so i am running a 5e game and the players are 10th about to be 11th. They are currently on Acheron chasing down an artifact sword. So as part of the plot to the story i want to kill them so a devil cult there can steal there souls that the cult then uses souls to fuel there magic and help their particular lord, that they want to free. Does this feel too railroady? am taking to much away from the players? The idea was once there they find the artifact, but now they have to go about repairing their souls. their souls fracture into different parts, and before they can leave that plan of hell that there bodies get pulled to their souls must be made whole again.
just one thing I'm trying to understand before answering on your course of action: if someone kills them and steals their souls, how are they even coming back? are they going to resurrect themselves?
I think players could feel vastly different about this depending on their individual feelings and personalities. New players especially might feel frustrated being put into a fight they can't win, and being unaware that it's supposed to be unwinnable. Personally, I wouldn't like the DM taking control of my character for a cutscene in which my character is killed. But other players may certainly prefer it to feeling forced into a no-win scenario. Do you think you could talk about the concept with them in a theoretical way, without spoiling the plot? If you can gauge their feelings beforehand, then you'll have your answer.
Even if you just talk with them about it in a hypothetical way and share YOUR feelings about it, it might help smooth the situation for them when it actually happens.
thanks, i like the cut scene idea. maybe it starts as what looks like a winnable fight, but more monsters keep piling in. then go to a cut scene. the idea was that they awaken in a cult of Levistus's temple on the 5th plane of hell with there souls fractured and now they have to make some quests to repair there souls.
I would go with some diablo (pc game) trick. Let them win, find some crystal that will be pure evil. Let them destroy it save the world end then this cristal could steal their souls
Personally, I would just go for it. There are plenty of old Ravenloft ad&d 2e modules that start with a TPK. I don't think it's too railroad-y, unless you are running a completely sandbox game (which it doesn't sound like you are).
as part of the plot to the story i want to kill them so a devil cult there can steal there souls that the cult then uses souls to fuel there magic and help their particular lord, that they want to free. Does this feel too railroady? am taking to much away from the players?
Without knowing that they're not supposed to win, such a battle could frustrate some players (and thus not be fun for them). Also, some players may surprise you with their ability to escape certain death. Some methods to avoid this:
Tell them outright at the start of the battle that they are not supposed to win
Skip the battle entirely (which has a foregone conclusion) and just go to the result, or
Use option #2, but after a few minutes go to a flashback of the battle... that they get to play out (knowing full well what the results will be).
as part of the plot to the story i want to kill them so a devil cult there can steal there souls that the cult then uses souls to fuel there magic and help their particular lord, that they want to free. Does this feel too railroady? am taking to much away from the players?
Without knowing that they're not supposed to win, such a battle could frustrate some players (and thus not be fun for them). Also, some players may surprise you with their ability to escape certain death. Some methods to avoid this:
Tell them outright at the start of the battle that they are not supposed to win
Skip the battle entirely (which has a foregone conclusion) and just go to the result, or
Use option #2, but after a few minutes go to a flashback of the battle... that they get to play out (knowing full well what the results will be).
I have never thought of a "flashback" play through before! That's an awesome idea! If it's Ok with you, I'd love to use that in my campaign.
As far as the TPK, as a player of a DM who enjoys doing these kinds of things to us(and we enjoy playing in these kinds of story), I can give you my personal feelings on the matter.
So from a players point of view, here are some things I would advise.
A. Dont be afraid to stretch your players if they are excited by character growth, but be on high alert when you do. Think of it like stretching a ruber band to shoot it across the room. You use too much strength, the rubber band snaps, too little, it wont hit the target. Constant feedback on how they are doing, what they like and dont like will help you find that perfect stretch as you go, but keep your eyes on the players and also look for cues they are getting frusterated.
B. If you take something away from the players, have a good reason and STATE that good reason. It's also a good idea to give something in return if what you take away is something major. So you take away levels, or souls, give them a curse that can occasionally be used to their advantage, or have them flicker into ghost form, only to realise they can walk through walls sometimes! The excitment of a new ability can help dampen the effects of loosing something you valued.
C. Don't take too may detours. If us players REALLY want something and are also frusterated by having something taken away that we want back, taking too long to get there will only serve to upset. That doesn't mean detours are a bad thing, but just a tool to be used lightly. Show the status of where they are at with their goal constantly and dont keep them at a stand still
and finally F. as far as the fight scene, forshadowing is very important here I think. Make sure they know what happens if they fail, and if you want to make it an unwinnable situation, make it MASSIVELY so, so they wont feel jipped out of a win they could have gotten. Situations I would be upset would be if I knew I could have won, or if I had won and it was taken out of our hands suddenly. Depending on your players, you have a variety of options to take, but usually if you make the situation clear, that they are going to loose, that they are going to have their souls taken, that they have an option to get it back, it helps.
Have you thought about a gladiator type situation? Where they have the option to fight in an arena in impossible odds, and the soul thing happens but they have a chance to live, or a permanent death with no choice. Making them feel like they are choosing their path could help.
