Forgive me. I'm an old fart that can't figure out how to add a quote from a previous post. So here goes with the best I can do until I do more studying.
David42 said "A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone. For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves’ tools, so a character who lacks that proficiency can’t help another character in that task."
First, I can't find that wording in the Player's Handbook. Is there another section where it makes that clarification?
Second, again, forgive me, but isn't that like saying you can't use a hammer or a screwdriver or a saw because you don't have proficiency with carpenter's tools or tinker's tools? Therefore, you can't hammer up planks across the window to keep the zombies out? Or you can't use a spatula to flip an egg because you don't have proficiency with cook's utensils? Therefore, you can't help another character make breakfast for a larger group? Obviously, without the proficiency (or even expertise) you wouldn't be able to build a decent piece of furniture, or make a gourmet meal. But wouldn't you still be able to drive a nail or cook a meager breakfast?
Your example of proficiency with thieves' tools does kind of make sense in that you probably wouldn't pick up a lockpick unless you have learned or intend to learn to use it. But I don't understand why someone can't have the option to try without the proficiency. I thought the whole concept of proficiency was that you were better at a skill because you worked at it. Doesn't that mean you can still use the tool without the proficiency, you just won't get as good results?
I apologize if I'm coming across as argumentative. I'm just trying to understand if I should be doing things differently in my games.
No worries. Asking for the reference isn't argumentative. :)
PHB p175 (10th printing in case it matters) Ability Checks section - Working Together
"WORKING TOGETHER Sometimes two or more characters team up to attempt a task. The character who's leading the effort-or the one with the highest ability modifier-can make an ability check with advantage, reflecting the help provided by the other characters. In combat, this requires the Help action (see chapter 9, "Combat"). A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone. For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves' tools, so a character who lacks that proficiency can't help another character in that task. Moreover, a character can help only when two or more individuals working together would actually be productive. Some tasks, such as threading a needle, are no easier with help."
As for using a hammer :) ... I'm not a skilled carpenter but I can certainly use a hammer. However, I would be challenged to create a piece of fine furniture. On the other hand, hammering together a basic bench, even if it wobbles a bit, would certainly be possible. Skills in D&D, in my opinion, work similarly. There are a wide range of tasks that folks could attempt based on common knowledge and their natural abilities. They can know things simply because they are alive and have experienced the world during their travels or might have chatted with someone and heard information over ale in a pub. On the other hand, there are tasks where either learning or training make it much more likely or even possible to succeed at a task. If I asked someone on the street about delta-epsilon proofs and how they work then I would expect a blank gaze unless they had studied the fundamental theorem of calculus.
There can certainly be D&D skill checks that are made either much easier or even possible with proficiency and practice. Think about some of the skills demonstrated by acrobats in real life. I know I'd probably kill myself if I tried some of those. D&D characters would probably have a better chance at survival but there could be something a player describes their character doing that I would rule has no chance of success unless the character was proficient at acrobatics. Or I might impose disadvantage on the check if they don't know acrobatics. It wouldn't happen often but it would depend on what the character wants to do. e.g "swing across three chandeliers and drop to the ground behind the enemy on the floor with my shortsword ready to stab into them" ... if you aren't already an acrobat, the odds of success are probably a lot less than the proficiency bonus added to the skill check.
However, as with all skill checks, it comes down to the DMs judgement in terms of DC, in terms of whether proficiency would be required or preferred for a specific task, whether someone could help with a task and the nature of the task. The DM thinks about what the player says the character or characters want to do then they decide on the response and asks for a skill check if any. Depending on the task the and the character skills, the DM might just choose to narrate the success if they judge the chance of failure to be too small to worry about.
No worries. Asking for the reference isn't argumentative. :)
PHB p175 (10th printing in case it matters) Ability Checks section - Working Together
"WORKING TOGETHER
Sometimes two or more characters team up to attempt a task. The character who's leading the effort-or the one with the highest ability modifier-can make an ability check with advantage, reflecting the help provided by the other characters. In combat, this requires the Help action (see chapter 9, "Combat"). A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone. For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves' tools, so a character who lacks that proficiency can't help another character in that task. Moreover, a character can help only when two or more individuals working together would actually be productive. Some tasks, such as threading a needle, are no easier with help."
As for using a hammer :) ... I'm not a skilled carpenter but I can certainly use a hammer. However, I would be challenged to create a piece of fine furniture. On the other hand, hammering together a basic bench, even if it wobbles a bit, would certainly be possible. Skills in D&D, in my opinion, work similarly. There are a wide range of tasks that folks could attempt based on common knowledge and their natural abilities. They can know things simply because they are alive and have experienced the world during their travels or might have chatted with someone and heard information over ale in a pub. On the other hand, there are tasks where either learning or training make it much more likely or even possible to succeed at a task. If I asked someone on the street about delta-epsilon proofs and how they work then I would expect a blank gaze unless they had studied the fundamental theorem of calculus.
There can certainly be D&D skill checks that are made either much easier or even possible with proficiency and practice. Think about some of the skills demonstrated by acrobats in real life. I know I'd probably kill myself if I tried some of those. D&D characters would probably have a better chance at survival but there could be something a player describes their character doing that I would rule has no chance of success unless the character was proficient at acrobatics. Or I might impose disadvantage on the check if they don't know acrobatics. It wouldn't happen often but it would depend on what the character wants to do. e.g "swing across three chandeliers and drop to the ground behind the enemy on the floor with my shortsword ready to stab into them" ... if you aren't already an acrobat, the odds of success are probably a lot less than the proficiency bonus added to the skill check.
However, as with all skill checks, it comes down to the DMs judgement in terms of DC, in terms of whether proficiency would be required or preferred for a specific task, whether someone could help with a task and the nature of the task. The DM thinks about what the player says the character or characters want to do then they decide on the response and asks for a skill check if any. Depending on the task the and the character skills, the DM might just choose to narrate the success if they judge the chance of failure to be too small to worry about.
Also available online at https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#WorkingTogether
Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate you all.