So me and another player in the same campaign were talking recently and trying to find out why combat in our game feels so stale.
We fight a wide variety of enemies, various different compositions of enemy groups (sometimes hordes, sometimes solo bosses, sometimes smaller groups of elites). And they're always challenging, even for our level 14 party.
But, we still get SUPER bored during combat. To the point where our resident power-gamer even said last session (context: was getting late and we were on the verge of another fight) "I don't mind staying late, but I would rather not do more combat"
So it got us talking, WHY?
What we decided was that while the fights were varied in terms of monster composition, they were all just "Here's the enemies, kill 'em" with no other goals or objectives.
I also DM a game and like to throw in what I call "puzzle fights" where its a combat encounter, but with a twist such as having to beat certain monsters in a particular sequence, or having to stand on certain glowing platforms to make a boss vulnerable etc...
I was wondering if you guys had some ideas for more fun combat encounters where just "kill the enemies" isn't the only goal
Mmm... I've not had this problem personally as a DM though have experienced it in RP games in general, I haven't really had very long combat sessions in the 5e campaigns to my thinking...
Something that catches my eye in what you've said "I also DM a game and like to throw in what I call "puzzle fights" where its a combat encounter, but with a twist such as having to beat certain monsters in a particular sequence, or having to stand on certain glowing platforms to make a boss vulnerable etc..."
This isn't actually changing the objective of "kill the enemies" rather the route by which this is achieved, I'm not saying it a bad idea seems rather cool to me actually just pointing something out.
Sothis has me thinking what are actual encounter Objective changes to "kill the enemies"... Infiltration, exfiltration (ie hostage rescue), casualty mitigation (fighting retreat), Delaying action (holding a line choke point)
though I'm not sure that encounter objective change is even going to make encounters exciting again... Lv 14 party sounds quite high to me my guess is your players have been playing their characters for quite some time so that say the novelty of a "Fireball" scattering the enemies lines leaving shard limbs across the battlefield has somewhat waned.
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
i don't know how much roleplay you do in combat. if you don't then change that. let your players decide how to kill the monster. and describe it's actions in detail (check to make sure your party is ok with gore first though) this is how i spice it up. and reward your players for doing the roleplay. for instance if your paladin player (or any person with a shield) uses the shield to block a hit then use a reaction to do a shield bash maybe knock that thing prone or stun it for a round. no damage but an effect can really spice up combat.
as for combat in general. do something non lethal. for instance capturing a live owl bear. this way they have to fight with a challenge. non lethal damage is everything but bows and magic(magic that causes damage). this limits it and makes the wizard use other spells than fireball because he might kill it. instead he may buff the barbarian in some way. it would also get that ranger who likes to snipe get up close and personal. or maybe bind the thing up with a spell
I was wondering if you guys had some ideas for more fun combat encounters where just "kill the enemies" isn't the only goal
Whenever I'm designing an encounter in my games I list each of the three pillars and write notes on how the encounter might be solved via that pillar. Not every encounter can support one of the pillars, but I've found that stopping to think about each of them for a moment makes for more dynamic encounters. At the very least I know why the monsters in the encounter will fight, and what they will fight for.
The Grey Hills Basilisk Summary: This basilisk has been troubling prospectors in the Grey Hills for years. Any time a prospector or miner goes into the hills in search of wealth and does not return the basilisk is blamed. As characters approach it's lair they will find several remnants of statues (eaten by the basilisk). These discoveries will increase in frequency the closer a character gets to the lair.
Combat Pillar Fighting the basilisk head on will be dangerous. It chose it's current lair instinctively and there is very little terrain to hide behind in an attempt to avoid it's gaze. The basilisk will attempt to turn any intruders it sees into stone, but will not pursue those who run away. It is content to remain close to it's lair and to feed upon the stoned remains of any who meet it's gaze.
Exploration Pillar Nearby one of the statue remnants is the gear of a prospector who realized it was too late to run. They cast off their pack and outerwear to preserve it. Searching the contents of the pack will reveal useful gear for camping and prospecting, as well as a scroll in a finely made tube. The scroll contains an overland map to what is labeled as a "lost dwarven hall." Characters who make a DC 12 Survival check can orient themselves with this map and then follow it toward the hall.
Social Pillar The scroll has the markings of the Rockdigger clan. Returning these items to the clan will earn their goodwill and an audience with the clan thane. The Rockdiggers will offer their goodwill to the adventurers for respecting the property of a clan member and will offer rewards for taking on quests that address their more local troubles.
I have found that just writing a line or two about each pillar in an encounter let's me be a lot more flexible in terms of what I can quickly respond to from my players. It keeps my mind open and flexible to alternatives and surprises. Instead of plotting just one answer to fill them all.
I like to write in custom ways to kill stuff. For example, for Curse of Strahd I made up a sort of Graveyard Elemental. It had about 300 hp, resistant to everything except radiant damage and regenerated 40 hp a round during combat. It hit like a truck, and while it wasn’t fast, it could punch downward, into the earth and cause an eruption at a players location to do dmg. Basically, it was an animated graveyard that was protecting the pass below castle ravenloft.