It gives them a solid plot-point that they have to complete, so I would say it is more incentive than railroady. They may have some scenarios they need to attend, but they have a reasoning, not a ticket. My one critique is that I would give them some sort of timeline even so that they somewhat stay on task. For example, maybe their maximum hit point pool depletes by one (similar to necrotism) for every set amount of time they go without their souls; works sort of like degradation, and keeps the incentive going.
Is there some reason they can still walk and live? or why their souls are so important? Take these points into consideration when moving forward, I would say.
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"For every moment of truth, there's confusion in life."
I've played several games where we were taken through a total party kill (or wish we were). In lower levels we ended up as prisoners on a ship. At a higher level one it was a dream encounter, but we did not know that until afterwards... a dream of what was to come... and then we had to fight it all through again and try to change the outcome. It was tough. For the whole soul-stealing... souls on another plane aspect of it... sure, go to a cut-scene right in the middle of a fight. Have them become aware of themselves in some hell. Trying to then collect all the pieces and then get it back to the bodies would be interesting. And then you can either have a party of premade characters that come across the bodies, or start a new campaign where it is one of the story arcs and you tie it all together. Lots more ways you could do it... have fun with it... just be cognizant of what emotions and affects you are putting your players through and how you want them to react to it. And be realistic on how you expect them to react to it.
I have never thought of a "flashback" play through before! That's an awesome idea!
Thanks: glad you liked it! It also allows you to enlist your players aid in troubleshooting inconsistencies. Example:
"Well, I didn't anticipate the whole party plane-shifting away. So how did you all die?" or
"Sure, Barry: you could run away and survive... but then your PC won't be in the next adventure. Are you ok with that?"
The Flashback trick can be used for other purposes too. One adventure I ran at a convention would involve many hours of tedious roleplay before any action - so I instead started the session with the first combat (in medias res) to get the players jazzed. They didn't yet know why they were in combat, but they were having fun. I then Flashed back to the beginning roleplay stuff after a couple rounds and played through all of that (occasionally going back to the combat for a round or two when things got slow).
so i am running a 5e game and the players are 10th about to be 11th. They are currently on Acheron chasing down an artifact sword. So as part of the plot to the story i want to kill them so a devil cult there can steal there souls that the cult then uses souls to fuel there magic and help their particular lord, that they want to free. Does this feel too railroady? am taking to much away from the players? The idea was once there they find the artifact, but now they have to go about repairing their souls. their souls fracture into different parts, and before they can leave that plan of hell that there bodies get pulled to their souls must be made whole again.
thanks for any feed back.
Sincerely,
Daylife
just one thing I'm trying to understand before answering on your course of action: if someone kills them and steals their souls, how are they even coming back? are they going to resurrect themselves?
I think players could feel vastly different about this depending on their individual feelings and personalities. New players especially might feel frustrated being put into a fight they can't win, and being unaware that it's supposed to be unwinnable. Personally, I wouldn't like the DM taking control of my character for a cutscene in which my character is killed. But other players may certainly prefer it to feeling forced into a no-win scenario. Do you think you could talk about the concept with them in a theoretical way, without spoiling the plot? If you can gauge their feelings beforehand, then you'll have your answer.
Even if you just talk with them about it in a hypothetical way and share YOUR feelings about it, it might help smooth the situation for them when it actually happens.
thanks, i like the cut scene idea. maybe it starts as what looks like a winnable fight, but more monsters keep piling in. then go to a cut scene. the idea was that they awaken in a cult of Levistus's temple on the 5th plane of hell with there souls fractured and now they have to make some quests to repair there souls.
I would go with some diablo (pc game) trick. Let them win, find some crystal that will be pure evil. Let them destroy it save the world end then this cristal could steal their souls
Personally, I would just go for it. There are plenty of old Ravenloft ad&d 2e modules that start with a TPK. I don't think it's too railroad-y, unless you are running a completely sandbox game (which it doesn't sound like you are).
It gives them a solid plot-point that they have to complete, so I would say it is more incentive than railroady. They may have some scenarios they need to attend, but they have a reasoning, not a ticket. My one critique is that I would give them some sort of timeline even so that they somewhat stay on task. For example, maybe their maximum hit point pool depletes by one (similar to necrotism) for every set amount of time they go without their souls; works sort of like degradation, and keeps the incentive going.
Is there some reason they can still walk and live? or why their souls are so important? Take these points into consideration when moving forward, I would say.
I've played several games where we were taken through a total party kill (or wish we were). In lower levels we ended up as prisoners on a ship. At a higher level one it was a dream encounter, but we did not know that until afterwards... a dream of what was to come... and then we had to fight it all through again and try to change the outcome. It was tough. For the whole soul-stealing... souls on another plane aspect of it... sure, go to a cut-scene right in the middle of a fight. Have them become aware of themselves in some hell. Trying to then collect all the pieces and then get it back to the bodies would be interesting. And then you can either have a party of premade characters that come across the bodies, or start a new campaign where it is one of the story arcs and you tie it all together. Lots more ways you could do it... have fun with it... just be cognizant of what emotions and affects you are putting your players through and how you want them to react to it. And be realistic on how you expect them to react to it.