The party is ambushed by 8 goblins. During combat, the fighter kills a goblin with its longsword.
The Player asks the DM "How many hit points do the goblins have?"
Question:
In your games how do you answer that question? Do you share that information at the start of combat is it is a secret that the players need to count damage to get an idea of how many hit points a creature has or do not share not at all?
For me I don't share that information, no reason why, just never thought about it much until one thread here subject matter discussed the Knock-Out rule. So in my continuation of dumb questions, I want to hear people's opinions on this subject
Never tell them. And if they start figuring it out, I start giving them variable hit points. If they know, they’ll start meta gaming which resources they use.
I usually don't disclose monsters hit points but i instead use health measurements within their perspectives ex full, three-quarter, half, quarter, nearly dead etc
I'm the same, more or less, as Mog_Dracov. I don't have set descriptors, but I try to just imply to my players a general idea of how injured an enemy looks, but in-character nobody uses the term "hit points" and my players never ask for specific numbers.
I don't tell them and use descriptors similar to Mog_Dracov's. My most frequent table will run from a fight if they think they're at a stalemate or are underpowered vs. their adversaries. So sometimes I'll coax the language to give them the impression that the baddie is hanging on by a thread etc. I do admit to really liking it when zombies make their "not quite dead yet" saves and stay in the fight though.
That said, I have no qualms about the players figuring out hit point capacities based on damage done and keeping note of that stuff. I first recognized that when a player muttered during a fight with a Devil "we've done like 90 points of damage and it's still in the fight?" but I believe this isn't really a meta break. A real combatant especially in melee is going to have a much more hands on and eyes on understanding of the damange they're dishing on to a target, so I don't mind that translating into guestimating the hp. That guesswork will sometimes lead to confusion when they think they've done significant damage but are in fact fighting a more "champion" variant of a given enemy. In those instances, I'll just narrate something like "this one seems far more skilled and capable than other [usually humanoid]s you've fought before."
But even after saying that, really seasoned players, especially those with significant DMing experience are going to to know the averages like it or not, so it's just not something I see the point in hard enforcing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
If you tell the player the hitpoints, they know exactly how much damage they need to do. If its a boss encounter and they alpha strike it and you need to adjust the hit points up so the session doesn't end melodramatically, well now you can't do that.
Keeping players in the dark about creature HP is always a good thing. Having players face creatures with varying hit point ranges tends to keep the players on their toes, and reduces the meta-knowledge of average hit-point damage totals so combat feels a bit more random.
It can also allow DM's to tweak the encounter danger, and add flavor to combat. Nothing like using the lower hp creatures as meat shields with a few high hp creatures beside to take advantage.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I use the triage terms green, orange and red at the table. No-one is allowed to tell their actual HP, players or GM, just that they are unwounded, green (above half HP), orange (wounded, around 1/2 to 1/4 HP), or red (will die in one or two hits, probably less than 1/5 HP). It keeps things fast by stopping people doing addition and subtraction at the table.
Whilst I voted 'no', I do appreciate how aggrevating it can be to not be able to work with the numbers. It annoyed me to no end in the Baldur's Gate video games, and was one of the many irksome carry-overs of Pillars of Eternity. However, I will try to be a lot more descriptive to give players a good idea of how exhausted or bloodied an enemy is. It is easy to fall into that trap Matt Mercer frequently does with describing enemies as looking "pretty rough" when players want to know the answer right away.
If my players are taking notes, writing down damage figures, that's fine. I'm not going to tell them off for noticeably paying attention, though I would be somewhat miffed if they're only jotting things down in combat during a campaign that involves more than combat. But that's getting into a whole other kettle of fish.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
How does a PC fighter know what a Hit Point is or what it does?
I'm fortunate that my players don't share perfect data with each other or ask for perfect data from me. That said, I do give them a narrative description based on health, and encourage them to change their tactics based on the PCs health.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
How does a PC fighter know what a Hit Point is or what it does?
I'm fortunate that my players don't share perfect data with each other or ask for perfect data from me. That said, I do give them a narrative description based on health, and encourage them to change their tactics based on the PCs health.
Kaaval, I appreciate the feedback. You seem like a good person who gives solid advice that I know can be trusted as something not coming off without consideration or thought.
BUT
You may not be aware but this is the second thread where you've attacked/insulted/slighted my player base, these are my friends and I so I do take those comments personally. You do not know my players any more than I know yours I would never dream that how those in your game would be playing it wrong and that is how I've read your inferences related to my players. So you can criticize me all you want I'm the DM who asks dumb questions in these forums but I would appreciate it if you would leave direct comments about my players out of it.