So, knowledge arcana check, DC 22, something like this would have had to have had an animating focus. That focus is a specific masoleum on the creatures back, oh yeah, it’s gargantuan, basically a walking graveyard shaped roughly like a turtle. The party Ranger makes the daring leap onto its back, pries open the masoleum, snuffs the candles around the coffin inside, making the creature go to sleep where it stood.
in those three rounds of combat the rest of the party kept getting smacked up and they ended up casting revivify on the warlock.
The party found the cipher to the book of Strahd in that masoleum as well, and a few magic items. So while they could have just beat down the critter, the arcana check, the dex checks, str checks, and finally a wisdom check, downed the monster.
I think of some of them like God of War did, finding a weakness and exploiting it will get the party further than just beating it down. Plus it leaves more room for role playing the event and cooperative play between the characters.
If the fights are purely "You are here. Monsters are here. Fight to the death" then those encounters are going to get boring quickly. Fights are also sometimes boring if there's no real feel of threat to the party. In 5e, engaging in a battle where you know you're going to win quite easily from the offset can often take as long as a tense and scary fight because every attack still requires rolling to hit, then rolling damage, and by the time you're high level everything has 3 attacks, and so on and so on.
It's also worth considering, at 14th level, how much access do you guys have to Resurrection type spells? There is very little tension in any game where you can buy back your dead, or have access to loads of diamonds so provided the cleric survives and keeps a bag of toenail clippings everyone is just bouncing back. If you have that kind of magic, ask the DM to remove it (limiting the diamond availability - no more than one existing in the game for every 2 levels you'll go through is decent).
Here are my 'rules' (they are more like internal guidelines that I just know) for fights that I plan to include in games:
Every fight must advance the story in some way, or be a result of direct player choice. There is never a good reason to include a random encounter with a bunch of wolves, orcs, wyverns or whatever if they don't have a specific role in the story. If the players are leading the game, they only encounter creatures tied to locations.
The outcome of the fight therefore changes the situation that the characters find themselves in. There must be stakes for every single combat in the game. If the characters lose the fight and have to run, that has to have consequences. They should care more about saving the day than whether they TPK or not.
Abandon the 6-8 encounters per day model of 5e. Only use Deadly level encounters. Anything else is a waste of time. Past level 6, PCs can handle around 4 Deadly encounters per day.
Double the hit points of any key creature that the PCs are going to fight. Instead of fights that last 2-3 turns, fights are more fun if there are fewer, but they are more taxing or strategic, and the PCs get to make lots of choices. If fights are brief, it's usually a case of blowing the big guns in turn 1, mopping up in turn 2. It's not rewarding for anyone.
Each fight should have some kind of a gimmick. Refer to MMO games like World of Warcraft raid boss fights for inspiration on how this can work, to create "boss mechanics" that make fights more individual. This typically involves: Forcing unusual movement, forcing the PCs to use different tactics to normal, giving the PCs access to unusual abilities/equipment, requiring them to strike at a particular time, protecting something/someone, or getting from A to B.
Sometimes it's fine to just have a good old stand-up fight, but that's usually reserved for meeting the final boss of a dungeon in its lair when you want the moment of RP to be stronger than a gimmick.
Here are some examples of memorable battles from the campaign I'm currently running:
The PCs arrive to stop a ritual (classic!). They have 5 turns to stop it before the orb is destroyed and the bad guys achieve their goal, channelling magic into an ancient statue. They failed to do it (actually my group destroyed the orb, misguidedly, triggering it) and then destroyed the statue. This opened a portal into the Far Realm that tried to suck them in. They then had to avoid being dragged into the Far Realm, making strength checks each turn. The barbarian rolled a 3 twice (with advantage), rolled badly for distance and went in. The others harpooned him with a crossbow bolt and had to drag him back out. One of them turned into a mammoth to stabilise the rope around its leg. Very different, very memborable.
There are two guardian statues. One is immune to all physical damage, and has an array of spells. The other is immune to all magic and deals powerful physical damage. The PCs must figure out how to counter them.
An ice demon stands in the centre of a frozen library, in which there are many book shelves. On turn 1, its Lair action is to take a deep breath. On turn 2, it exhales and deals massive damage to anything that isn't behind cover. Repeat this process, along with the demon knocking down any bookshelf it walks into, destroying the cover in a race against time and forcing unorthodox tactics.
The PCs are at one end of a 400 foot long bridge. A Duergar Mecha Tank sits at the other end, with a pair of 600ft range battle cannons. They start off hidden behind a wall. The bridge is over lava, there are worker drones and a few guards there, and drifting clouds of smoke. The PCs need to try to to get as close to the tank as they can before the duergar know they're there.
An airship flies overhead, bombarding civilians. The civilians are in Huge swarms as panicked mobs, and move randomly. Anything they run over gets trampled. Only 2 PCs can fly, the airship has a crew that can be fought by boarding, but the airship can also be brought down if it takes 500 damage. The longer the PCs take, the more civilians perish.
The PCs must protect a magical floating hand from 3 Gorgons (a magical trial situation). The Gorgons will preferentially attack the fragile hand if there is no PC standing within 5 feet of it.
There are 9 pillars. A bolt of lightning starts at one, and jumps to the next pillar each turn. Each turn, monsters spawn randomly from 3 portals. Most are slow, but dangerous, a few have ranged attacks, it's possible to roll up a big very dangerous one. The PCs must protect the final pillar, where the lightning will destroy it, but they have to hold out. There is no way for the PCs to kill all the monsters each turn. By turn 8, they should be on the verge of being completely overrun, down to no resources and holding out by the thinnest of threads.
