I don't know if I can explain this "problem" I'm having. This might also be in my head or I've created this myself so I'd like to hear some opinions.
I feel like my players don't much care about preparing or inventing proper plans and I'd like to encourage more creative and strategic thinking before encounters they know are coming. During the adventure their battles have gone pretty well without major drawbacks because I've been lenient and gone easy on them if they are about to experience character death or even TPK. That doesn't mean they don't get hit or that they couldn't fall unconscious. I don't want them to actually die and make new characters at this point because it would affect storytelling and they are already lvl 14. I intend them to survive until they meet the BBEG, that's about level or two away.
I've been using Encounter builder and while I know the tool isn't perfect the encounters I've planned are far from deadly. I don't know if my players are using their character abilities properly or if it's just a combination of bad luck and not thinking ahead. So now I'm in a situation that I have lvl 14 party who trusts that their DM won't harm them permanently, they won't really die, and perhaps they think they will somehow survive whatever I throw at them no matter how they play. Last time we played my players knew what they were against, they knew they probably should prepare and plan before they face the enemy that was meant to be tough, instead they kind of shrugged and lets goed themselves to the encounter without a proper plan.
So, what should I do? I've never run campaign where players are on high(er) levels so I might have issues planning balanced fight that isn't easy or too hard. Should I make encounters challenging with real possibility of death? I know this will probably cause some discomfort and I'm not sure I should try to teach a lesson this way. How should I plan an encounter they cannot just walk in and out without giving it a proper thought? How do you encourage your players to think without actually telling them they must plan if they want to live. I want them to enjoy the game but not think that it's easy or without risk of losing your char if you don't pay any attention.
I'd try stacking an encounter against them as an experiment. Pick a monster or two that are higher than the encounter builder recommends for their party level and see how they do. Obviously don't over-do it, they're not facing down an army of tarrasques at level 14, but I'm sure they could have an interesting time with a CR 20-21 or something.
If you get into the fight and it starts instantly steamrolling your players then, success, you have a good idea as to the upper limits of your player's ability. Here's a few things you can do to manage the experience however so you avoid an unfair tpk and annoying your players: 1) You can adjust monster stats on the fly, changing HP, AC, to-hit rolls, and damage output fairly subtly without the players catching on. 2) Make this not a fight to the death, but instead have an alternate motivation for the monster not to kill the party. Maybe it's under orders to take them alive? Maybe it's just trying to escape so once a few of the party members go unconscious, it runs away. You might need a more intelligent monster for this option. 3) Try to present alternate win-conditions. Maybe instead of beating it, maybe they can trap it through a dynamic battlefield. Maybe they can trick it into a pit of quicksand or force it to accidentally trigger some cursed artifact or something. You can set up the map as having these usable features without straight up telling the party they're there, just heavily hint that they are so the party learns to consider their surroundings during fights more.
As a footnote, depending on how your players might react to facing a super hard encounter (you know them better than I do), you might want to give them a disclaimer beforehand. Something like "hey, I'm trying something different with this encounter to make things more challenging. Just as a head's up, failure is on the table here, but I have also included ways for you to succeed if you strategize and examine your surroundings."
At that level though, you'll start to find that players can deal with quite a bit when they put their minds to it. You might even find them walking through the first one of these experiments you throw their way. In that case, keep trying to find their ceiling. It'll be better for the game in the long run.
Rather than stacking the monsters CR against them (meaning, in a fair fight, they would expect to lose), instead have some fair fights where the enemy have made plans - so they can start noticing that their enemies are being clever, and their run-in-hit-things (or whatever) standard attack method doesn't work. Ranged attackers up high beyond their reach, melee tanks to hold them in place, traps used in combat (EG the eewoks in star trek when they fight the imperial guard sentinels*), that sort of thing. Let them see the odds stacked against them by enemies who they were expecting to wipe the floor with, and they might get the gist that this is a good idea for themselves!
*said to fuel nerd-rage, I know it was really starship troopers!
Just say that something like "I think we've fallen into the trap of the DM adjusting the difficulty to get you through encounters, and you're trusting me to do that rather than being inventive to tackle the monsters. That's getting a little repetitive and too like Pokémon for my taste, so let's change it up. The monsters as going to gun for you and it's upto you to figure out a way to bring them down. I'll make sure that there are a few environmental features around for you to take advantage of, if you look for them and think about it. I'll also give increased XP if you do inventive stuff. Let's see if this is more enjoyable!"