Thank you.
Now to your question. The fighter does not know what hit points are usually when they do ask it is more in line with "How does creature X look" Like a lot of the examples I do my best to give a 'conditional' health description. I wrote the question as I did just cutting through that descriptive text and just getting to the heart of what is being asked for.
This thread was intended to be a discussion to DMs on "How You Do It" as much as I was looking for advice I also was curious about others' opinions on the subject matter. I like asking questions that get can get a group of people talking about their game from behind their DM screens. There are times I agree with what is said other times not so much but what makes it all the better is the discussion that is had.
How does a PC fighter know what a Hit Point is or what it does?
I'm fortunate that my players don't share perfect data with each other or ask for perfect data from me. That said, I do give them a narrative description based on health, and encourage them to change their tactics based on the PCs health.
HIt points are helpful for someone _playing_ a fighter because the player is ultimately playing a game mechanically mediated abstraction of a fighter. Good, real fighters actually are good at "quantifying" an opponents capacities early on in a fight, and really good ones keep that in mind over the course of a fight. I really doubt your narrational talent makes you the verbal version of a fight scene in Raging Bull or even Rocky (professional fight commentators aren't that good). Because of my guess that that many a good DMs are also not so enamored with their capacities for verisimilitude to be mechanically accurate in all cases (this is why some tables call this aspect of blow by blow DM or player narration "fluff") referencing to some sort of abstraction be it hit points, a color system, or little nudges like "they're actually looking pretty rough" are not actually impoverishing "the game experience" or what have you that you seem to be claiming to be having the privilege to witness.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
How does a PC fighter know what a Hit Point is or what it does?
I'm fortunate that my players don't share perfect data with each other or ask for perfect data from me. That said, I do give them a narrative description based on health, and encourage them to change their tactics based on the PCs health.
Kaaval, I appreciate the feedback. You seem like a good person who gives solid advice that I know can be trusted as something not coming off without consideration or thought.
BUT
You may not be aware but this is the second thread where you've attacked/insulted/slighted my player base, these are my friends and I so I do take those comments personally. You do not know my players any more than I know yours I would never dream that how those in your game would be playing it wrong and that is how I've read your inferences related to my players. So you can criticize me all you want I'm the DM who asks dumb questions in these forums but I would appreciate it if you would leave direct comments about my players out of it.
Thank you.
Now to your question. The fighter does not know what hit points are usually when they do ask it is more in line with "How does creature X look" Like a lot of the examples I do my best to give a 'conditional' health description. I wrote the question as I did just cutting through that descriptive text and just getting to the heart of what is being asked for.
This thread was intended to be a discussion to DMs on "How You Do It" as much as I was looking for advice I also was curious about others' opinions on the subject matter. I like asking questions that get can get a group of people talking about their game from behind their DM screens. There are times I agree with what is said other times not so much but what makes it all the better is the discussion that is had.
Me explaining that I don't have any recent experience having to swerve the question of "How many hit points does...." is not an attack on your player base. It's simply that. I'm sorry to discover that you were offended by the perceived inference.
The purpose of my question is to provoke the idea around how do we describe a hit point from the perspective of someone/something that has no clue what it is or how many they have.
How does a PC fighter know what a Hit Point is or what it does?
I'm fortunate that my players don't share perfect data with each other or ask for perfect data from me. That said, I do give them a narrative description based on health, and encourage them to change their tactics based on the PCs health.
HIt points are helpful for someone _playing_ a fighter because the player is ultimately playing a game mechanically mediated abstraction of a fighter. Good, real fighters actually are good at "quantifying" an opponents capacities early on in a fight, and really good ones keep that in mind over the course of a fight. I really doubt your narrational talent makes you the verbal version of a fight scene in Raging Bull or even Rocky (professional fight commentators aren't that good). Because of my guess that that many a good DMs are also not so enamored with their capacities for verisimilitude to be mechanically accurate in all cases (this is why some tables call this aspect of blow by blow DM or player narration "fluff") referencing to some sort of abstraction be it hit points, a color system, or little nudges like "they're actually looking pretty rough" are not actually impoverishing "the game experience" or what have you that you seem to be claiming to be having the privilege to witness.
