I'm currently prepping to run Storm King's Thunder for some friends who are wanting to get into D&D. I'm a pretty experienced DM but only really with homebrew campaigns so I wanted to find out how important is the suggested levelling in the published adventures. I'm not a huge fan of how quickly STK slams the players through levels 1-5 and so I am trying to slow that side of things down a little. I currently have spaced out the levelling from 1-4 a little better, adding in some extra combat and puzzles to make the levels slightly harder to reach, which would mean they will reach Bryn Shander in Chapter 2 at level 4. Would this be the worst thing as I know there are plenty of options to level up in Chapter 3 or is it best that they are level 5 for the giant attack?
I have already introduced Felgolos as an "ally" to the group but I have used him twice already to speed up combat so I would rather not have to use him again but that is a possible option to keep them at level 4. Or if anyone has any ideas of how to level them up in the build up around Bryn Shander before the battle?
Conversely would it be terrible starting the group at level 2? I would rather not as they are brand new to the game and so I don't want to overload them off the bat.
TL;DR Do the players have to be level 5 in Chapter 2 of STK or is it okay if they are level 4.
Is your issue that the players won't have time to learn the new abilities of their PCs prior to the next big fight, or that you don't want them to be @ 5th when they move forward? I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you would hold them back a level, then throw an NPC in the mix to help them through the tougher combat encounters. Seems like a bit of unnecessary back and forth, but that's just my perspective opinion.
If you are concerned with player familiarity, keep throwing side jobs at them until they seem more comfortable. If you are not wanting them to level as fast, slow the advancement of the game down with more side jobs and backstory quests. Or, you could always reverse engineer all of the combat encounters to meet with the party's new level advancement glide-path.
What does starting at level 2 do to remedy the rate of advancement vs. difficulty of the encounters? I'm willing to guess, that the encounters that are built-in provide the xp needed to level at the suggested rate.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
In the game I am playing, we started SKT at level 5. I would not have wanted to deal with the giant encounter at level 4. Even with a generous DM it was hard enough.
The encounter is three frost giants and two winter wolves at the gate. One frost giant and one winter wolf is already considered deadly for a party of four level 5 characters. Three giants and two winter wolves is well beyond that level and in a straight up fight the party is likely to die unless they have a great deal of luck or happen to have just the right spells. Even with the assistance of the NPCs, it is far from easy and if the NPCs are used as cannon fodder then several of them will die which many players would probably try to avoid.
When we played it Sirac came forward and identified himself as Artus Cimber's son and volunteered to go with the giants to save the town. We were able to negotiate a settlement with the giants where they would take Sirac with them and protect him while looking for Artus elsewhere. Otherwise, the odds looked good that the party would not survive (unless the DM added more help than the specified NPCs could provide or reduced the number of frost giants at the main gate). The module does give the option for the players to engage different frost giants but the way it is written, it is highly likely that the players engage the 3 frost giants and 2 winter wolves at the gate without the assistance of the local militia.
One other comment, looking at the base experience point value of 3 frost giants and 2 winter wolves the total is almost about 13,000 which, by itself, would be enough to level a 4th level character to 6th level or take a 5th level character to half way between 6th and 7th level.
So, I'd strongly suggest that if you want to run this encounter close to the way it is written, level 5 is a minimum. If you want to emphasize the possibility of a negotiated settlement giving up Sirac to the giants and avoiding a lot of the fight, it could be run at 4th level. However, keep in mind that two greataxe hits from a frost giant will do 50 hit points of damage on average with +9 to hit. A d12 character (barbarian) at level 4 with 16 con has 45 hit points on average and that is probably the maximum for a 4th level character - everyone else will have significantly less (a level 4 wizard with 14 con is 26 hit points and could be down in one hit from a frost giant if you are rolling damage instead of using the average). They will likely be down in the first round of combat from the damage of one frost giant.
Also, don't forget the breath weapons and knock prone ability of the winter wolves which will give the giants advantage on attacks. The only other real option is to allow the party to keep out of melee range and plink away with ranged attacks. However, even then the giants will be throwing one rock each/turn (doing an average 28 damage on each hit - a crit will bring any character down) or trying to break down the gate. With 138 hit points and 15 AC, a level 4 party with single attacks only with ranged weapons will take a long time taking down even one giant.
However, looking at the rest of the adventure, advancement seems relatively slow compared to the amount of content (especially in chapter 3 if you stick to the recommended levels for each chapter) so if you want to make the first four levels feel slower you could run something like the Lost Mines of Phandelver to get the characters from level 1-5 then move to SKT since that adventure may give you a somewhat slower rate of progression. Waterdeep: Dragon Heist might be a another option. Both are on the sword coast so heading up to Ice Wind Dale could be factored into the adventure or you could start them with the Triboar or Goldenfields encounter (since you only choose one in chapter 2). All of the giant attack options in chapter 2 look pretty brutal even for a level 5 party (though the goldenfields one looks like the hardest for the DM to run).
P.S. I'd be cautious about using overpowered NPCs (compared to the party) who constantly "save" the party in combat situations - it tends to make the players feel like their characters aren't the heroes of the adventure.