Follow through - have ways of letting them stack the deck against the enemies. Ways of setting up ambushes, creating traps, giving them cover and so forth. Between the stick of ruthless monsters and the carrot of various battlefield advantages, they should hopefully start thinking more about how to defeat the enemies rather than just blundering through.
If it becomes too easy, and it might, add a few enemies in (if you have to do it on the fly, do it via reinforcements). If it's too hard, then make retreat an option. If it's a curbstomp, either let it happen, or have a surprise NPC ex machine rescue them - with the plain warning that it's a one-off. Alternatively, have them taken prisoner.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Personally, I would set up an encounter that, based on how they have been handling themselves, you expect them to lose. I would look for an encounter that, IF they employed decent tactics, they should be able to win, so if they get their minds right mid-fight, they CAN turn it around. If they don't, and this is critical, LET IT HAPPEN. Let the group wipe, especially if it's due to slacking and not even attempting to employ some sense of tactic or creative/efficient use of action economy. I would try to work this in that it occurs immediately after a long rest, possibly disturbing them right at the end. Also, have it at the end of that session, so at the end of it, you can say "Well, that's it for tonight, we'll pick up again XXXXX"
This should hopefully accomplish a couple things. First, let them see you aren't going to hand wave every half-assed choice they make, there will be penalties for not putting in any real effort. Let them know that for the finale, there will be ZERO nerfing of enemies, because the group CAN defeat what you bring, but not of they are lazy and not putting any thought or consideration into their tactics. Let them know the BBEG will wipe the floor with them and the entire campaign will end in failure if the "heroes" are little more than children who are being walked through everything. Finally, once the reason for the encounter (and TPK hopefully) is explained and they see and maybe understand, the party wakes up. The entire slaughter was a dream!!! Better still, if you could tell that proper tactics and use of abilities and skills would likely have won the day, IT BEGINS AGAIN! A second shot at the fight they died in, to see if they have learned from their mistakes. In the second one, the occasional dice cheat (monster rolls a 24 to hit, you call out "Does 16 hit?") to help them through, a LITTLE would be fine.
An uninspired party isn't much fun to DM, in my opinion, so getting them involved and feeling a sense of urgency is a good thing. Getting them to start operating as a team will, short term, maybe trivialize some encounters you've planned, if you've been planning stuff they can handle, knowing they are dragging their heels.
Final note, ANYTHING under DEADLY in the encounter builder, will 99% be a cake walk for a group on their game and with full resources. rust me, I added 3 monsters after it shifted TO Deadly, and the group, all solid players with good tactics, kicked the stuffing out of the group. They are pretty badass and they know it lol.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
CR is broke past level 12, it breaks at level 10 if you went high on magic items. Did you give your fighter a Flaming Great Sword, did you give your Bard an Instrument of the Bards, the rogue a cloak of displacement and did you also give your Wizard the Hand of Vecna? If so, then you are going to have a problem balancing even as deadly, its just an example of what DM's give without thinking of the consequences. At least with Vecna the Wizard is as good as dead, but the rest give very strong advantages.
Review the parties strengths and weaknesses and build at least 1 encounter that will attack their strength (a party high on mental control, faces mobs invulnerable to mental control) or for Weakness example if they all used INT as a dump stat hello Mind Sliver spell and Mind Slayers.
I feel like my players don't much care about preparing or inventing proper plans and I'd like to encourage more creative and strategic thinking before encounters they know are coming. During the adventure their battles have gone pretty well without major drawbacks because I've been lenient and gone easy on them if they are about to experience character death or even TPK. That doesn't mean they don't get hit or that they couldn't fall unconscious. I don't want them to actually die and make new characters at this point because it would affect storytelling and they are already lvl 14. I intend them to survive until they meet the BBEG, that's about level or two away.
That they don't care shows that they may have noticed that their choices don't have consequences. You openly admit that you will apply plot armor to save your story. DMs are charged with running a fun game, not writing a good story. While your intent might be good in your mind, it is *in principle* similar to railroading the PCs into your story. You don't want them to be absent when your big reveal happens.
