What kind of annoying players have you had that you can’t kick and how did you deal with them?
I have an overly giggly 15 year old who devolves the session into a “let’s do silly things for the meme of it” that no one else enjoys. Nearly caused multiple TPKs from silly antics to not listening then deciding to try and drag other characters into an obvious trap because it’s “funny”. Still haven’t figured out how to deal with it other than just end the session whenever he gets to that point. Even ending the session mid-combat while another player was excited to hear the description of their killing blow to a zombie. His antics kills the mood for everyone. Last time we played, the party was in a fight with Venomfang as an ally to kill an abomination the dragon was forced to spawn by a ritual performed by a cultist controlled by an intellect devourer. The music was really setting the mood until suddenly it stopped and began to blast fart sounds as he bust out laughing. Really killed the mood.
kind of wondering that myself @Beardsinger the plight of the paid DM? or The Trials and tribulations of family? I guess whatever the reason, communication is the key to a amicable solution.
Thankfully never been in that situation as a DM and when I've found myself as a player in a group that didn't suit me for whatever reason I've been quite quick to come to the conclusion to leave without drama and wasting as little of people's time as possible.
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
Beyond recognizing a maturity gap between the rest of the table and the problem player, there's not much help that can be given to improve the dynamic. Why is intervention of any form including suspension/dismissal from the table not an option? Is it "No D&D unless relative plays with you and your friends too" or "He's everyone's ride?" Emotional intelligence and maturity are variable and volatile in 15 year old boys, how to remedy it largely depends on the make up of the table. Rather than solicit advice from the internet, this is better for reflecting "what do we do about this guy?" to the rest of your table. Who knows, maybe the only one feeling the frustration is you. If it's not, the table should try to determine some way to contend with the behavior.
You mention "gets to that point". You may as DM or table consensus need to take breaks in session. Not end the session, just as soon as the offending player starts to tangent, reaches that point, you. say, "I'm sorry that's outside table expectations, I'm going to call the session out of order, let's all take fifteen minutes and try to get back to the game we're all trying to play after that." Attention span is an issue at 15, so it could be your epic sessions (if you're playing anything more than two hours, from my experience, younger folks are going to get restless) need to punctuate some breaks. They can be structured, built into the session or triggered by bad behavior. Using these sorts of "rules of order" type table rules, and speaking in terms of needing to take a break, with a schedule, and throw in a fancy work like "reconvene" the player may get the sense that the game is more than something for them to get their jollies from disrespecting. Everyone else models, actually overacts, how "serious" they play, the problem may get a clue.
I am DMing for slightly younger kids (family/friends) who are somewhat as unruly.
We’ve only had 13 sessions so far, but time has helped us settle in. Also, sessions are short (90min tops). Also, and this is just partly who I am as a parent, and these are kids I know outside of the game, I am not afraid to “parent” the player and lay down rules about language. Thing is, this gets tricky, particularly if you’re not used to problem solving this stuff in a useful way. Because you have to figure out the reason for the underlying behavior. Maybe you have someone you can talk to about that, maybe you don’t.
In the meantime, I’d start a session making a set of agreements about player behavior that can work for everyone. That means tolerating a bit of chaotic/annoying behavior, but putting boundaries on it so it doesn’t ruin the experience for everyone else. (And you can be quite frank about those tradeoff.) The agreement should be made collaboratively, not by edict.
Finally, let natural consequences happen. We had a character making excessively risky choices find themselves one nat20 away from perma-death. I would have let the death go through, as a natural consequence. Also, the party has absolutely left the player behind, not trusting their antics, and I let that go too. If the player tries to catch up, normal rules apply - no deus ex machina help for them.
I’m helped in this case by the fact that I like my player who is doing the questionable decision making. They’re a good person that is creative, unique, and enjoyable. Knowing that helps. If you have that, make use of it.
Finally, if you are aware of any neurodivergence issues, lean into that when coming up with ideas. If you’re asking an unmedicated ADHD teen to sit at a table for three hours playing a game that requires a lot of patiently waiting for someone else’s turn… that person has kinda been set up for failure. You may not be aware of an issue even if there is one, but if you’re aware think through that lens as well.
Can you just have a frank conversation with them asking point blank if they want to keep playing? Then share that nobody else enjoys their distractions so if they wish to play in the group they will have to stop the antics. If they don't immediately stop the antics, then just say, well we're going to have to continue the campaign without you. If you're interested in rejoining our group, we'll invite you back in a few months.