Yes, the abstraction of hit points are used to adjudicate how much damage a PC/monster can take prior to succumbing to their wounds. And they are absolutely necessary for the player and the DM to adjudicate the game fairly. Hit Points are also perfect measure of how much more a creature can endure. The player shouldn't have perfect knowledge of their opponent, much like your good fighter will not have perfect knowledge of theirs. The PCs ability to assess their opponent will be full of the same guesses and suppositions that exist in every arena and battlefield. IMHO, the player should have the same incomplete data to work with as a method to pull them into the guessing and supposing that the PC is experiencing. My being fortunate that my player base prefers to put themselves into that space voluntarily is not synonymous with, or claimed byproduct of, any self-enamored narrative ability.
You should be pleased to know that you are among many that doubt much in this world, my narrational talent included.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
The only time I will offer that sort of meta-knowledge is when a PC is lining up to waste a fun or cool resource. I would far rather say "Are you sure you want to use your breath weapon, this guy looks like he has only 2 hitpoints left" than "yeah, you used your cool ability and they died".
I consider this almost an obligation, as it is likely that it is my descriptions not getting the relevant "They're almost dead" across before their turn. Just a quick "are you sure, they might only have 3hp left" Is fine for me in a forgone-concluded fight. Keep your cool abilities my PC friends, you can kill this goblin with a stiff breeze!
Setup:
The party is ambushed by 8 goblins. During combat, the fighter kills a goblin with its longsword.
The Player asks the DM "How many hit points do the goblins have?"
Question:
In your games how do you answer that question? Do you share that information at the start of combat is it is a secret that the players need to count damage to get an idea of how many hit points a creature has or do not share not at all?
For me I don't share that information, no reason why, just never thought about it much until one thread here subject matter discussed the Knock-Out rule. So in my continuation of dumb questions, I want to hear people's opinions on this subject
Never tell them. And if they start figuring it out, I start giving them variable hit points. If they know, they’ll start meta gaming which resources they use.
I usually tell them one of the following:
Exceptions:
Undead should start out looking "Still standing", and when more than 3/4% hurt should only then be declared "Holy Crap, is that thing still moving?"
Oozes should only have "Unhit" until it reaches "Hurt" (Bleeding) and stay there till "Still Standing"
Certain Elementals (Fire, Air) should be described as "Looks Unhit" until it reaches "Badly hurt" because the staggering becomes noticeable.
Also note, I let the player know when the creature appears unfazed by the attack (Immune), or laughed it off (Resistant).
I usually don't disclose monsters hit points but i instead use health measurements within their perspectives ex full, three-quarter, half, quarter, nearly dead etc
I've borrowed Bloodied (less than half hp) from 4e.
I'm the same, more or less, as Mog_Dracov. I don't have set descriptors, but I try to just imply to my players a general idea of how injured an enemy looks, but in-character nobody uses the term "hit points" and my players never ask for specific numbers.
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I don't tell them and use descriptors similar to Mog_Dracov's. My most frequent table will run from a fight if they think they're at a stalemate or are underpowered vs. their adversaries. So sometimes I'll coax the language to give them the impression that the baddie is hanging on by a thread etc. I do admit to really liking it when zombies make their "not quite dead yet" saves and stay in the fight though.
That said, I have no qualms about the players figuring out hit point capacities based on damage done and keeping note of that stuff. I first recognized that when a player muttered during a fight with a Devil "we've done like 90 points of damage and it's still in the fight?" but I believe this isn't really a meta break. A real combatant especially in melee is going to have a much more hands on and eyes on understanding of the damange they're dishing on to a target, so I don't mind that translating into guestimating the hp. That guesswork will sometimes lead to confusion when they think they've done significant damage but are in fact fighting a more "champion" variant of a given enemy. In those instances, I'll just narrate something like "this one seems far more skilled and capable than other [usually humanoid]s you've fought before."
But even after saying that, really seasoned players, especially those with significant DMing experience are going to to know the averages like it or not, so it's just not something I see the point in hard enforcing.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
If you tell the player the hitpoints, they know exactly how much damage they need to do. If its a boss encounter and they alpha strike it and you need to adjust the hit points up so the session doesn't end melodramatically, well now you can't do that.
Keeping players in the dark about creature HP is always a good thing. Having players face creatures with varying hit point ranges tends to keep the players on their toes, and reduces the meta-knowledge of average hit-point damage totals so combat feels a bit more random.
It can also allow DM's to tweak the encounter danger, and add flavor to combat. Nothing like using the lower hp creatures as meat shields with a few high hp creatures beside to take advantage.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I use the triage terms green, orange and red at the table. No-one is allowed to tell their actual HP, players or GM, just that they are unwounded, green (above half HP), orange (wounded, around 1/2 to 1/4 HP), or red (will die in one or two hits, probably less than 1/5 HP). It keeps things fast by stopping people doing addition and subtraction at the table.