I've been using Encounter builder and while I know the tool isn't perfect the encounters I've planned are far from deadly. I don't know if my players are using their character abilities properly or if it's just a combination of bad luck and not thinking ahead. So now I'm in a situation that I have lvl 14 party who trusts that their DM won't harm them permanently, they won't really die, and perhaps they think they will somehow survive whatever I throw at them no matter how they play. Last time we played my players knew what they were against, they knew they probably should prepare and plan before they face the enemy that was meant to be tough, instead they kind of shrugged and lets goed themselves to the encounter without a proper plan.
YOLO's a thing. I might suggest that if they do haphazardly jump off the deep end, that you show (don't tell) them how deep it really is. If there is an NPC that they know and has maybe shown to have some combat ability, show this NPC being handily dispatched before the party joins the fray. Think of Vader and Obi Wan's lightsaber battle in front of Luke as he stands there unable to assist. This showed Luke that Vader was way too strong for him to defeat. Show them that foresight could prevent a repeat performance.
So, what should I do? I've never run campaign where players are on high(er) levels so I might have issues planning balanced fight that isn't easy or too hard. Should I make encounters challenging with real possibility of death? I know this will probably cause some discomfort and I'm not sure I should try to teach a lesson this way. How should I plan an encounter they cannot just walk in and out without giving it a proper thought? How do you encourage your players to think without actually telling them they must plan if they want to live. I want them to enjoy the game but not think that it's easy or without risk of losing your char if you don't pay any attention.
So, your BBEG is supposed to be this super dangerous thing that you have hyped up for, thus far, 14 LVLs worth of gameplay. (I'm guessing about two years worth of real time?) And you're suggesting that the party show up to their house, conduct a dynamic entry, confront the BBEG and have them surrender or fall dead in a matter of 3-ish rounds? This breaks verisimilitude for me.
Death is a potential consequence of the profession of arms, at all times. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Thank all of you for answering. There has been some good points worth noticing and I think I might be able to turn this disaster into some kind of enjoyable but still challenging game for me and my players. The deam fight, even if it feels a bit cheap, is probably the only idea that will both kill the players and keep them alive so that they can learn something from it.
So, your BBEG is supposed to be this super dangerous thing that you have hyped up for, thus far, 14 LVLs worth of gameplay. (I'm guessing about two years worth of real time?) And you're suggesting that the party show up to their house, conduct a dynamic entry, confront the BBEG and have them surrender or fall dead in a matter of 3-ish rounds? This breaks verisimilitude for me
Death is a potential consequence of the profession of arms, at all times. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
For clarification, my BBEG will be that super dangerous thing they have been dreading to meet almost two years in real time. I've been clear with my players that the closer they get the BBEG the harder the encounters will be and if the final encounter against the Big Bad Boy is lost they will die/something as bad will happen to them, and they get the bad ending. My players know, and I hope they understand, that it's all or nothing kind of deal when they finally confront The Enemy. That is also the reason I've wanted to keep them alive because ending campaign early sucks and creating new chars mid game has it's own challenges, especially when my players are really emotionally invested in their current characters. Also one of my player has already changed her char and I'd rather not have that happen constantly if it can be avoided. But I do agree with you, death is and should be a potential consequence.
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I don't know if I can explain this "problem" I'm having. This might also be in my head or I've created this myself so I'd like to hear some opinions.
I feel like my players don't much care about preparing or inventing proper plans and I'd like to encourage more creative and strategic thinking before encounters they know are coming. During the adventure their battles have gone pretty well without major drawbacks because I've been lenient and gone easy on them if they are about to experience character death or even TPK. That doesn't mean they don't get hit or that they couldn't fall unconscious. I don't want them to actually die and make new characters at this point because it would affect storytelling and they are already lvl 14. I intend them to survive until they meet the BBEG, that's about level or two away.
I've been using Encounter builder and while I know the tool isn't perfect the encounters I've planned are far from deadly. I don't know if my players are using their character abilities properly or if it's just a combination of bad luck and not thinking ahead. So now I'm in a situation that I have lvl 14 party who trusts that their DM won't harm them permanently, they won't really die, and perhaps they think they will somehow survive whatever I throw at them no matter how they play. Last time we played my players knew what they were against, they knew they probably should prepare and plan before they face the enemy that was meant to be tough, instead they kind of shrugged and lets goed themselves to the encounter without a proper plan.