Part of the problem is that 5e monsters are kinda boring; higher CR is just a bigger pile of hit points and damage, not something new. Of course, changing that runs the risk of making the game somewhat unplayable at high level.
The other thing you can do is just glass cannon monsters. The fights aren't inherently more interesting, but they're over faster, and there's more of a pucker factor when you're one-shotting PCs.
Part of the problem is that 5e monsters are kinda boring; higher CR is just a bigger pile of hit points and damage, not something new. Of course, changing that runs the risk of making the game somewhat unplayable at high level.
The other thing you can do is just glass cannon monsters. The fights aren't inherently more interesting, but they're over faster, and there's more of a pucker factor when you're one-shotting PCs.
I don't want to say that 5e monsters are designed 'badly,' as I think that what you like in D&D can span a huge range of things, but I would say that for the types of encounters I enjoy running, they really don't meet my criteria.
5e monsters are designed for combats that last 2-3 turns, and on the basis that the monster is only likely to get off 1-2 attacks. They all seem to be glass cannons, with the emphasis on the 'glass' aspect.
Perhaps the most iconic evil monster in D&D is the Adult Red Dragon. With a fearsome CR17, it deals a nasty 63 (18d6) Fire damage with its breath weapon. Ouch! But wait. Our party of level 8 PCs are each sitting on about 70 hit points. They can cut the damage to 31 on a successful save. The Rogue can reduce it to nil. The wizard can absorb elements it to half again. But hey, he still threw out quite a lot of damage overall... Then our Level 8 PCs with +1 weapons commence attacking. +9 or +10 to hit isn't uncommon, making that 19AC look a bit paltry. The Barbarian is already under a fly spell so he's dishing out GWM attacks, landing 25 to 50 damage on a turn. With just 256 hit points, facing off against a 4 character party our poor old red dragon is going to last around 2 turns of combat before it dies thrashing in the dirt. And if they had a few Potions of Fire Resistance, our intrepid heroes pretty much shrugged off our dragon's ace in the hole.
Part of the issue comes down to min-max builds with characters taking feats that bolster the characters, but those are just part of the game. Everyone min-maxes if they know the rules: why wouldn't they?
And all that is fine if you like combat to be a brief flurry, or you like to run lots and lots of small combats per game. Published modules, such as some of the adventures in Candlekeep Mysteries book seem to follow this playstyle. But I like combats that last 5-9 turns, with strategic choices, unusual spells going off, time to RP in combat and see the players really sweat. These monster designs don't work for me, so I homebrew basically everything. My dragons have double the hit points of the standard ones, just to give them a few turns.
If your fighting just to fight it can start to feel pointless because it is, in fact, pointless.
Why are you fighting? And, if you don't have an answer to that question there are no: stakes.
You need to have something to lose, something needs to be determined by the fate of the battle. More than even just your character's lives or the lives of the monsters.
Are you protecting people? Is there diplomatic/political fallout to the fate of this fight? What changes happen as a result of this encounter? Are they trying to get a McGuffin? Are you trying to get the McGuffin, but they're stopping you?
If there is nothing outside of the death/life of the combatants themselves at risk then the fights start to seem stale because, well, we sorta already know the PCs ain't dying, right? So nothing is actually at stake here.
But if the monsters can achieve a victory within the battle, destroy a wall, open a barrier, steal a McGuffin, etc, then the PC CAN lose, even if they ultimately win the fight.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Perhaps the most iconic evil monster in D&D is the Adult Red Dragon. With a fearsome CR17, it deals a nasty 63 (18d6) Fire damage with its breath weapon. Ouch! But wait. Our party of level 8 PCs are each sitting on about 70 hit points. They can cut the damage to 31 on a successful save. The Rogue can reduce it to nil. The wizard can absorb elements it to half again. But hey, he still threw out quite a lot of damage overall... Then our Level 8 PCs with +1 weapons commence attacking. +9 or +10 to hit isn't uncommon, making that 19AC look a bit paltry. The Barbarian is already under a fly spell so he's dishing out GWM attacks, landing 25 to 50 damage on a turn. With just 256 hit points, facing off against a 4 character party our poor old red dragon is going to last around 2 turns of combat before it dies thrashing in the dirt.
I would expect three rounds if it starts the encounter with its multiattack; frightful presence slows things down a lot. It also sounds like you've got somewhat overpowered PCs, typical level 8 hp is about 60, and you're permitting prebuffing, which in general means you should give the monsters equivalent advantages (just use the spellcasting variant and have it come in with Improved Invisibility, for example).
And all that is fine if you like combat to be a brief flurry, or you like to run lots and lots of small combats per game. Published modules, such as some of the adventures in Candlekeep Mysteries book seem to follow this playstyle. But I like combats that last 5-9 turns, with strategic choices, unusual spells going off, time to RP in combat and see the players really sweat. These monster designs don't work for me, so I homebrew basically everything. My dragons have double the hit points of the standard ones, just to give them a few turns.
5-9 round combats are a slog and will contribute to combats seeming stale.