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Talk to your players, all of them. At the same time. If the consensus is that one bad apple is ruining the bunch and you can't pick out the bad apple, remove the bunch. Stop DMing for the group if your problem player refuses to stop. "No D&D" is better than "bad D&D".
I do have a player or two that are attention challenged and long sessions are a no-go for us. Usually about 90min in we break for about 15-20 minutes to eat, bio, talk, that type of thing. Then we rejoin for the next 90min block and that ends the session. There are a couple of other small breaks to get the chat out, check in with on-call jobs and family and the like. This does seem to help, but does not eliminate the issue altogether.
Unless the over giggly 15 year old problem player is you, you have the ability to refuse to allow them to play in your game. Should you choose to not allow that as an option is on you. Can't does not equal Won't. Kicking a player is always an option. You have the unfortunate duty of deciding if it's the most productive option for everyone involved. Understand that it is possible that this person will learn from this encounter and potentially grow from it. But, for that to happen, they have to be allowed to have a teachable moment and you have to be able to provide the instruction. If no one else enjoys this person's antics, removing them from the group is an option that you as the DM have to be able to leverage to adhere to the social contract at your table. You can only fail as a DM if the game is un-fun.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Kill them? It seems like you are pulling your punches. I know you can't kick them but make their actions have consequences. Rushing into an ambush? Focussed fire. Jumping onto a trap? Deadly damage. They will learn in the end.
If you can't kick them, curse them. There is a demon/patron/god who has seen the issues going on here (extra points if the party has a cleric whose god is looking out for them) and the problem player has just recieved a familiar who will disrupt their behaviour. Every time they try to make a bad idea, the familiar will do something to fix it - telling people to ignore his advice, or waiting for them to attempt it before outright tripping them or stopping them and explaining how they are saving their lives by stopping them from charging into the enemy or kidnapping the mayors horse or just pulling every lever in the room which is clearly a trap in which you need to pick one lever to pull. Maybe even have them "possess" them, as a dark guardian angel. "You go to pull the first lever, and your hand stops, and a voice whispers in your head "Do you really think that's a good idea? Maybe you should think about it a little more". You find yourself incapable of pulling the lever right now - every attempt you make is stopped by the guardian angel. Make it clear that they are only there to save them from themselves, and will never help them in a fight.
I am having about the same problem, a player in my campaign is doing stuff even though I make it clear what he has to do. He also like to do weird stuff, and also once told me I had to exit the room so they could come up with a plan behind my back (I figured this out by covering my ears, but could still hear them. They also like to steal the spotlight, and they literally look through the rules in order to break them, and they say that I can’t change the base rules of the game. What do I do?
Also, they say that as a dm, I am not allowed to look at their character, because they think I am going to edit it. I believe that they might be cheating and just don’t want me to find out.
I am having about the same problem, a player in my campaign is doing stuff even though I make it clear what he has to do. He also like to do weird stuff, and also once told me I had to exit the room so they could come up with a plan behind my back (I figured this out by covering my ears, but could still hear them. They also like to steal the spotlight, and they literally look through the rules in order to break them, and they say that I can’t change the base rules of the game. What do I do?
Also, they say that as a dm, I am not allowed to look at their character, because they think I am going to edit it. I believe that they might be cheating and just don’t want me to find out.
Oh boy... em... how old is your group? I'm getting the vib this is quite the young group of players with a fully installed its all about the winning capitalist mindset approach... Players vs DM game is what's going on your the DM its your game you certainly can look at the characters playing in your game and if you want to change the rules to suit your game you can
Doesn't sound like your having fun which you should be only way out is to be honest with your players and talk to them about what the game is and what it is and it isn't a me vs you
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“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
I am having about the same problem, a player in my campaign is doing stuff even though I make it clear what he has to do. He also like to do weird stuff, and also once told me I had to exit the room so they could come up with a plan behind my back
I'll begin my response by saying I sympathise with you for having a problem player, my questioning is by no means meant to be antagonistic. I would first like to ask "what makes them unkickable" because as the DM you are the Good God Almighty, what you say goes. If you tell them that you're getting fed up with this cloak and dagger, or want to earn their trust to alleviate the need for it, they might help you find a suitable middle-ground. Failing that, you can tell them that they need to find a DM/group that fits their style of play, and give them notice that they're either being booted or you're leaving (of course, the other decent players are more than welcome to join you).
