I'm trying to put together a social/mystery/investigation thread in an upcoming adventure.
Essentially the PCs need to do some investigation to find out which street gang is responsible for a kidnapping, where they operate in the city, where their base of operations is ( in the sewers of course, where else do you put a gang headquarters? ), all before they can do a sewer dungeon crawl through to the gang's base, through traps and "tamed" guardian sewer beasts, try not to get side-tracked by the weird and eerie areas of the sewers that aren't related to the gang's operations ( there's got be at least one dark and secret cult shrine down there, right - maybe their dark rites have had unforeseen side effects on that burial catacomb over there ... ), fight the gang enforcers, and rescue the victims.
To build the mystery component, I'm trying to follow The Rule of Three - essentially having multiple clues pointing to each fact: what are the city street gangs in the city, where do they operate, who runs them, which one was responsible, and where is their base of operations.
One fall-back I'm planning is to have events occurring "naturally" that I can toss in if/when the players seem to get stuck. Yes, I'm totally having "random" events occur if/where/when needed by the party - Oh look, there's a street fight between rival gangs in this area ( indicating that these two gangs operate here ) just as you're going by ... how fortunate.
I'm curious as to how other DMs approach "coincidence"; how do you totally stack events around the players, but make it seem random?
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I prefer to approach these indirectly. I will place a pointer to a coincidental event that the players must uncover, much like a 'coincidental clue'. The players then have the option (or diceroll) to determine whether they'll investigate it further to discover the event on their own. This helps keep them in control of their story and progression, I feel, without slapping them with answers.
In my experience, players don't typically care whether it feels random or not - they care if whatever happens feels fun, and feels like their choices matter.
So while the players might be irritated by the "coincidence" that they run into something they have specifically attempted to avoid (like if they hear that going to a particular location might mean facing a beholder and they decide "yeah, no, we're not doing that" and go somewhere else instead... and then they face a beholder anyway), they probably won't even think about a coincidence that works out for them, like getting info they needed when they didn't necessarily know the needed it or that their current course of action could get it for them.
With D&D there is also a great potential to cover all "coincidence" within a particular adventure or campaign by having an 'unseen force' at play - whether that is destiny, a hidden rival pulling strings to complicate the party's lives, or a benevolent creature guiding the party (with or without their knowledge).
So my own approach to "coincidence" is to run the game in the moment and react to what the players are doing with their characters and what they seem to expect to be coming next - without really thinking about whether it will seem too coincidental or not.
I prefer to approach these indirectly. I will place a pointer to a coincidental event that the players must uncover, much like a 'coincidental clue'. The players then have the option (or diceroll) to determine whether they'll investigate it further to discover the event on their own. This helps keep them in control of their story and progression, I feel, without slapping them with answers.
I'm doing this with a lot of the other "non event" clues - for example if they investigate the kidnapping/murder scene they are going to find a weapon under a bush which has a sigil on it, in a language they don't speak, and if they get it translated, hey, it's the name of one of the street gangs.
What I also wanted to hold in my pocket was "random events" which would drop clues in their laps as well - but keep that to clues, not answers, which is what I think you're driving at.
In my experience, players don't typically care whether it feels random or not - they care if whatever happens feels fun, and feels like their choices matter.
So while the players might be irritated by the "coincidence" that they run into something they have specifically attempted to avoid ... they probably won't even think about a coincidence that works out for them, like getting info they needed when they didn't necessarily know the needed it or that their current course of action could get it for them.
I think this is an excellent point. I'm probably much more worried about plausibility and logic in my world events than my players are - so long it doesn't seem wildly illogical, and they're having fun.
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There is a PbP thread for Out of the Abyss that does this really well. It’s the one with AsbestosPenguin. Check it out.
Here is the framework used:
Let the players play in the sandbox until they start to get bored or confused, at which time the DM cues an event which railroads the players right into the next part of the story. Out of the Abyss even has a table of random events that would be appropriate for each sandbox.
But, are you suggesting that I find out what clues they uncover, and then retcon "the facts of the case" to point to what they conclude from their facts?
That might work is this one case; it's going to end up with them infiltrating a "Black Site" to rescue the prisoners ( the Party is really Rogue heavy ). With a little work I could make "cave/sewer version", "warehouse version", and "forest version" of the final dungeon crawl.