Perhaps the most iconic evil monster in D&D is the Adult Red Dragon. With a fearsome CR17, it deals a nasty 63 (18d6) Fire damage with its breath weapon. Ouch! But wait. Our party of level 8 PCs are each sitting on about 70 hit points. They can cut the damage to 31 on a successful save. The Rogue can reduce it to nil. The wizard can absorb elements it to half again. But hey, he still threw out quite a lot of damage overall... Then our Level 8 PCs with +1 weapons commence attacking. +9 or +10 to hit isn't uncommon, making that 19AC look a bit paltry. The Barbarian is already under a fly spell so he's dishing out GWM attacks, landing 25 to 50 damage on a turn. With just 256 hit points, facing off against a 4 character party our poor old red dragon is going to last around 2 turns of combat before it dies thrashing in the dirt.
I would expect three rounds if it starts the encounter with its multiattack; frightful presence slows things down a lot. It also sounds like you've got somewhat overpowered PCs, typical level 8 hp is about 60, and you're permitting prebuffing, which in general means you should give the monsters equivalent advantages (just use the spellcasting variant and have it come in with Improved Invisibility, for example).
Any L8 party who fights an adult red dragon is asking for a TPK. It'll be over quick but that's not a good thing for the party.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I've been using Matt Colville's advice for bringing 4e monster abilities into 5e. Things like giving regular monsters reactions and bonus actions, bursts when they have half of their hit points left, having them change into other creatures when they hit half or 0 hit points.
That seems to have spiced combat up for my Level 11 players. They have said they feel challenged and comment on aspects that I have added that are fun or had them a little worried.
Combat always has a reason in my games. If they are fighting it's not because they came across a random monster. That helps. They have to fight because if they don't something terrible will happen. I allow players to state they want to capture instead of kill so when something reaches 0 HP it is just uncurious not dead. I have intelligent monsters run away so it isn't just hack, slash, kill for all of the time.
I've been using Matt Colville's advice for bringing 4e monster abilities into 5e.
Huh. I haven't seen that. It's actually pretty easy to convert 4e monsters to 5e -- set their max hit point to the bloodied value, recompute attack bonus and defenses, generally use the 5e definitions of conditions that exist in both editions, done (CR... meh, whatever; I suggest a level N encounter from 4e would be an interesting challenge for level 2+N/2 in 5e, where 'interesting' does not mean 'medium').
I was wondering if you guys had some ideas for more fun combat encounters where just "kill the enemies" isn't the only goal
Whenever I'm designing an encounter in my games I list each of the three pillars and write notes on how the encounter might be solved via that pillar. Not every encounter can support one of the pillars, but I've found that stopping to think about each of them for a moment makes for more dynamic encounters. At the very least I know why the monsters in the encounter will fight, and what they will fight for.
The Grey Hills Basilisk Summary: This basilisk has been troubling prospectors in the Grey Hills for years. Any time a prospector or miner goes into the hills in search of wealth and does not return the basilisk is blamed. As characters approach it's lair they will find several remnants of statues (eaten by the basilisk). These discoveries will increase in frequency the closer a character gets to the lair.
Combat Pillar Fighting the basilisk head on will be dangerous. It chose it's current lair instinctively and there is very little terrain to hide behind in an attempt to avoid it's gaze. The basilisk will attempt to turn any intruders it sees into stone, but will not pursue those who run away. It is content to remain close to it's lair and to feed upon the stoned remains of any who meet it's gaze.
Exploration Pillar Nearby one of the statue remnants is the gear of a prospector who realized it was too late to run. They cast off their pack and outerwear to preserve it. Searching the contents of the pack will reveal useful gear for camping and prospecting, as well as a scroll in a finely made tube. The scroll contains an overland map to what is labeled as a "lost dwarven hall." Characters who make a DC 12 Survival check can orient themselves with this map and then follow it toward the hall.
Social Pillar The scroll has the markings of the Rockdigger clan. Returning these items to the clan will earn their goodwill and an audience with the clan thane. The Rockdiggers will offer their goodwill to the adventurers for respecting the property of a clan member and will offer rewards for taking on quests that address their more local troubles.
I have found that just writing a line or two about each pillar in an encounter let's me be a lot more flexible in terms of what I can quickly respond to from my players. It keeps my mind open and flexible to alternatives and surprises. Instead of plotting just one answer to fill them all.
In order to deal with the basilisk though the characters will eventually have to fight it, you have populated the area and given them other things to do but none of those point to an alternative to “kill the basilisk to keep the miners safe”
I once had a similar encounter, I came up with an option where the party might relocate the monster away from where it was attacking locals if they decided to go that way.
As for the OP, do your fights have a purpose? It is one reason I never use a random encounter table, every encounter that will result in combat has as much importance to the story as every social encounter, even if it is a very small detail the players may never pick up on. Those wolves attacking in the woods are hungry because the bandit gang the party are hunting has been impacting the food chain.
If you feel you are fighting just for the sake of rolling dice then it loses purpose and becomes just another fight.
If your fighting just to fight it can start to feel pointless because it is, in fact, pointless.
Why are you fighting? And, if you don't have an answer to that question there are no: stakes.
You need to have something to lose, something needs to be determined by the fate of the battle. More than even just your character's lives or the lives of the monsters.
