I was wondering if anyone had a good approach at scaling up monsters? Some of the more interesting humanoid type creatures are very low CR, which takes them out of the running for a good group challenge unless you send essentially an army against them. For example, upscaling harpies, as was done in the Whitestone arc of Critical Role.
My personal opinion is that 5th Edition has done a good job of widening the level range that a creature is a credible threat to PCs. If you scale up goblins to level 12, then where is the sense of achievement, of progress, that D&D should be about.
I stopped playing Everquest 2 when at level 80ish, I went to a new area, and I was given a quest to kill 10 snakes. Snakes! Sure, they were level 80 snakes, but that killed the last bit of magic for me. That was over three years ago and I don't miss it.
If you put a soft cap of 20 AC on players, then even a goblin can hit 20% of the time. True, they are never going to seriously threaten a high level character, but they can delay and harass; time is sometimes as valuable a resource as hit points and spell slots. More importantly, sword fodder humanoids can make a character feel [censored] awesome!
Diablo 3 understands...the function of most of the monsters on that is to die. In large numbers. The Neverwinter MMO has that same feel.
I believe the most powerful word in the English language is "relative."
I'd just increase the hit dice, attack bonus, and damage output to be around the CR you're aiming for. You could get more thorough with it, but I would just roll with that.
I have with 5e, scaling a monster or monsters can be as simple as modifying their HP. I use a homebrew "minion" rule where I can use a mob of a certain type of monster with a shared hp pool. Reducing the hp by a set amount reduces the number of monsters in the mob.
For upscaling simple fluffing up their HP has been effective without making the monster overpowering. With the numbers of bonuses in 5e being on a smaller scale than previous editions this usually works just fine.
the best I've ever seen is a post called 'Tuckers Kobolds', basically he changed a load of stats and allowed them to level up a bit, but most importantly: he gave them split-fire abilities after level 5, so they could move, shoot, and move back to cover, which to me was the real beauty of it, he built a dungeon with fake walls and numerous traps in every corridor, murder holes and sniper hides, playing to the fluff of kobolds as masters of traps and ambushes.
Heres a link, the bit at the bottom explains the levelling etc and the first bit is just the hilarious story of how it unfolded, honestly, it had me in stitches https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tucker's_Kobolds
I keep a handful of lowbie monsters intermixed with a tough one or two. Makes the party happy they can whole-sale slaughter some, and makes them take a woah, where'd this guy come from approach, when the biggie shows up. If players can have a meat shield champion, why can't my weak gobbies.
I recommend you refer to the DMG. I have pasted the basic statistics for CR 0-1 just to give you an idea of what it looks like. If you have a hardcopy of the DMG then you can find it on page 274.
So using these rules you could scale up a goblin from CR 1/4 to 1 by doubling its hit points and adding an attack per round. Of course, it can get trickier then that but give the rules a read through and try it out. Compare the Goblin to the Goblin Boss to help you get an idea of how it works. Scaling up monsters is part art, part science and part whimsy.
I'd just increase the hit dice, attack bonus, and damage output to be around the CR you're aiming for. You could get more thorough with it, but I would just roll with that.
If you are trying to scale up a spell caster, you can just give it more levels in its class and more spells. You can also swap weapons and give them magic items.
Increase their HP and the damage they deal with their attacks a lot. You can also give them legendary abilities, any homebrewed ideas you come up with, levels in a class, etc.
Increase their HP and the damage they deal with their attacks a lot. You can also give them legendary abilities, any homebrewed ideas you come up with, levels in a class, etc.
Seems the monsters in the manual, or at least the beasts come nowhere near the hit point listed here. Seems all the beasts I checked at CR 1 have Avg hit points in the mid 20s and NONE come anywhere close to 71 even at Max most are in the 40s.
If you think your players are ready for it, I would recommend giving humanoid monsters class levels. If your adventurers get feats, why not your hobgoblins, gnolls or drow? Optimize them the same way you would optimize a party by combining tankier monster "pets" or mounted humanoids with ranged fighters wielding poisoned arrows and a few healers or control-focused spellcasters.