Whilst I voted 'no', I do appreciate how aggrevating it can be to not be able to work with the numbers. It annoyed me to no end in the Baldur's Gate video games, and was one of the many irksome carry-overs of Pillars of Eternity. However, I will try to be a lot more descriptive to give players a good idea of how exhausted or bloodied an enemy is. It is easy to fall into that trap Matt Mercer frequently does with describing enemies as looking "pretty rough" when players want to know the answer right away.
If my players are taking notes, writing down damage figures, that's fine. I'm not going to tell them off for noticeably paying attention, though I would be somewhat miffed if they're only jotting things down in combat during a campaign that involves more than combat. But that's getting into a whole other kettle of fish.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
- The Assemblage of Houses, World of Warcraft
How does a PC fighter know what a Hit Point is or what it does?
I'm fortunate that my players don't share perfect data with each other or ask for perfect data from me. That said, I do give them a narrative description based on health, and encourage them to change their tactics based on the PCs health.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Kaaval, I appreciate the feedback. You seem like a good person who gives solid advice that I know can be trusted as something not coming off without consideration or thought.
BUT
You may not be aware but this is the second thread where you've attacked/insulted/slighted my player base, these are my friends and I so I do take those comments personally. You do not know my players any more than I know yours I would never dream that how those in your game would be playing it wrong and that is how I've read your inferences related to my players. So you can criticize me all you want I'm the DM who asks dumb questions in these forums but I would appreciate it if you would leave direct comments about my players out of it.
Thank you.
Now to your question. The fighter does not know what hit points are usually when they do ask it is more in line with "How does creature X look" Like a lot of the examples I do my best to give a 'conditional' health description. I wrote the question as I did just cutting through that descriptive text and just getting to the heart of what is being asked for.
This thread was intended to be a discussion to DMs on "How You Do It" as much as I was looking for advice I also was curious about others' opinions on the subject matter. I like asking questions that get can get a group of people talking about their game from behind their DM screens. There are times I agree with what is said other times not so much but what makes it all the better is the discussion that is had.
HIt points are helpful for someone _playing_ a fighter because the player is ultimately playing a game mechanically mediated abstraction of a fighter. Good, real fighters actually are good at "quantifying" an opponents capacities early on in a fight, and really good ones keep that in mind over the course of a fight. I really doubt your narrational talent makes you the verbal version of a fight scene in Raging Bull or even Rocky (professional fight commentators aren't that good). Because of my guess that that many a good DMs are also not so enamored with their capacities for verisimilitude to be mechanically accurate in all cases (this is why some tables call this aspect of blow by blow DM or player narration "fluff") referencing to some sort of abstraction be it hit points, a color system, or little nudges like "they're actually looking pretty rough" are not actually impoverishing "the game experience" or what have you that you seem to be claiming to be having the privilege to witness.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Me explaining that I don't have any recent experience having to swerve the question of "How many hit points does...." is not an attack on your player base. It's simply that. I'm sorry to discover that you were offended by the perceived inference.
The purpose of my question is to provoke the idea around how do we describe a hit point from the perspective of someone/something that has no clue what it is or how many they have.
Yes, the abstraction of hit points are used to adjudicate how much damage a PC/monster can take prior to succumbing to their wounds. And they are absolutely necessary for the player and the DM to adjudicate the game fairly. Hit Points are also perfect measure of how much more a creature can endure. The player shouldn't have perfect knowledge of their opponent, much like your good fighter will not have perfect knowledge of theirs. The PCs ability to assess their opponent will be full of the same guesses and suppositions that exist in every arena and battlefield. IMHO, the player should have the same incomplete data to work with as a method to pull them into the guessing and supposing that the PC is experiencing. My being fortunate that my player base prefers to put themselves into that space voluntarily is not synonymous with, or claimed byproduct of, any self-enamored narrative ability.
You should be pleased to know that you are among many that doubt much in this world, my narrational talent included.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
The only time I will offer that sort of meta-knowledge is when a PC is lining up to waste a fun or cool resource. I would far rather say "Are you sure you want to use your breath weapon, this guy looks like he has only 2 hitpoints left" than "yeah, you used your cool ability and they died".
I consider this almost an obligation, as it is likely that it is my descriptions not getting the relevant "They're almost dead" across before their turn. Just a quick "are you sure, they might only have 3hp left" Is fine for me in a forgone-concluded fight. Keep your cool abilities my PC friends, you can kill this goblin with a stiff breeze!
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