Are you protecting people? Is there diplomatic/political fallout to the fate of this fight? What changes happen as a result of this encounter? Are they trying to get a McGuffin? Are you trying to get the McGuffin, but they're stopping you?
If there is nothing outside of the death/life of the combatants themselves at risk then the fights start to seem stale because, well, we sorta already know the PCs ain't dying, right? So nothing is actually at stake here.
But if the monsters can achieve a victory within the battle, destroy a wall, open a barrier, steal a McGuffin, etc, then the PC CAN lose, even if they ultimately win the fight.
They need be a ninja to capture the mcguffin. Rogues and way of the shadow monks only (probaly some others but I only have the 3 core books)
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When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Perhaps the most iconic evil monster in D&D is the Adult Red Dragon. With a fearsome CR17, it deals a nasty 63 (18d6) Fire damage with its breath weapon. Ouch! But wait. Our party of level 8 PCs are each sitting on about 70 hit points. They can cut the damage to 31 on a successful save. The Rogue can reduce it to nil. The wizard can absorb elements it to half again. But hey, he still threw out quite a lot of damage overall... Then our Level 8 PCs with +1 weapons commence attacking. +9 or +10 to hit isn't uncommon, making that 19AC look a bit paltry. The Barbarian is already under a fly spell so he's dishing out GWM attacks, landing 25 to 50 damage on a turn. With just 256 hit points, facing off against a 4 character party our poor old red dragon is going to last around 2 turns of combat before it dies thrashing in the dirt.
I would expect three rounds if it starts the encounter with its multiattack; frightful presence slows things down a lot. It also sounds like you've got somewhat overpowered PCs, typical level 8 hp is about 60, and you're permitting prebuffing, which in general means you should give the monsters equivalent advantages (just use the spellcasting variant and have it come in with Improved Invisibility, for example).
And all that is fine if you like combat to be a brief flurry, or you like to run lots and lots of small combats per game. Published modules, such as some of the adventures in Candlekeep Mysteries book seem to follow this playstyle. But I like combats that last 5-9 turns, with strategic choices, unusual spells going off, time to RP in combat and see the players really sweat. These monster designs don't work for me, so I homebrew basically everything. My dragons have double the hit points of the standard ones, just to give them a few turns.
5-9 round combats are a slog and will contribute to combats seeming stale.
Totally disagree that long combats are stale. If you build the combat to be exciting, plot driven, and feature the type of dynamic non-standard elements that the OP is looking for, you'll be able to make them utterly thrilling for your players. If combat feels a slog it's because the players aren't invested in them, aren't desperate to take another turn, but also are probably either just a routine hack'n'slash or the story hasn't built the players to a point where this feels like a critical moment.
Last session my players spent 2 hours of gameplay just trying not to get sucked into a portal. None of us could believe that the time had flown by so quickly when it did. Combats often last 2-3 hours in my sessions, and the players really enjoy them. But I know that they wouldn't be if I gave them just a big field of minotaurs to wade through.
Check out the 12 hour long boss fight finale of Critical Role season 2. The whole thing is interesting because the mechanics keep changing, there is constantly RP throughout, and because it's a climactic culmination of all the characters fears and motivations. Long =/= not fun.
Re: dragon, yeah maybe 3 turns. That's still hardly a dragon fight at all.
I suggest you stop using the term "combat encounter."
Because there is no such thing as a "combat encounter."
An encounter is a situation with something between the PCs and their objective. Combat is simply one of the tools they can use to resolve the encounter.
As a GM, don't plan combat; plan obstacles. Think about two or three ways the players could have their characters overcome the obstacles.
Then (important) make the players' choice matter!
For example, if the players choose combat then that has consequences. Maybe they get a reputation for bloodthirstiness. Maybe they get a reputation of people who never take prisoners. Maybe some groups in the world respect them more (other mercs, organised crime, some guards); maybe other groups respect them less.
100% behind "make encounters, not combat encounters".
Sometimes it will seem unavoidable - the town have asked the party to slay a beast, so now they must slay a beast - but most of the time combat can be just one option.
I tend to pick the monster - a pack of dire wolves, or an Owlbear, or whatever - and then I give them a motive. The Dire Wolves have just brought down a large animal and are defending their kill, which happens to be on the road. The Owlbear is starving and is seeking food. The Whatever is just splonking across the road minding it's own business.
The motives of the encountered creatures - defensive, agressive, greedy, hungry, scared, kind, weary, mischevious - allow the encounter to progress naturally. As an example of some random encounters I placed in my world for a 1:1 adventure I was running:
a pack of wolves were defending their kill. the player went around them, and was escorted away by one of the wolves, who watched her leave. No combat required, despite their aggressive nature.
2 Wargs tried to make the player run for sport. They were very dim, and spoke broken common. They could probably have been distracted by something shiny, or promises of better things to chase, but the player decided to go combat and killed one, the other running off badly hurt.
A strange light-figure beckoned the PC off the track with calls of "help me!", "Please Help!". After careful following, the PC encountered some kobolds who were immediately hostile. She killed them, and two faerie dragons appeared, giggling, and proceeded to steal a shiny spoon from the kobold leader. They had lured her off the track to get her to deal with the kobolds who stole their spoon, using dancing lights and minor illusion, whilst remaining invisible in the trees. They were very grateful and flew around her purring and giggling as they escorted her back to the path!