Seems the monsters in the manual, or at least the beasts come nowhere near the hit point listed here. Seems all the beasts I checked at CR 1 have Avg hit points in the mid 20s and NONE come anywhere close to 71 even at Max most are in the 40s.
You have to read the section in the DMG fully to really understand how it works and then it only sometimes makes sense.
Lets use the goblin boss as an example.
A goblin boss has a 17 AC with 21 hp. Looking at the defensive column for hit points you will see that 21 hp is CR 1/8 with a recommended AC of 13. A goblin boss has a 17 AC so (according to the DMG) you raise the CR by 1 for every 2 points difference. That brings the defensive CR to 1/2.
Now look at the offensive column under damage per round. A goblin boss makes two attacks with its scimitar for 10 damage per round or CR 1. Next look at the attack bonus of +4. Since it is only one higher than +3 the offensive CR stays at 1.
Finally, you average the defensive CR of 1/2 versus the offensive CR of 1. The DMG suggests you round up and this is reasonable considering a goblin boss has a few special abilities that help bump it towards a CR of 1.
And that is essentially how it works. As a monster gets into the higher challenge ratings this system starts to break down and becomes more an art form. Traditionally, I think WOTC has erred on the side of weaker monsters after about CR 10. I think most (but not all) monsters in offical WOTC content could be dropped a challenge rating or two after that point.
So simple things like equip them with different gear or even level them using classes to distinguish them. It can help in the roleplay department too because their humanoid enemies so they might have to speak.
monsters are trickier because you can’t really justify giving a wolf a sword or class levels so I would just use more hit dice and asi to it. Maybe add a bit of ac or extra attacks if you can justify it in your roleplay of the fight.
It can be annoying and frustrating for players to face ordinary-looking whatevers only to discover they are ordinary whatevers with X10 HP. Try to find some logic behind the upgrade. If they're goblins, for example, you can prepare the way be spreading a rumor that elements of the "Bitter Rock clan" of goblins have been taken in by their cousins, The BlackFang Hobgoblins, who have trained them to be an elite force of small soldiers ideal for sending into mines and tunnels and the like and for overwhelming larger opponents by teaming up on them three- or four-to-one. Then it makes sense for them to be tougher, smarter, braver, and better equipped--and a lot more deadly than your average band of goblins who run at the first opportunity. If they look different from the usual goblin, that's enough of a clue that these are something unusual, so if your players wade into them arrogantly, they have only themselves to blame when they are overwhelmed by vicious squads of devious scrappers with three attacks per turn. You really don't need to give them loads more HP; just level them up as if they were fighters- two or three more HD, multi-attacks, proficiency/attack bonuses, better armor, higher intelligence and morale. Another thing you can do is add a magic user or two to the cast of NPCs. Maybe there's goblin shaman who can cast 3rd-level cleric spells; maybe a 5th-level human wizard is working for them as a mercenary, or maybe they are the mercenaries working for the wizard. Finally, it's always useful if one or two of them have some poison on their arrows or on their blades. You can make a really good encounter for moderately higher level PCs doing this kind of thing, but I think the trick is to have it all make some sort of sense.
Another fun thing to do---this just occurred to me--is that you could have your upgraded monsters have unusual goals. Maybe they want to capture one or more of you PCs and hold them for ransom (or some other reason). This changes the nature of the encounter enough to make things interesting. Maybe they attempt to restrain and incapacitate rather than kill, and when successful, they haul off the PC and force the remaining party members to try a rescue. Lot's of fun RP there with ordinary or slightly upgraded lower level monsters.
For me, my players have come from one story into a new one at level 5-6 and I've had to upscale the enemies by doubling their health, keeping their AC the same, but giving them an extra (or multi) attack. This seems to do the trick
My personal opinion is that 5th Edition has done a good job of widening the level range that a creature is a credible threat to PCs. If you scale up goblins to level 12, then where is the sense of achievement, of progress, that D&D should be about.
