persuasion.
If you allow even actions contrary to the NPCs interests, it's too powerful for a 2nd level spell. You could basically skip a whole adventure by Suggesting the BBEG to hand over the MacGuffin.
Yeah. Even the given example of a knight giving away their horse is pretty unreasonable. "My cherished partner that I've traveled with for years? Sure, seems reasonable to give him away." (I lost a pet a few months ago, and this example hurts thinking about).
Yeah, I like an added "can't have an unreasonable financial or sentimental cost" clause to it. Of course wording does matter and can make things seem more or less reasonable even if there is a high cost.
The Knight/Beggar example is made specifically because a Knight traditionally has virtues like “generosity”. Otherwise they’d have just used soldier and farmer, or similar. So it actually is reasonable. In my opinion, at least - this example is entirely valid.
Yes. Like I think the example could be plausible if the caster has like +8 Persuasion as well.
You could interpret the knight giving away their horse as to what should be considered "reasonable". Giving away a pricey but replacable possession to a person in need? Reasonable. Giving away the crown to the kingdom to your enemy or your firstborn to a Fey Lord? Probably not reasonable.
I would say that a crown is closer to "pricey but replaceable" and a trained animal/pet is closer to family than a possession.
If the knight's horse is not their personal horse that they have had for a long time and formed a bond with, then it would be reasonable.
A kingodm isn't replacable. You do realize that "the crown to the kingdom" is a metaphor for the entire country, right? Like how "giving them the key to the city" often means not giving someone a literal key but rather to hand over control of that city to the other part. And not all knights bond with their horses, but that's beside the point.
A “key to the city” actually is often a literal key that is itself a physical metaphor for a city’s appreciation for some service rather than any real power.
There’s no need to belittle someone for not picking up on your use of a metaphor. You can clarify without being mean.
I did read that literally, sorry. We were talking about the giving away of tangible things after all. I don't think the spell could realistically give away a leadership position even if it didn't have the reasonable clause. Kingship isn't something that can be given away so easily or quickly. But that tangent isn't really relevant.
What is the point is that while not all knights bond with their mounts, not all don't. The wording doesn't indicate that it matters if it is a beloved pet or merely a tool and works either way. And that is a dangerous precedent.
Where is the line? If an animal that is both essential to your job and potentially very sentimental can be suggested to be given away, why not all of your food and money? Why not your house? Why not a family member?
That's why I don't like the example. I would have excepted a suggestion to give all their money to a peasant over this. And yes, I acknowledge that it is a house rule, and not RAW.
I think a Suggestion, worded well, might get the king to give away the physical crown. But I don't think authority over a kingdom can be irrevocably transfered in 8 hours. Even if the king thought it was reasonable while under the spell, after it wore off he'd reassert his authority, and his lieutenants would accept his legitimacy.
How many here would allow Suggestion to cause an enemy to exit combat and run away, effectively banishing it self?
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
Yeah, as long as no one hurts it after, that should work.
Depends on how dutiful they are. If there are serious consequences for desertion, then no. If they are a true believer in the cause, then no. As I said, I treat it as a nat 20 Persuasion. Most Persuasion checks to defect will be 20 or more. More often 25 - 30. Occasionally if it’s a mercenary, then maybe as low as 15. But even a mercenary won’t change jobs on a whim.
I don’t think you can just say, “Run.” This isn’t Command, which is more powerful but more limited and shorter duration. You would have to give them a plausible reason why they should leave.
If I do deny a Suggestion for being unreasonable, I’ll try to make the NPC comply with the spirit of the request within the limit of what they think is reasonable. For example, if you tell a soldier to flee but they would face the death penalty for desertion, they might try to persuade the rest of their party, at advantage, to retreat.
You must fight a lot of soldiers and knights in your campaigns. I didn't even think of the enemy being lawful or honorable.
If I'm a crime lord, and on a job one of my thugs runs off, deserting his crew. Well, I guess I have one less thug now. Because an example needs to be made.
You don't need to be honorable to know death awaits deserters.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If somebody made the "suggestion" to give up my dog, I would tell them something special about where they could put their suggestion.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The spell involves the caster telling the target what to do. After 8 hours the soldier is going to be hunting down that caster - or reporting that caster to his superiors!
It doesn't even need 8 hours. The spell ends once the task is completed.
Quite right, which is why Suggestion is intrinsically more powerful if you give a suggestion that can't be completed. "Sit down" is a lot less powerful than "sit down until you finish counting and count to infinity".