My wizard just got polymorph and has been using it to throw pebbles at enemies and turning them into pianos... How much damage should this do
Per creating spells in the DMG, spell damage is 7d6 for a level 4 spell that hits multiple targets (pianos are big, that sounds like an area effect to me). This is generally the correct answer to all 'creative' spell use (also, polymorph can't actually turn pebbles into pianos, as it targets creatures and turns them into beasts, though true polymorph could do it).
Lol. That wizard is cool. You could try using the fall damage guidelines in the dungeon master's guide. Ps. Are there pianos in DND?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
This spell transforms a creature with at least 1 hit point that you can see within range into a new form. An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the Effect. A Shapechanger automatically succeeds on this saving throw.
The transformation lasts for the Duration, or until the target drops to 0 Hit Points or dies. The new form can be any beast whose Challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a Challenge rating). The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its Alignment and Personality.
The target assumes the Hit Points of its new form. When it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of Hit Points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 Hit Points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 Hit Points, it isn't knocked Unconscious.
The creature is limited in the Actions it can perform by the Nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast Spells, or take any other action that requires hands or Speech.
The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its Equipment.
So yeah, it doesn't do that. You could throw rats at them and polymorph them into lions, though. edit - Challenge rating 1/8 lions, they'd be so cute!
That is sad you can't throw pianos at people. I guess you could just fudge the rules though :)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Although you can't transform a pebble into a piano using polymorph, if you are allowing this or using another ability that can cause it to happen, a heavy object falling onto another object typically inflicts 1d6 damage per 10 feet that it moved.
My wizard just got polymorph and has been using it to throw pebbles at enemies and turning them into pianos... How much damage should this do
If your wizard has been doing this I guess it either may not have bothered your DM enough to check the rules or they're fine with you doing this.
It's up to you whether you want to talk all this through but, given what it sounds like you've already been doing, it might be possible to homebrew a Polymorph Pebble to Piano spell or something on those lines. As long as it balanced with other spells, I'd allow it.
I have a wizard in my party and if I said she couldn't cast scorching Ray she'd be pretty ticked off. I say if the wizard enjoys it, let it cast the pebble piano spell. It won't break your game (probaly anyway)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
My wizard just got polymorph and has been using it to throw pebbles at enemies and turning them into pianos... How much damage should this do
Well, according to the rules it should do zero damage since that's not how the spell works. But if you're the DM and you allow it you can just decide whatever damage you want.
General rule, never let a non-intended use of a spell be better than an intended spell of the same level. I generally figure out what they want to do and look for a similar spell of one level lower.
Usually when someone thinks they found a spell that does better damage, they misunderstand normal physics.
For example, in the real world, there is NO SUCH THING AS CONSERVATION OF SPEED. There is a thing called conservation of ENERGY.
That is, if you had a spell that made the pebble larger in mid air, it slows down by exactly the same ration as the size increase. It does not continue on at the same speed the smaller pebble was traveling at. So it hits and does the same damage as the original pebble would.
Now, you do not have to use the real world physics in your game. Magic does exist after all. But there is nothing in the books that says conservation of energy does not exist.
In other words, ruling a pebble retains it's speed when it grows larger is the House Rule. Normal RAW is the pebble does the same damage regardless of size increase, unless the spell specifically states otherwise.
For example, in the real world, there is NO SUCH THING AS CONSERVATION OF SPEED. There is a thing called conservation of ENERGY.
But since the spell is converting a small amount of mass into a much larger amount of mass, why wouldn't the newly generated mass contain the same kinetic energy per unit mass as the mass to which it is being added? (That's magic for you.)
For example, in the real world, there is NO SUCH THING AS CONSERVATION OF SPEED. There is a thing called conservation of ENERGY.
But since the spell is converting a small amount of mass into a much larger amount of mass, why wouldn't the newly generated mass contain the same kinetic energy per unit mass as the mass to which it is being added? (That's magic for you.)
