Hello, new DM here! I'm running my first game out of the Tales from the Yawning portal, and I'm a little worried that my plans for the entrance to the sunless citadel is a little too linear. I have an ambush in mind in the first room (the circular tower room).
They took longer to get to the citadel than I had planned for, and they had a random encounter with goblins, after I rolled a one on a D6 (one was the only number I assigned for the random encounter and I rolled in front of them, lol). They captured a goblin for questions, but eventually released it before taking one last long rest before heading into the citadel, which is where we ended the session. They told the goblin to head to town, but seeing how goblins aren't totally stupid and how the goblin felt / owed no allegiance to the party, it turned around in the woods and returned to the citadel. Hence the plan to setup an ambush.
They had asked the goblin for alternate routes into the citadel though, and the only thing I could think of was the tunnel to the Underdark, so I mentioned it, as I was pretty sure they wouldn't try to find a way into the Underdark at level one! I'm worried though that if I ambush them after they successfully interrogated someone asking for alternative routes, they'll feel a bit railroaded. Am I wrong to be worried about this?
I'd like to give them some opportunity that I can plan ahead for to gain them some type of upper hand in the encounter. It's not clear to me though what type of options they might have. I'm thinking about having the goblin they released be killed as an example to other goblins and hung in front of the door of the citadel as a warning to the party. While I think this is a great way to warn them about the ambush, it doesn't really give them an upper hand, does it? Any thoughts? I'd love to hear what people think.
The thing about defensive fortifications is that they are designed to be defensive in nature. There might be 10 routes to get TO the citadel, but it is not unlikely that the citadel itself would be designed to funnel you into an area that is literally designed to ambush you, if you give the wrong password or piss off the guard or whatever. The fact that there is a secret escape tunnel that leads into the under-dark is enough. The danger of railroading comes when they say "we want to find a way in through the under-dark" and you say "there are no ways into the under-dark," rather than when the characters say "we want to go through the unguarded kitchen side of the citadel, rather than through the heavily guarded front door. I mean, that's great and all... roll perception. You don't see an unguarded side door that literally defeats the purpose of having a fortification in the first place.... (or maybe they do? maybe the tower is kindof crumbling and they spot a crack which could indicate a weak spot)
Also, for the record, there is nothing wrong with NOT ambushing the players, and allowing them to see their friend whom they let go standing at the front door of the citidel with five big heavily armed goblins making excited hand gestures and calling them names. I'd say giving your enemies a surprise round vs level 1 fighters is pretty hard-mode. believable, understandable even, but hard mode.
Great points! I definitely don't want to put them through hard mode, as you say (3 out of 4 are also new players), but I don't really want to give up on the believability either for the sake of easier game play (goblin was definitely not friendly when it left). Really though, I want there to be the "hard mode", so they're motivated to find the "smart mode". I just need to make it clear that there are alternatives without making those alternatives too specific, where they think: "oh he planned for us to do that".
I love the idea of the citadel having a few crumbling walls. I could maybe place one or two holes in the tower 15-20 ft off the ground that they could climb to, allowing them to attack and draw them out or cast a spell. The light from inside the tower (goblin torches?) would make it pretty easy for the players to see too, but it's still open ended in regards to what they could do.
If you have mostly new players, the more nebulous and improvisational parts of the game can be overwhelming. If you want to give them the freedom to assail the citadel how ever they want, they may spend more time planning that then executing any sort of plan, or just freeze up not knowing what to do. There's a reason Sunless Citadel is often suggested for new players (and DMs): it's good for introducing the concepts of the game and highlighting the pillars of gaming. Sometimes, less is more, and unless they are begging for another way in, i'd have them desend the gorge and enter the most logical way.
Still, the other suggestions are good, and if your adventurers feel ambitious enough to ACTUALLY go through the underdark, you can plan out a low level cave romp for them aside from the module itself to get them inside. Keep in mind though that this would be a lot of other stuff to throw at your green players (where the entrance is, how to find it, if they can go to town and get a guide, if they can risk random encounters while searching for an entrance alone, how they'd navigate the multiple tunnels without getting g lost, ect.)
They told the goblin to head to town, but seeing how goblins aren't totally stupid and how the goblin felt / owed no allegiance to the party, it turned around in the woods and returned to the citadel. Hence the plan to setup an ambush.
They had asked the goblin for alternate routes into the citadel though, and the only thing I could think of was the tunnel to the Underdark, so I mentioned it, as I was pretty sure they wouldn't try to find a way into the Underdark at level one! I'm worried though that if I ambush them after they successfully interrogated someone asking for alternative routes, they'll feel a bit railroaded. Am I wrong to be worried about this?
I'd like to give them some opportunity that I can plan ahead for to gain them some type of upper hand in the encounter. It's not clear to me though what type of options they might have. I'm thinking about having the goblin they released be killed as an example to other goblins and hung in front of the door of the citadel as a warning to the party. While I think this is a great way to warn them about the ambush, it doesn't really give them an upper hand, does it? Any thoughts? I'd love to hear what people think.
So the group captured a goblin, asked it about the best way to invade it's home, and then let it go, telling it to go to a human town, on its honor, while they leisurely rest up for 8 hours? Rather than worry about giving the players the upper hand I think you need to teach them about consequences.
Seriously, do it now before they encounter more deadly threats down the road.
So yeah, set up an ambush, have the goblin they let go be a part of it "there they are boys! lets get em!!!". If the party needs a hand have the kobolds take advantage, surprising the goblins mid fight, taking some revenge of their own for stealing their mascot. Could be a nice set up for introducing the PC's to kobolds in a less than hostile way. My group had a ton of fun with Meepo in tow for a while.