So, what should I do? I've never run campaign where players are on high(er) levels so I might have issues planning balanced fight that isn't easy or too hard. Should I make encounters challenging with real possibility of death? I know this will probably cause some discomfort and I'm not sure I should try to teach a lesson this way. How should I plan an encounter they cannot just walk in and out without giving it a proper thought? How do you encourage your players to think without actually telling them they must plan if they want to live. I want them to enjoy the game but not think that it's easy or without risk of losing your char if you don't pay any attention.
I'd try stacking an encounter against them as an experiment. Pick a monster or two that are higher than the encounter builder recommends for their party level and see how they do. Obviously don't over-do it, they're not facing down an army of tarrasques at level 14, but I'm sure they could have an interesting time with a CR 20-21 or something.
If you get into the fight and it starts instantly steamrolling your players then, success, you have a good idea as to the upper limits of your player's ability. Here's a few things you can do to manage the experience however so you avoid an unfair tpk and annoying your players: 1) You can adjust monster stats on the fly, changing HP, AC, to-hit rolls, and damage output fairly subtly without the players catching on. 2) Make this not a fight to the death, but instead have an alternate motivation for the monster not to kill the party. Maybe it's under orders to take them alive? Maybe it's just trying to escape so once a few of the party members go unconscious, it runs away. You might need a more intelligent monster for this option. 3) Try to present alternate win-conditions. Maybe instead of beating it, maybe they can trap it through a dynamic battlefield. Maybe they can trick it into a pit of quicksand or force it to accidentally trigger some cursed artifact or something. You can set up the map as having these usable features without straight up telling the party they're there, just heavily hint that they are so the party learns to consider their surroundings during fights more.
As a footnote, depending on how your players might react to facing a super hard encounter (you know them better than I do), you might want to give them a disclaimer beforehand. Something like "hey, I'm trying something different with this encounter to make things more challenging. Just as a head's up, failure is on the table here, but I have also included ways for you to succeed if you strategize and examine your surroundings."
At that level though, you'll start to find that players can deal with quite a bit when they put their minds to it. You might even find them walking through the first one of these experiments you throw their way. In that case, keep trying to find their ceiling. It'll be better for the game in the long run.
Rather than stacking the monsters CR against them (meaning, in a fair fight, they would expect to lose), instead have some fair fights where the enemy have made plans - so they can start noticing that their enemies are being clever, and their run-in-hit-things (or whatever) standard attack method doesn't work. Ranged attackers up high beyond their reach, melee tanks to hold them in place, traps used in combat (EG the eewoks in star trek when they fight the imperial guard sentinels*), that sort of thing. Let them see the odds stacked against them by enemies who they were expecting to wipe the floor with, and they might get the gist that this is a good idea for themselves!
*said to fuel nerd-rage, I know it was really starship troopers!
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I'd say be honest with them.
Just say that something like "I think we've fallen into the trap of the DM adjusting the difficulty to get you through encounters, and you're trusting me to do that rather than being inventive to tackle the monsters. That's getting a little repetitive and too like Pokémon for my taste, so let's change it up. The monsters as going to gun for you and it's upto you to figure out a way to bring them down. I'll make sure that there are a few environmental features around for you to take advantage of, if you look for them and think about it. I'll also give increased XP if you do inventive stuff. Let's see if this is more enjoyable!"
Follow through - have ways of letting them stack the deck against the enemies. Ways of setting up ambushes, creating traps, giving them cover and so forth. Between the stick of ruthless monsters and the carrot of various battlefield advantages, they should hopefully start thinking more about how to defeat the enemies rather than just blundering through.