I don’t know why it should have the same “energy per unit mass,” but it should have the same momentum.
Let’s say the pebble is 0.1Kg, and it’s being hurled at 10m/s. That makes its momentum 1Kgm/s and its kinetic energy 10N.
If the piano is 500Kg (that’s a heavy piano, but within the realm of possibility), the velocity of the new object will have to be traveling at .002m/s to conserve a momentum of 1Kgm/s. By a coincidence of my having chosen these numbers for a reason, that makes the kinetic energy of the new object .002N, reduced from the original by a factor of 5000.
Because it adds kinetic energy, it should list it in the spell. Having magic add momentum is totally reasonable but should not be the default assumption. That is, it would be a house rule.
Spells should do everything necessary for the intended use, but not for 'creative uses' of the spell.
But since the spell is converting a small amount of mass into a much larger amount of mass, why wouldn't the newly generated mass contain the same kinetic energy per unit mass as the mass to which it is being added? (That's magic for you.)
Anything that creates mass violates multiple conservation laws, so talking about physics is pointless. Either come up with an actual set of physical laws that permit you to do these things (which may or may not make doing it productive) or just assume it works in a game balanced way and stop trying to use D&D as a physics emulator.
For example, in the real world, there is NO SUCH THING AS CONSERVATION OF SPEED. There is a thing called conservation of ENERGY.
But since the spell is converting a small amount of mass into a much larger amount of mass, why wouldn't the newly generated mass contain the same kinetic energy per unit mass as the mass to which it is being added? (That's magic for you.)
I don’t know why it should have the same “energy per unit mass,” but it should have the same momentum.
Let’s say the pebble is 0.1Kg, and it’s being hurled at 10m/s. That makes its momentum 1Kgm/s and its kinetic energy 10N.
If the piano is 500Kg (that’s a heavy piano, but within the realm of possibility), the velocity of the new object will have to be traveling at .002m/s to conserve a momentum of 1Kgm/s. By a coincidence of my having chosen these numbers for a reason, that makes the kinetic energy of the new object .002N, reduced from the original by a factor of 5000.
By this reasoning, I can cast Reduce on any creature that is, say, dashing at a speed such as 60 ft per round. A halving of all the creature's dimensions would reduce its mass by a factor of eight and increase it's speed by the same factor. Sit back and wait for the crash.
Similarly, if I'm falling over 500 ft and don't have feather fall, I can instead ready Enlarge so as to finish casting before hitting the ground. The doubling of all dimensions would increase mass by a factor of eight and reduce speed (and, at least in d&d, damage) by the same factor.
All in all, I think Farling's interpretation might be less problematic. The spells don't mention changes of speed so DMs are at liberty to say they don't happen.
edit: if a horse riding druid wildshapes into a small, hard-shelled creature, would they suddenly adopt phenomenal speed and potentially kill the horse?
But since the spell is converting a small amount of mass into a much larger amount of mass, why wouldn't the newly generated mass contain the same kinetic energy per unit mass as the mass to which it is being added? (That's magic for you.)
Anything that creates mass violates multiple conservation laws, so talking about physics is pointless. Either come up with an actual set of physical laws that permit you to do these things (which may or may not make doing it productive) or just assume it works in a game balanced way and stop trying to use D&D as a physics emulator.
I know it is useless. Someone else started trying to apply physics to what happens when magic creates matter :-)
My homebrew spell "conjure piano" does 3d10 bludgeoning damage at 3rd level. Probably not super balanced because I'm not a homebrew expert but could be a good baseline.
If you decide to apply physics, then you have to also consider gravitational potential energy. If this is conserved, then throw the pebble high - when it polymorphs back, for energy to be conserved, 2 things can happen - the piano will hurtle towards the ground extremely quickly, accelerated by magic, in order to have the same gravitational potential energy, and smash whatever is below it into very small, wet, pieces. Or, gravity will suddenly reduce for the piano, and it will drift slowly downwards, so as to only accumulate the same momentum as the pebble upon landing.