I stopped playing Everquest 2 when at level 80ish, I went to a new area, and I was given a quest to kill 10 snakes. Snakes! Sure, they were level 80 snakes, but that killed the last bit of magic for me. That was over three years ago and I don't miss it.
If you put a soft cap of 20 AC on players, then even a goblin can hit 20% of the time. True, they are never going to seriously threaten a high level character, but they can delay and harass; time is sometimes as valuable a resource as hit points and spell slots. More importantly, sword fodder humanoids can make a character feel [censored] awesome!
Diablo 3 understands...the function of most of the monsters on that is to die. In large numbers. The Neverwinter MMO has that same feel.
I believe the most powerful word in the English language is "relative."
I get what you're saying about scaping, it takes away the feeling of getting stronger.. Especially against snakes or some kind of creature that should have a level cap.
But sentient races, like humans, orcs, gnoll, and even goblins and kobolds, etc.. They are all races that should have enough intelligence to be able to gain experience from raids and fights, training, etc therefore you should still encounter ones that are still formidable fighters even when the party are at level 12. The goblins health may not be 100hp or higher but they could potentially have better gear (for higher AC and damage), new skills and higher stats from being veterans.. Mixed in with the basic goblins.
I am very late to this Topic but I would like to add something. 5e monster lists includes things like Veterans, Knights, Assassins, and Gladiators. It makes a specific note to tell you that these monsters can be any race. So just use their stat blocks and make the race what you want. Maybe it’s a Goblin Assassin or a Orc Veteran. 5e honestly let’s you be as creative as you want and it gives you most of the tools to do so.
Size: Increase size by 1 hit dice by 1 level and damage by 1 die of which ever type. Recalculate cr
Special combat strategies and equipment: Long range, cover, obscurement or spell effects. You may need to give them feats or items to make these work well like sharp shooter. How these effect cr vary but you can get an idea by looking at the creating a monster section of the dmg
Swarm : Double damage, double hit point, increase size by 1, swarm trait and immunity to conditions. There are more detailed guides online but this one seems decent
Player classes: Use a stream lined class with a couple of features, don't worry about levels but pick abilities that give the feel. You can also modify the predone stat blocks like the evoker to add other monster traits.
pets and mounts: A horse makes a big difference to a combat encounter
I am very late to this Topic but I would like to add something. 5e monster lists includes things like Veterans, Knights, Assassins, and Gladiators. It makes a specific note to tell you that these monsters can be any race. So just use their stat blocks and make the race what you want. Maybe it’s a Goblin Assassin or a Orc Veteran. 5e honestly let’s you be as creative as you want and it gives you most of the tools to do so.
Fine and dandy for humanoids. But what about if I want to make a hound archon veteran, ice devil knight, succubus assassin, or adult white dragon gladiator? I'm trying to expand monsters' repertoires much like we can do in 3.5E or PRPG. How do I merge stat blocks and is there a fast and dirty rule for doing so (and for stat blocks) versus the long drawn out mathematics of the DMG?
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I was wondering if anyone had a good approach at scaling up monsters? Some of the more interesting humanoid type creatures are very low CR, which takes them out of the running for a good group challenge unless you send essentially an army against them. For example, upscaling harpies, as was done in the Whitestone arc of Critical Role.
My personal opinion is that 5th Edition has done a good job of widening the level range that a creature is a credible threat to PCs.
If you scale up goblins to level 12, then where is the sense of achievement, of progress, that D&D should be about.
I stopped playing Everquest 2 when at level 80ish, I went to a new area, and I was given a quest to kill 10 snakes. Snakes!
Sure, they were level 80 snakes, but that killed the last bit of magic for me. That was over three years ago and I don't miss it.
If you put a soft cap of 20 AC on players, then even a goblin can hit 20% of the time. True, they are never going to seriously threaten a high level character, but they can delay and harass; time is sometimes as valuable a resource as hit points and spell slots. More importantly, sword fodder humanoids can make a character feel [censored] awesome!