So the group captured a goblin, asked it about the best way to invade it's home, and then let it go, telling it to go to a human town, on its honor, while they leisurely rest up for 8 hours?
Lol, yep - I was definitely surprised; I thought the experienced player (who has been my DM for a number of years) would've thought it through. You hit the nail on the head regarding why I want to ambush them. I just don't want to TPK my first group, lol. That is a really good idea too for introducing the kobolds.
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Brad, if you see this, don't read it! :-)
Hello, new DM here! I'm running my first game out of the Tales from the Yawning portal, and I'm a little worried that my plans for the entrance to the sunless citadel is a little too linear. I have an ambush in mind in the first room (the circular tower room).
They took longer to get to the citadel than I had planned for, and they had a random encounter with goblins, after I rolled a one on a D6 (one was the only number I assigned for the random encounter and I rolled in front of them, lol). They captured a goblin for questions, but eventually released it before taking one last long rest before heading into the citadel, which is where we ended the session. They told the goblin to head to town, but seeing how goblins aren't totally stupid and how the goblin felt / owed no allegiance to the party, it turned around in the woods and returned to the citadel. Hence the plan to setup an ambush.
They had asked the goblin for alternate routes into the citadel though, and the only thing I could think of was the tunnel to the Underdark, so I mentioned it, as I was pretty sure they wouldn't try to find a way into the Underdark at level one! I'm worried though that if I ambush them after they successfully interrogated someone asking for alternative routes, they'll feel a bit railroaded. Am I wrong to be worried about this?
I'd like to give them some opportunity that I can plan ahead for to gain them some type of upper hand in the encounter. It's not clear to me though what type of options they might have. I'm thinking about having the goblin they released be killed as an example to other goblins and hung in front of the door of the citadel as a warning to the party. While I think this is a great way to warn them about the ambush, it doesn't really give them an upper hand, does it? Any thoughts? I'd love to hear what people think.
The thing about defensive fortifications is that they are designed to be defensive in nature. There might be 10 routes to get TO the citadel, but it is not unlikely that the citadel itself would be designed to funnel you into an area that is literally designed to ambush you, if you give the wrong password or piss off the guard or whatever. The fact that there is a secret escape tunnel that leads into the under-dark is enough. The danger of railroading comes when they say "we want to find a way in through the under-dark" and you say "there are no ways into the under-dark," rather than when the characters say "we want to go through the unguarded kitchen side of the citadel, rather than through the heavily guarded front door. I mean, that's great and all... roll perception. You don't see an unguarded side door that literally defeats the purpose of having a fortification in the first place.... (or maybe they do? maybe the tower is kindof crumbling and they spot a crack which could indicate a weak spot)
Also, for the record, there is nothing wrong with NOT ambushing the players, and allowing them to see their friend whom they let go standing at the front door of the citidel with five big heavily armed goblins making excited hand gestures and calling them names. I'd say giving your enemies a surprise round vs level 1 fighters is pretty hard-mode. believable, understandable even, but hard mode.
Hi Diplomacy,
Great points! I definitely don't want to put them through hard mode, as you say (3 out of 4 are also new players), but I don't really want to give up on the believability either for the sake of easier game play (goblin was definitely not friendly when it left). Really though, I want there to be the "hard mode", so they're motivated to find the "smart mode". I just need to make it clear that there are alternatives without making those alternatives too specific, where they think: "oh he planned for us to do that".
I love the idea of the citadel having a few crumbling walls. I could maybe place one or two holes in the tower 15-20 ft off the ground that they could climb to, allowing them to attack and draw them out or cast a spell. The light from inside the tower (goblin torches?) would make it pretty easy for the players to see too, but it's still open ended in regards to what they could do.
Thanks, I really appreciate the feedback.
If you have mostly new players, the more nebulous and improvisational parts of the game can be overwhelming. If you want to give them the freedom to assail the citadel how ever they want, they may spend more time planning that then executing any sort of plan, or just freeze up not knowing what to do. There's a reason Sunless Citadel is often suggested for new players (and DMs): it's good for introducing the concepts of the game and highlighting the pillars of gaming. Sometimes, less is more, and unless they are begging for another way in, i'd have them desend the gorge and enter the most logical way.
Still, the other suggestions are good, and if your adventurers feel ambitious enough to ACTUALLY go through the underdark, you can plan out a low level cave romp for them aside from the module itself to get them inside. Keep in mind though that this would be a lot of other stuff to throw at your green players (where the entrance is, how to find it, if they can go to town and get a guide, if they can risk random encounters while searching for an entrance alone, how they'd navigate the multiple tunnels without getting g lost, ect.)
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
So the group captured a goblin, asked it about the best way to invade it's home, and then let it go, telling it to go to a human town, on its honor, while they leisurely rest up for 8 hours? Rather than worry about giving the players the upper hand I think you need to teach them about consequences.
Seriously, do it now before they encounter more deadly threats down the road.
So yeah, set up an ambush, have the goblin they let go be a part of it "there they are boys! lets get em!!!". If the party needs a hand have the kobolds take advantage, surprising the goblins mid fight, taking some revenge of their own for stealing their mascot. Could be a nice set up for introducing the PC's to kobolds in a less than hostile way. My group had a ton of fun with Meepo in tow for a while.
Lol, yep - I was definitely surprised; I thought the experienced player (who has been my DM for a number of years) would've thought it through. You hit the nail on the head regarding why I want to ambush them. I just don't want to TPK my first group, lol. That is a really good idea too for introducing the kobolds.