Another one is for the "Fight" to be a part of another goal - possibly just a hindrance. In the "You are in a room challenge" (~see my sig), I'm running a room right now with a basically indestructable living statue (based off the Iron Golem). They basically stand no chance of winning, but the statue can be lured around the room, and the weight of this makes the room tilt, revealing levers which will unlock the door. The result of the actual fight is largely irrelevant, but the combat is key to unlocking the door!
I am also planning an encounter for another campaign which features a difficult task - collect the breath of a Gorgon. It's in a field up there, go catch it's breath in these balloons. Kill the Gorgon - you will fail the task. Go work out a plan! This sort of thing is what I'm using to try and make the players think about more than just their ability to kill things and not get killed in return!
So me and another player in the same campaign were talking recently and trying to find out why combat in our game feels so stale.
We fight a wide variety of enemies, various different compositions of enemy groups (sometimes hordes, sometimes solo bosses, sometimes smaller groups of elites). And they're always challenging, even for our level 14 party.
But, we still get SUPER bored during combat. To the point where our resident power-gamer even said last session (context: was getting late and we were on the verge of another fight) "I don't mind staying late, but I would rather not do more combat"
So it got us talking, WHY?
What we decided was that while the fights were varied in terms of monster composition, they were all just "Here's the enemies, kill 'em" with no other goals or objectives.
I also DM a game and like to throw in what I call "puzzle fights" where its a combat encounter, but with a twist such as having to beat certain monsters in a particular sequence, or having to stand on certain glowing platforms to make a boss vulnerable etc...
I was wondering if you guys had some ideas for more fun combat encounters where just "kill the enemies" isn't the only goal
Mmm... I've not had this problem personally as a DM though have experienced it in RP games in general, I haven't really had very long combat sessions in the 5e campaigns to my thinking...
Something that catches my eye in what you've said "I also DM a game and like to throw in what I call "puzzle fights" where its a combat encounter, but with a twist such as having to beat certain monsters in a particular sequence, or having to stand on certain glowing platforms to make a boss vulnerable etc..."
This isn't actually changing the objective of "kill the enemies" rather the route by which this is achieved, I'm not saying it a bad idea seems rather cool to me actually just pointing something out.
So this has me thinking what are actual encounter Objective changes to "kill the enemies"... Infiltration, exfiltration (ie hostage rescue), casualty mitigation (fighting retreat), Delaying action (holding a line choke point)
though I'm not sure that encounter objective change is even going to make encounters exciting again... Lv 14 party sounds quite high to me my guess is your players have been playing their characters for quite some time so that say the novelty of a "Fireball" scattering the enemies lines leaving shard limbs across the battlefield has somewhat waned.
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
i don't know how much roleplay you do in combat. if you don't then change that. let your players decide how to kill the monster. and describe it's actions in detail (check to make sure your party is ok with gore first though) this is how i spice it up. and reward your players for doing the roleplay. for instance if your paladin player (or any person with a shield) uses the shield to block a hit then use a reaction to do a shield bash maybe knock that thing prone or stun it for a round. no damage but an effect can really spice up combat.
as for combat in general. do something non lethal. for instance capturing a live owl bear. this way they have to fight with a challenge. non lethal damage is everything but bows and magic(magic that causes damage). this limits it and makes the wizard use other spells than fireball because he might kill it. instead he may buff the barbarian in some way. it would also get that ranger who likes to snipe get up close and personal. or maybe bind the thing up with a spell
Whenever I'm designing an encounter in my games I list each of the three pillars and write notes on how the encounter might be solved via that pillar. Not every encounter can support one of the pillars, but I've found that stopping to think about each of them for a moment makes for more dynamic encounters. At the very least I know why the monsters in the encounter will fight, and what they will fight for.
The Grey Hills Basilisk
Summary: This basilisk has been troubling prospectors in the Grey Hills for years. Any time a prospector or miner goes into the hills in search of wealth and does not return the basilisk is blamed. As characters approach it's lair they will find several remnants of statues (eaten by the basilisk). These discoveries will increase in frequency the closer a character gets to the lair.
Combat Pillar
Fighting the basilisk head on will be dangerous. It chose it's current lair instinctively and there is very little terrain to hide behind in an attempt to avoid it's gaze. The basilisk will attempt to turn any intruders it sees into stone, but will not pursue those who run away. It is content to remain close to it's lair and to feed upon the stoned remains of any who meet it's gaze.
Exploration Pillar
Nearby one of the statue remnants is the gear of a prospector who realized it was too late to run. They cast off their pack and outerwear to preserve it. Searching the contents of the pack will reveal useful gear for camping and prospecting, as well as a scroll in a finely made tube. The scroll contains an overland map to what is labeled as a "lost dwarven hall." Characters who make a DC 12 Survival check can orient themselves with this map and then follow it toward the hall.
Social Pillar
The scroll has the markings of the Rockdigger clan. Returning these items to the clan will earn their goodwill and an audience with the clan thane. The Rockdiggers will offer their goodwill to the adventurers for respecting the property of a clan member and will offer rewards for taking on quests that address their more local troubles.
I have found that just writing a line or two about each pillar in an encounter let's me be a lot more flexible in terms of what I can quickly respond to from my players. It keeps my mind open and flexible to alternatives and surprises. Instead of plotting just one answer to fill them all.