For your peace of mind, I dislike the idea of players keeping secrets from their DM. I believe one poster said it quite eloquently on this forum, but "if the DM doesn't know about it, it doesn't exist or happen." It's one thing for a player to ask another to leave the room for a secret in-character discussion, or for the DM and player to have just a one-on-one character chat (sometimes for comedic effect; i.e it's just a bogus chat to add suspense for the players not present), but players keeping things from the DM is shady, as the referee should see and hear what happens at their table. If the players don't trust their DM to not change things up to spite the players, that requires an out-of-game discussion immediately. They should also be reminded that if you wanted to cheat, you could have a Stone Juggernaut roll out of nowhere and flatten them without saves.
They also like to steal the spotlight, and they literally look through the rules in order to break them, and they say that I can’t change the base rules of the game. What do I do?
Stealing the spotlight sucks and some players can't help it, I'm afraid I don't have a solution for that other than to ask everyone if they're OK with an action, or if there's anything they'd like to do before narrating the results. You can decide if someone is taking too many 'actions' even out of combat too.
The second one is powergaming, and the third one relates to my next point: you decide how the game is run, not the books. You as the Dungeon Master (DM) are the sole authority of the game, and you decide which rules and rulings you allow, bend, and break for the flow and fun of the game. Make this clear to them.
Sun Tzu says, "If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the general is to blame. But if his orders ARE clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." In this case you are the general, the soldiers are the characters, and the officers are the players. This is a player problem, deal with the player, not the character. I must advise that you don't flagellate yourself for failing to make yourself clear, or beheading your players after making yourself clear. Kicking them from the table will suffice.
Also, they say that as a dm, I am not allowed to look at their character, because they think I am going to edit it. I believe that they might be cheating and just don’t want me to find out.
Bunkum. There's nothing anywhere that says DMs can't look at your sheet whenever they're at the table. If anything, they should see them during Session Zero or as close to the first session as possible so they can adjust and run encounters fairly.
Keep copies and have them signed if you have to, but honestly, players who are that stingy about their sheets raise alarm bells. Were I in your shoes I'd say the campaign doesn't begin until I review their sheet so I know they're not editing it. For future reference, get copies per level up as well, just so you know what they have in terms of spells, maximum hit points, and proficiency bonuses.
There's not much you can tell these players other than to stop doing it, or find another table that will allow them to. You can take it out on their characters but that's hindering the party and not dealing with the munchkin who will only make more characters that try to 'win' (again, in a game where the DM can say 'rocks fall, everybody dies'), all the while making the rest of the table miserable.
I hope myself and others are able to help, and wish you luck with this.
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Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
I am having about the same problem, a player in my campaign is doing stuff even though I make it clear what he has to do. He also like to do weird stuff, and also once told me I had to exit the room so they could come up with a plan behind my back (I figured this out by covering my ears, but could still hear them. They also like to steal the spotlight, and they literally look through the rules in order to break them, and they say that I can’t change the base rules of the game. What do I do?
Also, they say that as a dm, I am not allowed to look at their character, because they think I am going to edit it. I believe that they might be cheating and just don’t want me to find out.
On this tangent the "don't look at my character" is very akin to the idea of "Why do you get have your stuff behind a screen, DM? What are you hiding?" and it relates back to an adversarial style of DMing, also common in the older games. In those cases the DM was out to "get" the players and in many groups it was seen as a 4v1 game, 4 players "against" the Dungeon Master. But games don't have to be that way and I think they're better when they're not.
But that does require trust; it means your players have to believe that you're there for them to have fun just as much as you're there to challenge them with good combat and interesting puzzles. Really you can kill the players at any time. Just drop a monster in that's JUST SLIGHTLY too tough for them. You do that and suddenly it's a TPK and they can't say that it's not fair because, well, it was really close. Game over.
A good DM wouldn't do that, though. They want the players to feel some challenge but, to me, they want the players to succeed just as much as the players do. And that's infinitely easier when the DM can see the character sheets so they know what to highlight and play to.
IMO there is no such thing as "unkickable" players. D&D is meant to be fun for all involved and if one player (or the DM) is being disruptive and ruining the fun for the others, BOOT! Yes, I would, without hesitation, boot a family member or if I was the gold-digging type running paid games, I would refund at least part of the payment to all players if I had to drop the campaign, or refund the one I booted. As a few have said, No D&D is better than Bad D&D, so issues are either resolved or the issue is removed, point period.