Diablo 3 understands...the function of most of the monsters on that is to die. In large numbers.
The Neverwinter MMO has that same feel.
I believe the most powerful word in the English language is "relative."
Roleplaying since Runequest.
I'd just increase the hit dice, attack bonus, and damage output to be around the CR you're aiming for. You could get more thorough with it, but I would just roll with that.
I have with 5e, scaling a monster or monsters can be as simple as modifying their HP. I use a homebrew "minion" rule where I can use a mob of a certain type of monster with a shared hp pool. Reducing the hp by a set amount reduces the number of monsters in the mob.
For upscaling simple fluffing up their HP has been effective without making the monster overpowering. With the numbers of bonuses in 5e being on a smaller scale than previous editions this usually works just fine.
the best I've ever seen is a post called 'Tuckers Kobolds', basically he changed a load of stats and allowed them to level up a bit, but most importantly: he gave them split-fire abilities after level 5, so they could move, shoot, and move back to cover, which to me was the real beauty of it, he built a dungeon with fake walls and numerous traps in every corridor, murder holes and sniper hides, playing to the fluff of kobolds as masters of traps and ambushes.
Heres a link, the bit at the bottom explains the levelling etc and the first bit is just the hilarious story of how it unfolded, honestly, it had me in stitches
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tucker's_Kobolds
I keep a handful of lowbie monsters intermixed with a tough one or two. Makes the party happy they can whole-sale slaughter some, and makes them take a woah, where'd this guy come from approach, when the biggie shows up. If players can have a meat shield champion, why can't my weak gobbies.
I recommend you refer to the DMG. I have pasted the basic statistics for CR 0-1 just to give you an idea of what it looks like. If you have a hardcopy of the DMG then you can find it on page 274.
So using these rules you could scale up a goblin from CR 1/4 to 1 by doubling its hit points and adding an attack per round. Of course, it can get trickier then that but give the rules a read through and try it out. Compare the Goblin to the Goblin Boss to help you get an idea of how it works. Scaling up monsters is part art, part science and part whimsy.
Monster Statistics per Challenge Rating
Bonus
Round
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
If you are trying to scale up a spell caster, you can just give it more levels in its class and more spells. You can also swap weapons and give them magic items.
I stole my pfp from this person: https://mobile.twitter.com/xelart1/status/1177312449575432193
Increase their HP and the damage they deal with their attacks a lot. You can also give them legendary abilities, any homebrewed ideas you come up with, levels in a class, etc.
Increase their HP and the damage they deal with their attacks a lot. You can also give them legendary abilities, any homebrewed ideas you come up with, levels in a class, etc.
Seems the monsters in the manual, or at least the beasts come nowhere near the hit point listed here. Seems all the beasts I checked at CR 1 have Avg hit points in the mid 20s and NONE come anywhere close to 71 even at Max most are in the 40s.
If you think your players are ready for it, I would recommend giving humanoid monsters class levels. If your adventurers get feats, why not your hobgoblins, gnolls or drow? Optimize them the same way you would optimize a party by combining tankier monster "pets" or mounted humanoids with ranged fighters wielding poisoned arrows and a few healers or control-focused spellcasters.
You have to read the section in the DMG fully to really understand how it works and then it only sometimes makes sense.
Lets use the goblin boss as an example.
A goblin boss has a 17 AC with 21 hp. Looking at the defensive column for hit points you will see that 21 hp is CR 1/8 with a recommended AC of 13. A goblin boss has a 17 AC so (according to the DMG) you raise the CR by 1 for every 2 points difference. That brings the defensive CR to 1/2.
Now look at the offensive column under damage per round. A goblin boss makes two attacks with its scimitar for 10 damage per round or CR 1. Next look at the attack bonus of +4. Since it is only one higher than +3 the offensive CR stays at 1.
Finally, you average the defensive CR of 1/2 versus the offensive CR of 1. The DMG suggests you round up and this is reasonable considering a goblin boss has a few special abilities that help bump it towards a CR of 1.