I like to write in custom ways to kill stuff. For example, for Curse of Strahd I made up a sort of Graveyard Elemental. It had about 300 hp, resistant to everything except radiant damage and regenerated 40 hp a round during combat. It hit like a truck, and while it wasn’t fast, it could punch downward, into the earth and cause an eruption at a players location to do dmg. Basically, it was an animated graveyard that was protecting the pass below castle ravenloft.
So, knowledge arcana check, DC 22, something like this would have had to have had an animating focus. That focus is a specific masoleum on the creatures back, oh yeah, it’s gargantuan, basically a walking graveyard shaped roughly like a turtle. The party Ranger makes the daring leap onto its back, pries open the masoleum, snuffs the candles around the coffin inside, making the creature go to sleep where it stood.
in those three rounds of combat the rest of the party kept getting smacked up and they ended up casting revivify on the warlock.
The party found the cipher to the book of Strahd in that masoleum as well, and a few magic items. So while they could have just beat down the critter, the arcana check, the dex checks, str checks, and finally a wisdom check, downed the monster.
I think of some of them like God of War did, finding a weakness and exploiting it will get the party further than just beating it down. Plus it leaves more room for role playing the event and cooperative play between the characters.
good luck!
If the fights are purely "You are here. Monsters are here. Fight to the death" then those encounters are going to get boring quickly. Fights are also sometimes boring if there's no real feel of threat to the party. In 5e, engaging in a battle where you know you're going to win quite easily from the offset can often take as long as a tense and scary fight because every attack still requires rolling to hit, then rolling damage, and by the time you're high level everything has 3 attacks, and so on and so on.
It's also worth considering, at 14th level, how much access do you guys have to Resurrection type spells? There is very little tension in any game where you can buy back your dead, or have access to loads of diamonds so provided the cleric survives and keeps a bag of toenail clippings everyone is just bouncing back. If you have that kind of magic, ask the DM to remove it (limiting the diamond availability - no more than one existing in the game for every 2 levels you'll go through is decent).
Here are my 'rules' (they are more like internal guidelines that I just know) for fights that I plan to include in games:
Here are some examples of memorable battles from the campaign I'm currently running:
Part of the problem is that 5e monsters are kinda boring; higher CR is just a bigger pile of hit points and damage, not something new. Of course, changing that runs the risk of making the game somewhat unplayable at high level.
The other thing you can do is just glass cannon monsters. The fights aren't inherently more interesting, but they're over faster, and there's more of a pucker factor when you're one-shotting PCs.
I don't want to say that 5e monsters are designed 'badly,' as I think that what you like in D&D can span a huge range of things, but I would say that for the types of encounters I enjoy running, they really don't meet my criteria.
5e monsters are designed for combats that last 2-3 turns, and on the basis that the monster is only likely to get off 1-2 attacks. They all seem to be glass cannons, with the emphasis on the 'glass' aspect.
Perhaps the most iconic evil monster in D&D is the Adult Red Dragon. With a fearsome CR17, it deals a nasty 63 (18d6) Fire damage with its breath weapon. Ouch! But wait. Our party of level 8 PCs are each sitting on about 70 hit points. They can cut the damage to 31 on a successful save. The Rogue can reduce it to nil. The wizard can absorb elements it to half again. But hey, he still threw out quite a lot of damage overall... Then our Level 8 PCs with +1 weapons commence attacking. +9 or +10 to hit isn't uncommon, making that 19AC look a bit paltry. The Barbarian is already under a fly spell so he's dishing out GWM attacks, landing 25 to 50 damage on a turn. With just 256 hit points, facing off against a 4 character party our poor old red dragon is going to last around 2 turns of combat before it dies thrashing in the dirt. And if they had a few Potions of Fire Resistance, our intrepid heroes pretty much shrugged off our dragon's ace in the hole.
Part of the issue comes down to min-max builds with characters taking feats that bolster the characters, but those are just part of the game. Everyone min-maxes if they know the rules: why wouldn't they?
And all that is fine if you like combat to be a brief flurry, or you like to run lots and lots of small combats per game. Published modules, such as some of the adventures in Candlekeep Mysteries book seem to follow this playstyle. But I like combats that last 5-9 turns, with strategic choices, unusual spells going off, time to RP in combat and see the players really sweat. These monster designs don't work for me, so I homebrew basically everything. My dragons have double the hit points of the standard ones, just to give them a few turns.
If your fighting just to fight it can start to feel pointless because it is, in fact, pointless.
Why are you fighting? And, if you don't have an answer to that question there are no: stakes.
You need to have something to lose, something needs to be determined by the fate of the battle. More than even just your character's lives or the lives of the monsters.
Are you protecting people? Is there diplomatic/political fallout to the fate of this fight? What changes happen as a result of this encounter? Are they trying to get a McGuffin? Are you trying to get the McGuffin, but they're stopping you?
If there is nothing outside of the death/life of the combatants themselves at risk then the fights start to seem stale because, well, we sorta already know the PCs ain't dying, right? So nothing is actually at stake here.