So far as players dictating what the DM can and can't do, looking at their characters, changing rules, I actually barked a sharp laugh at that, and would do so, in the face of a player who tried that spiel on me. MY game, MY world, MY rules. You, as a player then have a choice, abide by these rules or find a new game. DM's are hard to find, while players are like sand on a beach, so when they start overstepping their bounds, drop them, as they are EASILY replaceable, while a DM is MUCH less so.
I hate reading about DMs who are dedicating their time and energy into running a campaign to face self-important little twerps who think only of themselves. Some folks need to be smacked in the face with a reality check. As always, talk to people, but it's been my experience that people as disruptive, disrespectful and selfish as those described thus far, won't change their behavior to something more acceptable, so they need to go. I am a tolerant DM and I do allow the group a fair bit of leeway for silliness and such, but I have zero tolerance for BS ruining the game for the rest of us and even less tolerance for cheaters, which, if the player INSISTS you can't look at their character, is 99% certainly happening. Make sure they understand that while it is collaborative storytelling, ONE person is RUNNING the game, while the rest are PLAYING it.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
music was really setting the mood until suddenly it stopped and began to blast fart sounds as he bust out laughing. Really killed the mood.
Haaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!
That is honestly hilarious. Good trolling deserves props.
It may be funny to you and him, but was it funny for the rest of the players & the DM? Personally, I've been in groups that are fine to meme and go off the rails, but I've also played in serious groups where the weight of the story was held in high regard. This sounds like a group that was really relishing in the drama and the fart prank killed all the tension. Also, I really shouldn't judge players based on one forum post, but the player in the original post sounded really immature, even for a teenager.
I am having about the same problem, a player in my campaign is doing stuff even though I make it clear what he has to do. He also like to do weird stuff, and also once told me I had to exit the room so they could come up with a plan behind my back (I figured this out by covering my ears, but could still hear them. They also like to steal the spotlight, and they literally look through the rules in order to break them, and they say that I can’t change the base rules of the game. What do I do?
Also, they say that as a dm, I am not allowed to look at their character, because they think I am going to edit it. I believe that they might be cheating and just don’t want me to find out.
To Densake, I'd recommend communication above all else. Make it clear that you are trying to play with them, not against them. Explain how you are trying to work with them to create the best possible game, and sometimes as a DM that means hiding stats, battle plans, and rolls to not spoil the tension. Also explain that to do your job as DM most effectively, you need to see their stats/character sheet so you can tailor the adventure. I'd also maybe do a good-faith gesture in-game to show that you are really working with them (for example, when they were scheming, you could have pointed out something they missed or help build off their ideas).
Of course, if you are uncomfortable as DM, as a last resort you can always draw a line in the sand. The game literally cannot go on without you there, and if that group isn't playing how you want to play, you can always tell them that you won't run games for them anymore. This is very much the nuclear option, and overusing it creates toxicity within the group, but if you ain't happy with that group, you ain't happy.
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What kind of annoying players have you had that you can’t kick and how did you deal with them?
I have an overly giggly 15 year old who devolves the session into a “let’s do silly things for the meme of it” that no one else enjoys. Nearly caused multiple TPKs from silly antics to not listening then deciding to try and drag other characters into an obvious trap because it’s “funny”. Still haven’t figured out how to deal with it other than just end the session whenever he gets to that point. Even ending the session mid-combat while another player was excited to hear the description of their killing blow to a zombie. His antics kills the mood for everyone. Last time we played, the party was in a fight with Venomfang as an ally to kill an abomination the dragon was forced to spawn by a ritual performed by a cultist controlled by an intellect devourer. The music was really setting the mood until suddenly it stopped and began to blast fart sounds as he bust out laughing. Really killed the mood.
Why can't you kick him?
yeh, that's an unruly player. Tell them to get their 5h17 together or get off the table.
kind of wondering that myself @Beardsinger the plight of the paid DM? or The Trials and tribulations of family? I guess whatever the reason, communication is the key to a amicable solution.
Thankfully never been in that situation as a DM and when I've found myself as a player in a group that didn't suit me for whatever reason I've been quite quick to come to the conclusion to leave without drama and wasting as little of people's time as possible.
