So, here's the deal. My players just managed to screw over the plans of my bbeg for the second time, so I'm planning to have them run into the bbeg, or at least one of his mayor enforcers, very soon. I want to use this opportunity to make things more personal and give them a personal reason to keep fighting moving forward, but I'm not sure how. I don't have a convinent lovable NPC around to kill off, so the only way I can think off is for my enforcer to horribly humiliate them in a fight. Thing is that would basically mean me throwing an unwinnable fight their way and I'm not sure how happy my players will be with my BS OP NPC wiping the floor with them. Player agency and all. It may work in a movie or a book, but less so in a game like D&D. Does anyone have any ideas how to make things more personal without having to rely on such a method? Thanks in advance.
I've been tinkering with an idea. It may give you inspiration on this one.
The Big Baddy now knows the PCs by name or face or smell or whatever. It's time to get them back. BB obtains one half of a Necklace of Smite the Party, though it'd need a good name and story. When the two halves are put together like an 80s friendship necklace, the party is banished to the Bad Place or whatever you want to call it. Substitute their home town, kingdom, or favorite horse for flavor. It's now Find the McGuffin First o'clock, but it's very personal this time. It's all because BB hates the party and sits on a throne of anger with steam coming out of their ears like a cartoon. The actual quest can be anything, but now it means something. Maybe they get little outside help this time because many NPCs think, "screw your horse, it's not mine."
"Kill the NPC" can often come off as cheap and manipulative, anyway.
You're right to be wary of the "stomp them" plan; it's really hard to make that fun for the players.
I think your best approach would be to have the Big Evil treat them not as a threat, but as a persistent nuisance. That'll get under the players' skin much more effectively.
Who is the Big Evil? How do they wield power in the world? A manipulator will do this very differently from the classic Evil Overlord.
Putting a price on their head is a good move. From your perspective, the point is not to take them down, but instead to hassle them, make it hard for them to take a break without some jumped-up toughs making some trouble. After a little while, inns will ask them to move on because "we don't want trouble here". If the price is high enough, towns might do the same.
The players will absolutely dislike the idea of an unwinnable encounter. Give them a win, that isn't a win.
Consider re-skinning a Green Abishai if you have access, either version will work. Use Alter Self to appear to be someone/something other than the BBEG Lieutenant, bartender or innkeep is always a nice touch, borrow a Subtle Spell trait /Stealth/Sleight of Hand skill challenge (maybe with advantage if they've been consuming plentiful libations) to cast Mass Suggestion, offer the party the opportunity (suggestion) to take on the BBE's rivals, or some other thing to further the BBEG, and put the party at odds with the "good guys". The spell components can be the drinks that the barkeep offers to the party.
This allows the party an opportunity to have a winnable encounter that won't be a "win" exactly, not for the Home Team anyway. Could be a simple home invasion to take out an outspoken and successful rival, or other high profile target. Not all of the party will be potentially affected, and it could fail in the most wonderful fashion. But the party will get an idea of the petty actions that your BBE will stoop to in order to win. Including targeted assassination. 'Cause if they were approached to carry one out, why wouldn't anyone else?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
You could always throw a really hard encounter their way involving the bbeg's forces and if they win? Great! If they lose however maybe have the villain take the party prisoner and have them need to escape.
I'm reading the Wheel of Time series right now and every so often, to remind you the bad guys mean business, the author has one of the main characters get kidnapped and they have to slowly escape or get rescued all while under the thumb of their captors.
Taking away player agency can be dangerous, but as long as there's technically a chance to win the encounter, playing a little loose with player agency in an imprisonment scenario can provide cool motivation.
Do it through rp. Have a social encounter and make him a real jerk. A real big jerk. Stick the party on the other side of a wall of force, and have him taunt them. Use any inside jokes the party has and have him twist them. Make fun of their appearance. Mock how dumb they are and how weak (since it seems like everyone in this edition dumps str and int). Tell them that their efforts to thwart his plan were actually part of his plan, he needed that macguffin taken, so thanks for doing that bit of dirty work. Even if it’s a lie, just say things to get in their heads.
End with him threatening their families before he leaves. The threat was empty, he was just hoping to distract them and have them go check on their families for a bit while he hatches his plans. Or if you want to be a bit evil, the threat wasn’t empty, but the party only has time to get to 1 or two families. Who will they choose to help?
Maybe there isnt an NPC companion, but what about a town that the PCs have their base in? Torch it.
Reach into character backstories, and kill/destroy/mutilate whatever you need to from it. Do the PCs have a boat that they cruise around on? Make the agent of the BBEG attack the PCs. Cant beat them, but can sink their ship. Challenge them in a fight, steal their best weapons, then run. Something that will cost them somehow.