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But, are you suggesting that I find out what clues they uncover, and then retcon "the facts of the case" to point to what they conclude from their facts?
That might work is this one case; it's going to end up with them infiltrating a "Black Site" to rescue the prisoners ( the Party is really Rogue heavy ). With a little work I could make "cave/sewer version", "warehouse version", and "forest version" of the final dungeon crawl.
It's a trick I've used before. If your players get talking about what's going on and say something like "I bet it's [blank]", and they sound like they're happy or excited about that being the case, then go with that.
Though, I usually use that trick when I haven't already figured out the details because I am running strictly on improv, as it makes the players feel like everything "makes sense" (to such a degree that it legitimately took me more than 5 years to get my current players to believe me that I don't have a meticulously crafted plan for the entire campaign before they start playing it).
I'm trying to put together a social/mystery/investigation thread in an upcoming adventure.
Essentially the PCs need to do some investigation to find out which street gang is responsible for a kidnapping, where they operate in the city, where their base of operations is ( in the sewers of course, where else do you put a gang headquarters? ), all before they can do a sewer dungeon crawl through to the gang's base, through traps and "tamed" guardian sewer beasts, try not to get side-tracked by the weird and eerie areas of the sewers that aren't related to the gang's operations ( there's got be at least one dark and secret cult shrine down there, right - maybe their dark rites have had unforeseen side effects on that burial catacomb over there ... ), fight the gang enforcers, and rescue the victims.
To build the mystery component, I'm trying to follow The Rule of Three - essentially having multiple clues pointing to each fact: what are the city street gangs in the city, where do they operate, who runs them, which one was responsible, and where is their base of operations.
One fall-back I'm planning is to have events occurring "naturally" that I can toss in if/when the players seem to get stuck. Yes, I'm totally having "random" events occur if/where/when needed by the party - Oh look, there's a street fight between rival gangs in this area ( indicating that these two gangs operate here ) just as you're going by ... how fortunate.
I'm curious as to how other DMs approach "coincidence"; how do you totally stack events around the players, but make it seem random?
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I prefer to approach these indirectly. I will place a pointer to a coincidental event that the players must uncover, much like a 'coincidental clue'. The players then have the option (or diceroll) to determine whether they'll investigate it further to discover the event on their own. This helps keep them in control of their story and progression, I feel, without slapping them with answers.
In my experience, players don't typically care whether it feels random or not - they care if whatever happens feels fun, and feels like their choices matter.
So while the players might be irritated by the "coincidence" that they run into something they have specifically attempted to avoid (like if they hear that going to a particular location might mean facing a beholder and they decide "yeah, no, we're not doing that" and go somewhere else instead... and then they face a beholder anyway), they probably won't even think about a coincidence that works out for them, like getting info they needed when they didn't necessarily know the needed it or that their current course of action could get it for them.
With D&D there is also a great potential to cover all "coincidence" within a particular adventure or campaign by having an 'unseen force' at play - whether that is destiny, a hidden rival pulling strings to complicate the party's lives, or a benevolent creature guiding the party (with or without their knowledge).
So my own approach to "coincidence" is to run the game in the moment and react to what the players are doing with their characters and what they seem to expect to be coming next - without really thinking about whether it will seem too coincidental or not.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
There is a PbP thread for Out of the Abyss that does this really well. It’s the one with AsbestosPenguin. Check it out.
Here is the framework used:
Let the players play in the sandbox until they start to get bored or confused, at which time the DM cues an event which railroads the players right into the next part of the story. Out of the Abyss even has a table of random events that would be appropriate for each sandbox.
“Surviving Port Nyanzaru” - Dungeon Master Tier 1
Alternatively you can not decide who is responsible for the kidnappings and let the players work it out for you.
Given this party, I'm loathe to do that :p
But, are you suggesting that I find out what clues they uncover, and then retcon "the facts of the case" to point to what they conclude from their facts?
That might work is this one case; it's going to end up with them infiltrating a "Black Site" to rescue the prisoners ( the Party is really Rogue heavy ). With a little work I could make "cave/sewer version", "warehouse version", and "forest version" of the final dungeon crawl.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Through in the occasional red herring, and plot twist (maybe 15% of the time) and you'll be fine.
Formatting Tooltips, because I always forget