Alternatively, the energy being generated to give the piano this sort of energy will cause heat enough for nuclear reactions and any polymorph where mass isn't conserved is potentially enough to go nuclear.
My personal preference is that the object ,being magically changed, will be moving as fast as it was before. It's the most mechanically simple option, and prevents wildshape on a horse from killing the horse, or polymorphing someone else on a moving platform from speeding up / slowing them down.
For damage, I agree that using one spell level lower as a baseline, and also I would make it nonmagical damage, as it's just a piano hitting them, regardless of how it got there.
For getting past the issue with whether Polymorph works, instead use Animate Objects to turn some pianos into creatures, and then polymorph them into snails. Command the snails to do whatever - perhaps including climbing onto the ceiling and waiting above the BBEG's desk for the spell to wear off!
My homebrew spell "conjure piano" does 3d10 bludgeoning damage at 3rd level. Probably not super balanced because I'm not a homebrew expert but could be a good baseline.
My wizard just got polymorph and has been using it to throw pebbles at enemies and turning them into pianos... How much damage should this do
Per creating spells in the DMG, spell damage is 7d6 for a level 4 spell that hits multiple targets (pianos are big, that sounds like an area effect to me). This is generally the correct answer to all 'creative' spell use (also, polymorph can't actually turn pebbles into pianos, as it targets creatures and turns them into beasts, though true polymorph could do it).
Lol. That wizard is cool. You could try using the fall damage guidelines in the dungeon master's guide. Ps. Are there pianos in DND?
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Polymorph
The transformation lasts for the Duration, or until the target drops to 0 Hit Points or dies. The new form can be any beast whose Challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a Challenge rating). The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its Alignment and Personality.
The target assumes the Hit Points of its new form. When it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of Hit Points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 Hit Points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 Hit Points, it isn't knocked Unconscious.
The creature is limited in the Actions it can perform by the Nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast Spells, or take any other action that requires hands or Speech.
The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its Equipment.
So yeah, it doesn't do that. You could throw rats at them and polymorph them into lions, though. edit - Challenge rating 1/8 lions, they'd be so cute!
That is sad you can't throw pianos at people. I guess you could just fudge the rules though :)
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Although you can't transform a pebble into a piano using polymorph, if you are allowing this or using another ability that can cause it to happen, a heavy object falling onto another object typically inflicts 1d6 damage per 10 feet that it moved.
If your wizard has been doing this I guess it either may not have bothered your DM enough to check the rules or they're fine with you doing this.
It's up to you whether you want to talk all this through but, given what it sounds like you've already been doing, it might be possible to homebrew a Polymorph Pebble to Piano spell or something on those lines. As long as it balanced with other spells, I'd allow it.
I have a wizard in my party and if I said she couldn't cast scorching Ray she'd be pretty ticked off. I say if the wizard enjoys it, let it cast the pebble piano spell. It won't break your game (probaly anyway)
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
i am the dm
Well, according to the rules it should do zero damage since that's not how the spell works. But if you're the DM and you allow it you can just decide whatever damage you want.
General rule, never let a non-intended use of a spell be better than an intended spell of the same level. I generally figure out what they want to do and look for a similar spell of one level lower.
Usually when someone thinks they found a spell that does better damage, they misunderstand normal physics.
For example, in the real world, there is NO SUCH THING AS CONSERVATION OF SPEED. There is a thing called conservation of ENERGY.
That is, if you had a spell that made the pebble larger in mid air, it slows down by exactly the same ration as the size increase. It does not continue on at the same speed the smaller pebble was traveling at. So it hits and does the same damage as the original pebble would.
Now, you do not have to use the real world physics in your game. Magic does exist after all. But there is nothing in the books that says conservation of energy does not exist.
In other words, ruling a pebble retains it's speed when it grows larger is the House Rule. Normal RAW is the pebble does the same damage regardless of size increase, unless the spell specifically states otherwise.