And that is essentially how it works. As a monster gets into the higher challenge ratings this system starts to break down and becomes more an art form. Traditionally, I think WOTC has erred on the side of weaker monsters after about CR 10. I think most (but not all) monsters in offical WOTC content could be dropped a challenge rating or two after that point.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
So simple things like equip them with different gear or even level them using classes to distinguish them. It can help in the roleplay department too because their humanoid enemies so they might have to speak.
monsters are trickier because you can’t really justify giving a wolf a sword or class levels so I would just use more hit dice and asi to it. Maybe add a bit of ac or extra attacks if you can justify it in your roleplay of the fight.
It can be annoying and frustrating for players to face ordinary-looking whatevers only to discover they are ordinary whatevers with X10 HP. Try to find some logic behind the upgrade. If they're goblins, for example, you can prepare the way be spreading a rumor that elements of the "Bitter Rock clan" of goblins have been taken in by their cousins, The BlackFang Hobgoblins, who have trained them to be an elite force of small soldiers ideal for sending into mines and tunnels and the like and for overwhelming larger opponents by teaming up on them three- or four-to-one. Then it makes sense for them to be tougher, smarter, braver, and better equipped--and a lot more deadly than your average band of goblins who run at the first opportunity. If they look different from the usual goblin, that's enough of a clue that these are something unusual, so if your players wade into them arrogantly, they have only themselves to blame when they are overwhelmed by vicious squads of devious scrappers with three attacks per turn. You really don't need to give them loads more HP; just level them up as if they were fighters- two or three more HD, multi-attacks, proficiency/attack bonuses, better armor, higher intelligence and morale. Another thing you can do is add a magic user or two to the cast of NPCs. Maybe there's goblin shaman who can cast 3rd-level cleric spells; maybe a 5th-level human wizard is working for them as a mercenary, or maybe they are the mercenaries working for the wizard. Finally, it's always useful if one or two of them have some poison on their arrows or on their blades. You can make a really good encounter for moderately higher level PCs doing this kind of thing, but I think the trick is to have it all make some sort of sense.
Another fun thing to do---this just occurred to me--is that you could have your upgraded monsters have unusual goals. Maybe they want to capture one or more of you PCs and hold them for ransom (or some other reason). This changes the nature of the encounter enough to make things interesting. Maybe they attempt to restrain and incapacitate rather than kill, and when successful, they haul off the PC and force the remaining party members to try a rescue. Lot's of fun RP there with ordinary or slightly upgraded lower level monsters.
Good luck!
Recently returned to D&D after 20+ years.
Unapologetic.
For me, my players have come from one story into a new one at level 5-6 and I've had to upscale the enemies by doubling their health, keeping their AC the same, but giving them an extra (or multi) attack. This seems to do the trick
I get what you're saying about scaping, it takes away the feeling of getting stronger.. Especially against snakes or some kind of creature that should have a level cap.
But sentient races, like humans, orcs, gnoll, and even goblins and kobolds, etc.. They are all races that should have enough intelligence to be able to gain experience from raids and fights, training, etc therefore you should still encounter ones that are still formidable fighters even when the party are at level 12. The goblins health may not be 100hp or higher but they could potentially have better gear (for higher AC and damage), new skills and higher stats from being veterans.. Mixed in with the basic goblins.
I am very late to this Topic but I would like to add something. 5e monster lists includes things like Veterans, Knights, Assassins, and Gladiators. It makes a specific note to tell you that these monsters can be any race. So just use their stat blocks and make the race what you want. Maybe it’s a Goblin Assassin or a Orc Veteran. 5e honestly let’s you be as creative as you want and it gives you most of the tools to do so.
There are lots of ways
Fine and dandy for humanoids. But what about if I want to make a hound archon veteran, ice devil knight, succubus assassin, or adult white dragon gladiator? I'm trying to expand monsters' repertoires much like we can do in 3.5E or PRPG. How do I merge stat blocks and is there a fast and dirty rule for doing so (and for stat blocks) versus the long drawn out mathematics of the DMG?