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
Beyond recognizing a maturity gap between the rest of the table and the problem player, there's not much help that can be given to improve the dynamic. Why is intervention of any form including suspension/dismissal from the table not an option? Is it "No D&D unless relative plays with you and your friends too" or "He's everyone's ride?" Emotional intelligence and maturity are variable and volatile in 15 year old boys, how to remedy it largely depends on the make up of the table. Rather than solicit advice from the internet, this is better for reflecting "what do we do about this guy?" to the rest of your table. Who knows, maybe the only one feeling the frustration is you. If it's not, the table should try to determine some way to contend with the behavior.
You mention "gets to that point". You may as DM or table consensus need to take breaks in session. Not end the session, just as soon as the offending player starts to tangent, reaches that point, you. say, "I'm sorry that's outside table expectations, I'm going to call the session out of order, let's all take fifteen minutes and try to get back to the game we're all trying to play after that." Attention span is an issue at 15, so it could be your epic sessions (if you're playing anything more than two hours, from my experience, younger folks are going to get restless) need to punctuate some breaks. They can be structured, built into the session or triggered by bad behavior. Using these sorts of "rules of order" type table rules, and speaking in terms of needing to take a break, with a schedule, and throw in a fancy work like "reconvene" the player may get the sense that the game is more than something for them to get their jollies from disrespecting. Everyone else models, actually overacts, how "serious" they play, the problem may get a clue.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I am DMing for slightly younger kids (family/friends) who are somewhat as unruly.
We’ve only had 13 sessions so far, but time has helped us settle in. Also, sessions are short (90min tops). Also, and this is just partly who I am as a parent, and these are kids I know outside of the game, I am not afraid to “parent” the player and lay down rules about language. Thing is, this gets tricky, particularly if you’re not used to problem solving this stuff in a useful way. Because you have to figure out the reason for the underlying behavior. Maybe you have someone you can talk to about that, maybe you don’t.
In the meantime, I’d start a session making a set of agreements about player behavior that can work for everyone. That means tolerating a bit of chaotic/annoying behavior, but putting boundaries on it so it doesn’t ruin the experience for everyone else. (And you can be quite frank about those tradeoff.) The agreement should be made collaboratively, not by edict.
Finally, let natural consequences happen. We had a character making excessively risky choices find themselves one nat20 away from perma-death. I would have let the death go through, as a natural consequence. Also, the party has absolutely left the player behind, not trusting their antics, and I let that go too. If the player tries to catch up, normal rules apply - no deus ex machina help for them.
I’m helped in this case by the fact that I like my player who is doing the questionable decision making. They’re a good person that is creative, unique, and enjoyable. Knowing that helps. If you have that, make use of it.
Finally, if you are aware of any neurodivergence issues, lean into that when coming up with ideas. If you’re asking an unmedicated ADHD teen to sit at a table for three hours playing a game that requires a lot of patiently waiting for someone else’s turn… that person has kinda been set up for failure. You may not be aware of an issue even if there is one, but if you’re aware think through that lens as well.
Can you just have a frank conversation with them asking point blank if they want to keep playing? Then share that nobody else enjoys their distractions so if they wish to play in the group they will have to stop the antics. If they don't immediately stop the antics, then just say, well we're going to have to continue the campaign without you. If you're interested in rejoining our group, we'll invite you back in a few months.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Talk to your players, all of them. At the same time. If the consensus is that one bad apple is ruining the bunch and you can't pick out the bad apple, remove the bunch. Stop DMing for the group if your problem player refuses to stop. "No D&D" is better than "bad D&D".
I do have a player or two that are attention challenged and long sessions are a no-go for us. Usually about 90min in we break for about 15-20 minutes to eat, bio, talk, that type of thing. Then we rejoin for the next 90min block and that ends the session. There are a couple of other small breaks to get the chat out, check in with on-call jobs and family and the like. This does seem to help, but does not eliminate the issue altogether.
Unless the over giggly 15 year old problem player is you, you have the ability to refuse to allow them to play in your game. Should you choose to not allow that as an option is on you. Can't does not equal Won't. Kicking a player is always an option. You have the unfortunate duty of deciding if it's the most productive option for everyone involved. Understand that it is possible that this person will learn from this encounter and potentially grow from it. But, for that to happen, they have to be allowed to have a teachable moment and you have to be able to provide the instruction. If no one else enjoys this person's antics, removing them from the group is an option that you as the DM have to be able to leverage to adhere to the social contract at your table. You can only fail as a DM if the game is un-fun.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Kill them? It seems like you are pulling your punches. I know you can't kick them but make their actions have consequences. Rushing into an ambush? Focussed fire. Jumping onto a trap? Deadly damage. They will learn in the end.