But since the spell is converting a small amount of mass into a much larger amount of mass, why wouldn't the newly generated mass contain the same kinetic energy per unit mass as the mass to which it is being added? (That's magic for you.)
I don’t know why it should have the same “energy per unit mass,” but it should have the same momentum.
Let’s say the pebble is 0.1Kg, and it’s being hurled at 10m/s. That makes its momentum 1Kgm/s and its kinetic energy 10N.
If the piano is 500Kg (that’s a heavy piano, but within the realm of possibility), the velocity of the new object will have to be traveling at .002m/s to conserve a momentum of 1Kgm/s. By a coincidence of my having chosen these numbers for a reason, that makes the kinetic energy of the new object .002N, reduced from the original by a factor of 5000.
Because it adds kinetic energy, it should list it in the spell. Having magic add momentum is totally reasonable but should not be the default assumption. That is, it would be a house rule.
Spells should do everything necessary for the intended use, but not for 'creative uses' of the spell.
Anything that creates mass violates multiple conservation laws, so talking about physics is pointless. Either come up with an actual set of physical laws that permit you to do these things (which may or may not make doing it productive) or just assume it works in a game balanced way and stop trying to use D&D as a physics emulator.
By this reasoning, I can cast Reduce on any creature that is, say, dashing at a speed such as 60 ft per round. A halving of all the creature's dimensions would reduce its mass by a factor of eight and increase it's speed by the same factor. Sit back and wait for the crash.
Similarly, if I'm falling over 500 ft and don't have feather fall, I can instead ready Enlarge so as to finish casting before hitting the ground. The doubling of all dimensions would increase mass by a factor of eight and reduce speed (and, at least in d&d, damage) by the same factor.
All in all, I think Farling's interpretation might be less problematic. The spells don't mention changes of speed so DMs are at liberty to say they don't happen.
edit: if a horse riding druid wildshapes into a small, hard-shelled creature, would they suddenly adopt phenomenal speed and potentially kill the horse?
I know it is useless. Someone else started trying to apply physics to what happens when magic creates matter :-)
My homebrew spell "conjure piano" does 3d10 bludgeoning damage at 3rd level. Probably not super balanced because I'm not a homebrew expert but could be a good baseline.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/347880-conjure-piano
My Homebrew Backgrounds | Feats | Magic Items | Monsters | Races | Subclasses
You should never try to apply real world physics to magic. Just don't even go there. (link to a funny comic which applies physics t othe princess and the frog).
If you decide to apply physics, then you have to also consider gravitational potential energy. If this is conserved, then throw the pebble high - when it polymorphs back, for energy to be conserved, 2 things can happen - the piano will hurtle towards the ground extremely quickly, accelerated by magic, in order to have the same gravitational potential energy, and smash whatever is below it into very small, wet, pieces. Or, gravity will suddenly reduce for the piano, and it will drift slowly downwards, so as to only accumulate the same momentum as the pebble upon landing.
Alternatively, the energy being generated to give the piano this sort of energy will cause heat enough for nuclear reactions and any polymorph where mass isn't conserved is potentially enough to go nuclear.
My personal preference is that the object ,being magically changed, will be moving as fast as it was before. It's the most mechanically simple option, and prevents wildshape on a horse from killing the horse, or polymorphing someone else on a moving platform from speeding up / slowing them down.
For damage, I agree that using one spell level lower as a baseline, and also I would make it nonmagical damage, as it's just a piano hitting them, regardless of how it got there.
For getting past the issue with whether Polymorph works, instead use Animate Objects to turn some pianos into creatures, and then polymorph them into snails. Command the snails to do whatever - perhaps including climbing onto the ceiling and waiting above the BBEG's desk for the spell to wear off!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
That's genius.
What would you think about adding info on a noise effect on impact?
I'd personally give the spell a duration - unless, of course, you want to go into a piano supply business. ;D