If it becomes too easy, and it might, add a few enemies in (if you have to do it on the fly, do it via reinforcements). If it's too hard, then make retreat an option. If it's a curbstomp, either let it happen, or have a surprise NPC ex machine rescue them - with the plain warning that it's a one-off. Alternatively, have them taken prisoner.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Personally, I would set up an encounter that, based on how they have been handling themselves, you expect them to lose. I would look for an encounter that, IF they employed decent tactics, they should be able to win, so if they get their minds right mid-fight, they CAN turn it around. If they don't, and this is critical, LET IT HAPPEN. Let the group wipe, especially if it's due to slacking and not even attempting to employ some sense of tactic or creative/efficient use of action economy. I would try to work this in that it occurs immediately after a long rest, possibly disturbing them right at the end. Also, have it at the end of that session, so at the end of it, you can say "Well, that's it for tonight, we'll pick up again XXXXX"
This should hopefully accomplish a couple things. First, let them see you aren't going to hand wave every half-assed choice they make, there will be penalties for not putting in any real effort. Let them know that for the finale, there will be ZERO nerfing of enemies, because the group CAN defeat what you bring, but not of they are lazy and not putting any thought or consideration into their tactics. Let them know the BBEG will wipe the floor with them and the entire campaign will end in failure if the "heroes" are little more than children who are being walked through everything. Finally, once the reason for the encounter (and TPK hopefully) is explained and they see and maybe understand, the party wakes up. The entire slaughter was a dream!!! Better still, if you could tell that proper tactics and use of abilities and skills would likely have won the day, IT BEGINS AGAIN! A second shot at the fight they died in, to see if they have learned from their mistakes. In the second one, the occasional dice cheat (monster rolls a 24 to hit, you call out "Does 16 hit?") to help them through, a LITTLE would be fine.
An uninspired party isn't much fun to DM, in my opinion, so getting them involved and feeling a sense of urgency is a good thing. Getting them to start operating as a team will, short term, maybe trivialize some encounters you've planned, if you've been planning stuff they can handle, knowing they are dragging their heels.
Final note, ANYTHING under DEADLY in the encounter builder, will 99% be a cake walk for a group on their game and with full resources. rust me, I added 3 monsters after it shifted TO Deadly, and the group, all solid players with good tactics, kicked the stuffing out of the group. They are pretty badass and they know it lol.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
CR is broke past level 12, it breaks at level 10 if you went high on magic items. Did you give your fighter a Flaming Great Sword, did you give your Bard an Instrument of the Bards, the rogue a cloak of displacement and did you also give your Wizard the Hand of Vecna? If so, then you are going to have a problem balancing even as deadly, its just an example of what DM's give without thinking of the consequences. At least with Vecna the Wizard is as good as dead, but the rest give very strong advantages.
Review the parties strengths and weaknesses and build at least 1 encounter that will attack their strength (a party high on mental control, faces mobs invulnerable to mental control) or for Weakness example if they all used INT as a dump stat hello Mind Sliver spell and Mind Slayers.
That they don't care shows that they may have noticed that their choices don't have consequences. You openly admit that you will apply plot armor to save your story. DMs are charged with running a fun game, not writing a good story. While your intent might be good in your mind, it is *in principle* similar to railroading the PCs into your story. You don't want them to be absent when your big reveal happens.
YOLO's a thing. I might suggest that if they do haphazardly jump off the deep end, that you show (don't tell) them how deep it really is. If there is an NPC that they know and has maybe shown to have some combat ability, show this NPC being handily dispatched before the party joins the fray. Think of Vader and Obi Wan's lightsaber battle in front of Luke as he stands there unable to assist. This showed Luke that Vader was way too strong for him to defeat. Show them that foresight could prevent a repeat performance.
So, your BBEG is supposed to be this super dangerous thing that you have hyped up for, thus far, 14 LVLs worth of gameplay. (I'm guessing about two years worth of real time?) And you're suggesting that the party show up to their house, conduct a dynamic entry, confront the BBEG and have them surrender or fall dead in a matter of 3-ish rounds? This breaks verisimilitude for me.
Death is a potential consequence of the profession of arms, at all times. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Thank all of you for answering. There has been some good points worth noticing and I think I might be able to turn this disaster into some kind of enjoyable but still challenging game for me and my players. The deam fight, even if it feels a bit cheap, is probably the only idea that will both kill the players and keep them alive so that they can learn something from it.
For clarification, my BBEG will be that super dangerous thing they have been dreading to meet almost two years in real time. I've been clear with my players that the closer they get the BBEG the harder the encounters will be and if the final encounter against the Big Bad Boy is lost they will die/something as bad will happen to them, and they get the bad ending. My players know, and I hope they understand, that it's all or nothing kind of deal when they finally confront The Enemy. That is also the reason I've wanted to keep them alive because ending campaign early sucks and creating new chars mid game has it's own challenges, especially when my players are really emotionally invested in their current characters. Also one of my player has already changed her char and I'd rather not have that happen constantly if it can be avoided. But I do agree with you, death is and should be a potential consequence.