Hi everyone,
I'm currently prepping to run Storm King's Thunder for some friends who are wanting to get into D&D. I'm a pretty experienced DM but only really with homebrew campaigns so I wanted to find out how important is the suggested levelling in the published adventures. I'm not a huge fan of how quickly STK slams the players through levels 1-5 and so I am trying to slow that side of things down a little. I currently have spaced out the levelling from 1-4 a little better, adding in some extra combat and puzzles to make the levels slightly harder to reach, which would mean they will reach Bryn Shander in Chapter 2 at level 4. Would this be the worst thing as I know there are plenty of options to level up in Chapter 3 or is it best that they are level 5 for the giant attack?
I have already introduced Felgolos as an "ally" to the group but I have used him twice already to speed up combat so I would rather not have to use him again but that is a possible option to keep them at level 4. Or if anyone has any ideas of how to level them up in the build up around Bryn Shander before the battle?
Conversely would it be terrible starting the group at level 2? I would rather not as they are brand new to the game and so I don't want to overload them off the bat.
TL;DR Do the players have to be level 5 in Chapter 2 of STK or is it okay if they are level 4.
There's a big difference in power between level 4 and level 5, I'd be pretty wary of making that change.
Is your issue that the players won't have time to learn the new abilities of their PCs prior to the next big fight, or that you don't want them to be @ 5th when they move forward? I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you would hold them back a level, then throw an NPC in the mix to help them through the tougher combat encounters. Seems like a bit of unnecessary back and forth, but that's just my perspective opinion.
If you are concerned with player familiarity, keep throwing side jobs at them until they seem more comfortable. If you are not wanting them to level as fast, slow the advancement of the game down with more side jobs and backstory quests. Or, you could always reverse engineer all of the combat encounters to meet with the party's new level advancement glide-path.
What does starting at level 2 do to remedy the rate of advancement vs. difficulty of the encounters? I'm willing to guess, that the encounters that are built-in provide the xp needed to level at the suggested rate.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
In the game I am playing, we started SKT at level 5. I would not have wanted to deal with the giant encounter at level 4. Even with a generous DM it was hard enough.
The encounter is three frost giants and two winter wolves at the gate. One frost giant and one winter wolf is already considered deadly for a party of four level 5 characters. Three giants and two winter wolves is well beyond that level and in a straight up fight the party is likely to die unless they have a great deal of luck or happen to have just the right spells. Even with the assistance of the NPCs, it is far from easy and if the NPCs are used as cannon fodder then several of them will die which many players would probably try to avoid.
When we played it Sirac came forward and identified himself as Artus Cimber's son and volunteered to go with the giants to save the town. We were able to negotiate a settlement with the giants where they would take Sirac with them and protect him while looking for Artus elsewhere. Otherwise, the odds looked good that the party would not survive (unless the DM added more help than the specified NPCs could provide or reduced the number of frost giants at the main gate). The module does give the option for the players to engage different frost giants but the way it is written, it is highly likely that the players engage the 3 frost giants and 2 winter wolves at the gate without the assistance of the local militia.
One other comment, looking at the base experience point value of 3 frost giants and 2 winter wolves the total is almost about 13,000 which, by itself, would be enough to level a 4th level character to 6th level or take a 5th level character to half way between 6th and 7th level.
So, I'd strongly suggest that if you want to run this encounter close to the way it is written, level 5 is a minimum. If you want to emphasize the possibility of a negotiated settlement giving up Sirac to the giants and avoiding a lot of the fight, it could be run at 4th level. However, keep in mind that two greataxe hits from a frost giant will do 50 hit points of damage on average with +9 to hit. A d12 character (barbarian) at level 4 with 16 con has 45 hit points on average and that is probably the maximum for a 4th level character - everyone else will have significantly less (a level 4 wizard with 14 con is 26 hit points and could be down in one hit from a frost giant if you are rolling damage instead of using the average). They will likely be down in the first round of combat from the damage of one frost giant.
Also, don't forget the breath weapons and knock prone ability of the winter wolves which will give the giants advantage on attacks. The only other real option is to allow the party to keep out of melee range and plink away with ranged attacks. However, even then the giants will be throwing one rock each/turn (doing an average 28 damage on each hit - a crit will bring any character down) or trying to break down the gate. With 138 hit points and 15 AC, a level 4 party with single attacks only with ranged weapons will take a long time taking down even one giant.
However, looking at the rest of the adventure, advancement seems relatively slow compared to the amount of content (especially in chapter 3 if you stick to the recommended levels for each chapter) so if you want to make the first four levels feel slower you could run something like the Lost Mines of Phandelver to get the characters from level 1-5 then move to SKT since that adventure may give you a somewhat slower rate of progression. Waterdeep: Dragon Heist might be a another option. Both are on the sword coast so heading up to Ice Wind Dale could be factored into the adventure or you could start them with the Triboar or Goldenfields encounter (since you only choose one in chapter 2). All of the giant attack options in chapter 2 look pretty brutal even for a level 5 party (though the goldenfields one looks like the hardest for the DM to run).
P.S. I'd be cautious about using overpowered NPCs (compared to the party) who constantly "save" the party in combat situations - it tends to make the players feel like their characters aren't the heroes of the adventure.