But if the monsters can achieve a victory within the battle, destroy a wall, open a barrier, steal a McGuffin, etc, then the PC CAN lose, even if they ultimately win the fight.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I would expect three rounds if it starts the encounter with its multiattack; frightful presence slows things down a lot. It also sounds like you've got somewhat overpowered PCs, typical level 8 hp is about 60, and you're permitting prebuffing, which in general means you should give the monsters equivalent advantages (just use the spellcasting variant and have it come in with Improved Invisibility, for example).
5-9 round combats are a slog and will contribute to combats seeming stale.
Any L8 party who fights an adult red dragon is asking for a TPK. It'll be over quick but that's not a good thing for the party.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I've been using Matt Colville's advice for bringing 4e monster abilities into 5e. Things like giving regular monsters reactions and bonus actions, bursts when they have half of their hit points left, having them change into other creatures when they hit half or 0 hit points.
That seems to have spiced combat up for my Level 11 players. They have said they feel challenged and comment on aspects that I have added that are fun or had them a little worried.
Combat always has a reason in my games. If they are fighting it's not because they came across a random monster. That helps. They have to fight because if they don't something terrible will happen. I allow players to state they want to capture instead of kill so when something reaches 0 HP it is just uncurious not dead. I have intelligent monsters run away so it isn't just hack, slash, kill for all of the time.
Huh. I haven't seen that. It's actually pretty easy to convert 4e monsters to 5e -- set their max hit point to the bloodied value, recompute attack bonus and defenses, generally use the 5e definitions of conditions that exist in both editions, done (CR... meh, whatever; I suggest a level N encounter from 4e would be an interesting challenge for level 2+N/2 in 5e, where 'interesting' does not mean 'medium').
In order to deal with the basilisk though the characters will eventually have to fight it, you have populated the area and given them other things to do but none of those point to an alternative to “kill the basilisk to keep the miners safe”
I once had a similar encounter, I came up with an option where the party might relocate the monster away from where it was attacking locals if they decided to go that way.
As for the OP, do your fights have a purpose? It is one reason I never use a random encounter table, every encounter that will result in combat has as much importance to the story as every social encounter, even if it is a very small detail the players may never pick up on. Those wolves attacking in the woods are hungry because the bandit gang the party are hunting has been impacting the food chain.
If you feel you are fighting just for the sake of rolling dice then it loses purpose and becomes just another fight.
They need be a ninja to capture the mcguffin. Rogues and way of the shadow monks only (probaly some others but I only have the 3 core books)
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Totally disagree that long combats are stale. If you build the combat to be exciting, plot driven, and feature the type of dynamic non-standard elements that the OP is looking for, you'll be able to make them utterly thrilling for your players. If combat feels a slog it's because the players aren't invested in them, aren't desperate to take another turn, but also are probably either just a routine hack'n'slash or the story hasn't built the players to a point where this feels like a critical moment.
Last session my players spent 2 hours of gameplay just trying not to get sucked into a portal. None of us could believe that the time had flown by so quickly when it did. Combats often last 2-3 hours in my sessions, and the players really enjoy them. But I know that they wouldn't be if I gave them just a big field of minotaurs to wade through.
Check out the 12 hour long boss fight finale of Critical Role season 2. The whole thing is interesting because the mechanics keep changing, there is constantly RP throughout, and because it's a climactic culmination of all the characters fears and motivations. Long =/= not fun.
Re: dragon, yeah maybe 3 turns. That's still hardly a dragon fight at all.
I suggest you stop using the term "combat encounter."
Because there is no such thing as a "combat encounter."
An encounter is a situation with something between the PCs and their objective. Combat is simply one of the tools they can use to resolve the encounter.
As a GM, don't plan combat; plan obstacles. Think about two or three ways the players could have their characters overcome the obstacles.
Then (important) make the players' choice matter!
For example, if the players choose combat then that has consequences. Maybe they get a reputation for bloodthirstiness. Maybe they get a reputation of people who never take prisoners. Maybe some groups in the world respect them more (other mercs, organised crime, some guards); maybe other groups respect them less.
100% behind "make encounters, not combat encounters".
Sometimes it will seem unavoidable - the town have asked the party to slay a beast, so now they must slay a beast - but most of the time combat can be just one option.
I tend to pick the monster - a pack of dire wolves, or an Owlbear, or whatever - and then I give them a motive. The Dire Wolves have just brought down a large animal and are defending their kill, which happens to be on the road. The Owlbear is starving and is seeking food. The Whatever is just splonking across the road minding it's own business.
The motives of the encountered creatures - defensive, agressive, greedy, hungry, scared, kind, weary, mischevious - allow the encounter to progress naturally. As an example of some random encounters I placed in my world for a 1:1 adventure I was running:
Another one is for the "Fight" to be a part of another goal - possibly just a hindrance. In the "You are in a room challenge" (~see my sig), I'm running a room right now with a basically indestructable living statue (based off the Iron Golem). They basically stand no chance of winning, but the statue can be lured around the room, and the weight of this makes the room tilt, revealing levers which will unlock the door. The result of the actual fight is largely irrelevant, but the combat is key to unlocking the door!
I am also planning an encounter for another campaign which features a difficult task - collect the breath of a Gorgon. It's in a field up there, go catch it's breath in these balloons. Kill the Gorgon - you will fail the task. Go work out a plan! This sort of thing is what I'm using to try and make the players think about more than just their ability to kill things and not get killed in return!
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