If you can't kick them, curse them. There is a demon/patron/god who has seen the issues going on here (extra points if the party has a cleric whose god is looking out for them) and the problem player has just recieved a familiar who will disrupt their behaviour. Every time they try to make a bad idea, the familiar will do something to fix it - telling people to ignore his advice, or waiting for them to attempt it before outright tripping them or stopping them and explaining how they are saving their lives by stopping them from charging into the enemy or kidnapping the mayors horse or just pulling every lever in the room which is clearly a trap in which you need to pick one lever to pull. Maybe even have them "possess" them, as a dark guardian angel. "You go to pull the first lever, and your hand stops, and a voice whispers in your head "Do you really think that's a good idea? Maybe you should think about it a little more". You find yourself incapable of pulling the lever right now - every attempt you make is stopped by the guardian angel. Make it clear that they are only there to save them from themselves, and will never help them in a fight.
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I am having about the same problem, a player in my campaign is doing stuff even though I make it clear what he has to do. He also like to do weird stuff, and also once told me I had to exit the room so they could come up with a plan behind my back (I figured this out by covering my ears, but could still hear them. They also like to steal the spotlight, and they literally look through the rules in order to break them, and they say that I can’t change the base rules of the game. What do I do?
Also, they say that as a dm, I am not allowed to look at their character, because they think I am going to edit it. I believe that they might be cheating and just don’t want me to find out.
It pronounced Den Sake. It is not Japanese.
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Semi-Expert at homebrew, just ask for my help.
Oh boy... em... how old is your group? I'm getting the vib this is quite the young group of players with a fully installed its all about the winning capitalist mindset approach...
Players vs DM game is what's going on
your the DM its your game you certainly can look at the characters playing in your game and if you want to change the rules to suit your game you can
Doesn't sound like your having fun which you should be only way out is to be honest with your players and talk to them about what the game is and what it is and it isn't a me vs you
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
I'll begin my response by saying I sympathise with you for having a problem player, my questioning is by no means meant to be antagonistic. I would first like to ask "what makes them unkickable" because as the DM you are the Good God Almighty, what you say goes. If you tell them that you're getting fed up with this cloak and dagger, or want to earn their trust to alleviate the need for it, they might help you find a suitable middle-ground. Failing that, you can tell them that they need to find a DM/group that fits their style of play, and give them notice that they're either being booted or you're leaving (of course, the other decent players are more than welcome to join you).
For your peace of mind, I dislike the idea of players keeping secrets from their DM. I believe one poster said it quite eloquently on this forum, but "if the DM doesn't know about it, it doesn't exist or happen." It's one thing for a player to ask another to leave the room for a secret in-character discussion, or for the DM and player to have just a one-on-one character chat (sometimes for comedic effect; i.e it's just a bogus chat to add suspense for the players not present), but players keeping things from the DM is shady, as the referee should see and hear what happens at their table. If the players don't trust their DM to not change things up to spite the players, that requires an out-of-game discussion immediately. They should also be reminded that if you wanted to cheat, you could have a Stone Juggernaut roll out of nowhere and flatten them without saves.
Stealing the spotlight sucks and some players can't help it, I'm afraid I don't have a solution for that other than to ask everyone if they're OK with an action, or if there's anything they'd like to do before narrating the results. You can decide if someone is taking too many 'actions' even out of combat too.
The second one is powergaming, and the third one relates to my next point: you decide how the game is run, not the books. You as the Dungeon Master (DM) are the sole authority of the game, and you decide which rules and rulings you allow, bend, and break for the flow and fun of the game. Make this clear to them.
Sun Tzu says, "If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the general is to blame. But if his orders ARE clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." In this case you are the general, the soldiers are the characters, and the officers are the players. This is a player problem, deal with the player, not the character. I must advise that you don't flagellate yourself for failing to make yourself clear, or beheading your players after making yourself clear. Kicking them from the table will suffice.
Bunkum. There's nothing anywhere that says DMs can't look at your sheet whenever they're at the table. If anything, they should see them during Session Zero or as close to the first session as possible so they can adjust and run encounters fairly.