So, here's the deal. My players just managed to screw over the plans of my bbeg for the second time, so I'm planning to have them run into the bbeg, or at least one of his mayor enforcers, very soon. I want to use this opportunity to make things more personal and give them a personal reason to keep fighting moving forward, but I'm not sure how. I don't have a convinent lovable NPC around to kill off, so the only way I can think off is for my enforcer to horribly humiliate them in a fight. Thing is that would basically mean me throwing an unwinnable fight their way and I'm not sure how happy my players will be with my BS OP NPC wiping the floor with them. Player agency and all. It may work in a movie or a book, but less so in a game like D&D. Does anyone have any ideas how to make things more personal without having to rely on such a method? Thanks in advance.
I've been tinkering with an idea. It may give you inspiration on this one.
The Big Baddy now knows the PCs by name or face or smell or whatever. It's time to get them back. BB obtains one half of a Necklace of Smite the Party, though it'd need a good name and story. When the two halves are put together like an 80s friendship necklace, the party is banished to the Bad Place or whatever you want to call it. Substitute their home town, kingdom, or favorite horse for flavor. It's now Find the McGuffin First o'clock, but it's very personal this time. It's all because BB hates the party and sits on a throne of anger with steam coming out of their ears like a cartoon. The actual quest can be anything, but now it means something. Maybe they get little outside help this time because many NPCs think, "screw your horse, it's not mine."
"Kill the NPC" can often come off as cheap and manipulative, anyway.
You're right to be wary of the "stomp them" plan; it's really hard to make that fun for the players.
I think your best approach would be to have the Big Evil treat them not as a threat, but as a persistent nuisance. That'll get under the players' skin much more effectively.
Who is the Big Evil? How do they wield power in the world? A manipulator will do this very differently from the classic Evil Overlord.
Putting a price on their head is a good move. From your perspective, the point is not to take them down, but instead to hassle them, make it hard for them to take a break without some jumped-up toughs making some trouble. After a little while, inns will ask them to move on because "we don't want trouble here". If the price is high enough, towns might do the same.
The players will absolutely dislike the idea of an unwinnable encounter. Give them a win, that isn't a win.
Consider re-skinning a Green Abishai if you have access, either version will work. Use Alter Self to appear to be someone/something other than the BBEG Lieutenant, bartender or innkeep is always a nice touch, borrow a Subtle Spell trait /Stealth/Sleight of Hand skill challenge (maybe with advantage if they've been consuming plentiful libations) to cast Mass Suggestion, offer the party the opportunity (suggestion) to take on the BBE's rivals, or some other thing to further the BBEG, and put the party at odds with the "good guys". The spell components can be the drinks that the barkeep offers to the party.
This allows the party an opportunity to have a winnable encounter that won't be a "win" exactly, not for the Home Team anyway. Could be a simple home invasion to take out an outspoken and successful rival, or other high profile target. Not all of the party will be potentially affected, and it could fail in the most wonderful fashion. But the party will get an idea of the petty actions that your BBE will stoop to in order to win. Including targeted assassination. 'Cause if they were approached to carry one out, why wouldn't anyone else?
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
You could always throw a really hard encounter their way involving the bbeg's forces and if they win? Great! If they lose however maybe have the villain take the party prisoner and have them need to escape.
I'm reading the Wheel of Time series right now and every so often, to remind you the bad guys mean business, the author has one of the main characters get kidnapped and they have to slowly escape or get rescued all while under the thumb of their captors.
Taking away player agency can be dangerous, but as long as there's technically a chance to win the encounter, playing a little loose with player agency in an imprisonment scenario can provide cool motivation.
Do it through rp. Have a social encounter and make him a real jerk. A real big jerk. Stick the party on the other side of a wall of force, and have him taunt them. Use any inside jokes the party has and have him twist them. Make fun of their appearance. Mock how dumb they are and how weak (since it seems like everyone in this edition dumps str and int). Tell them that their efforts to thwart his plan were actually part of his plan, he needed that macguffin taken, so thanks for doing that bit of dirty work. Even if it’s a lie, just say things to get in their heads.
End with him threatening their families before he leaves. The threat was empty, he was just hoping to distract them and have them go check on their families for a bit while he hatches his plans. Or if you want to be a bit evil, the threat wasn’t empty, but the party only has time to get to 1 or two families. Who will they choose to help?
Maybe there isnt an NPC companion, but what about a town that the PCs have their base in? Torch it.
Reach into character backstories, and kill/destroy/mutilate whatever you need to from it. Do the PCs have a boat that they cruise around on? Make the agent of the BBEG attack the PCs. Cant beat them, but can sink their ship. Challenge them in a fight, steal their best weapons, then run. Something that will cost them somehow.
Thx for all the great advice. Gonna use some of it.