Keep copies and have them signed if you have to, but honestly, players who are that stingy about their sheets raise alarm bells. Were I in your shoes I'd say the campaign doesn't begin until I review their sheet so I know they're not editing it. For future reference, get copies per level up as well, just so you know what they have in terms of spells, maximum hit points, and proficiency bonuses.
There's not much you can tell these players other than to stop doing it, or find another table that will allow them to. You can take it out on their characters but that's hindering the party and not dealing with the munchkin who will only make more characters that try to 'win' (again, in a game where the DM can say 'rocks fall, everybody dies'), all the while making the rest of the table miserable.
I hope myself and others are able to help, and wish you luck with this.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
- The Assemblage of Houses, World of Warcraft
Thanks a lot!
It pronounced Den Sake. It is not Japanese.
Website character sheet not working fix (Hopefully)
Semi-Expert at homebrew, just ask for my help.
On this tangent the "don't look at my character" is very akin to the idea of "Why do you get have your stuff behind a screen, DM? What are you hiding?" and it relates back to an adversarial style of DMing, also common in the older games. In those cases the DM was out to "get" the players and in many groups it was seen as a 4v1 game, 4 players "against" the Dungeon Master. But games don't have to be that way and I think they're better when they're not.
But that does require trust; it means your players have to believe that you're there for them to have fun just as much as you're there to challenge them with good combat and interesting puzzles. Really you can kill the players at any time. Just drop a monster in that's JUST SLIGHTLY too tough for them. You do that and suddenly it's a TPK and they can't say that it's not fair because, well, it was really close. Game over.
A good DM wouldn't do that, though. They want the players to feel some challenge but, to me, they want the players to succeed just as much as the players do. And that's infinitely easier when the DM can see the character sheets so they know what to highlight and play to.
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IMO there is no such thing as "unkickable" players. D&D is meant to be fun for all involved and if one player (or the DM) is being disruptive and ruining the fun for the others, BOOT! Yes, I would, without hesitation, boot a family member or if I was the gold-digging type running paid games, I would refund at least part of the payment to all players if I had to drop the campaign, or refund the one I booted. As a few have said, No D&D is better than Bad D&D, so issues are either resolved or the issue is removed, point period.
So far as players dictating what the DM can and can't do, looking at their characters, changing rules, I actually barked a sharp laugh at that, and would do so, in the face of a player who tried that spiel on me. MY game, MY world, MY rules. You, as a player then have a choice, abide by these rules or find a new game. DM's are hard to find, while players are like sand on a beach, so when they start overstepping their bounds, drop them, as they are EASILY replaceable, while a DM is MUCH less so.
I hate reading about DMs who are dedicating their time and energy into running a campaign to face self-important little twerps who think only of themselves. Some folks need to be smacked in the face with a reality check. As always, talk to people, but it's been my experience that people as disruptive, disrespectful and selfish as those described thus far, won't change their behavior to something more acceptable, so they need to go. I am a tolerant DM and I do allow the group a fair bit of leeway for silliness and such, but I have zero tolerance for BS ruining the game for the rest of us and even less tolerance for cheaters, which, if the player INSISTS you can't look at their character, is 99% certainly happening. Make sure they understand that while it is collaborative storytelling, ONE person is RUNNING the game, while the rest are PLAYING it.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Haaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!
That is honestly hilarious. Good trolling deserves props.
It may be funny to you and him, but was it funny for the rest of the players & the DM? Personally, I've been in groups that are fine to meme and go off the rails, but I've also played in serious groups where the weight of the story was held in high regard. This sounds like a group that was really relishing in the drama and the fart prank killed all the tension. Also, I really shouldn't judge players based on one forum post, but the player in the original post sounded really immature, even for a teenager.
To Densake, I'd recommend communication above all else. Make it clear that you are trying to play with them, not against them. Explain how you are trying to work with them to create the best possible game, and sometimes as a DM that means hiding stats, battle plans, and rolls to not spoil the tension. Also explain that to do your job as DM most effectively, you need to see their stats/character sheet so you can tailor the adventure. I'd also maybe do a good-faith gesture in-game to show that you are really working with them (for example, when they were scheming, you could have pointed out something they missed or help build off their ideas).
Of course, if you are uncomfortable as DM, as a last resort you can always draw a line in the sand. The game literally cannot go on without you there, and if that group isn't playing how you want to play, you can always tell them that you won't run games for them anymore. This is very much the nuclear option, and overusing it creates toxicity within the group, but if you ain't happy with that group, you ain't happy.