So, on a current campaign, one of my players attacks at almost every encounter or interaction. It's erasing any semblance of story or purpose, not to mention negating any player skills or tool proficiencies. It's made the game quite narrow, and feels so much less than DND can be.
A few things:
-the player in question is experienced, fun and easy to play with, and is playing the character TOTALLY consistent with backstory (playing a barbarian half-orc with a history of childhood brain injury that has limited cognitive function (INT-6 if I recall), and executive function (basically impulsive violence). So yes, my fault for not seeing this coming.
(there's party member that's new to DND so we all agreed restrict to PHB rules with some latitude for exceptions).
-the group seems to be having fun. When he attacks a totally non-hostile NPC, the rest of the party joins in the violence (so is this issue even a problem?)
Solutions:
-considered killing him off, but I honestly don't think I could reliably kill him off without killing everyone or being totally obvious (enemy with "orc hatred": -resistant to damage from enraged enemies, plus 5 attack/plus 10 damage against enemies with any orc blood, and will continue to attack even an unconscious orc or half-orc until dead...other than that she's the serving wench. LOL, that's actually not a bad idea.)
-have the player adjust his back story so that the character has basic impulse control? honestly, my guess is he'd probably cooperate.
-is this even a problem? am I just butt-hurt because the stories and characters I created are just being destroyed by a hand axe? I could just accept it and put the campaign on rails, almost no matter what they do they end up where they need to go? If I do this need more advice: There is an encounter coming up that is not meant to be combat, but the whole party will certainly be killed if it becomes combat. Do I re-write this to keep the campaign alive, or do I just play it out to teach the new guy that just attacking every time is NOT the way to play. (I think the player of the problem character is expecting to be killed by starting something he can't finish).
-other suggestions?
Thanks friends, and may the dice be ever in your favour.
The DM should be having fun as well as the players. If you aren't having fun, then that's a problem.
A situation where combat would inevitably end in death would seem to be perfect. Nobody could blame you if your players chose to screw up an encounter that they could have resolved easily. Randomly killing neutral people should have consequences, such as law being involved or powerful people wanting revenge. Don't be afraid to push on the boundaries of character death, including for the characters other than the barbarian in question; they're just as willing to join in on the murderhobo party, after all. They should reap what they sow. If they keep getting blood on their hands, sooner or later the blood's going to be coming from their throat.
It's not cool to wreck a story because "iT's WhAt My ChArActEr WoUlD dO," so you should also have a talk with the problem player. Definitely be wary of murderhobo backstories.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Solution 2: an apparently harmless NPC who turns out to be a lvl 20 wizard with power word kill prepared
Solution 3: an encounter with a VIP (royalty, head of a continent-spanning Thieves Guild, whatever), who an attack on would basically make the lives of the entire party forfeit
Solution 4: talk to the player to rein it in, before you have to resort to 2 or 3. Regardless of backstory or stats, "it's what my character would do" is never a valid excuse for just wrecking the game with murderhoboing
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would discuss the options with the players as a whole as Quar1on said limit the options to those you would enjoy DMing:
Run a campaign where the party are evil. As the party commit more and more acts of violence the authorities put greater and greater resources into stopping them. Initially it will be town guard and as they level up the authorities start putting in greater resources. Actions in D&D have consequences, if someone is randomly killing non-hostile innocents think how people would react to that (run away, attack, call the guard, put a bounty on them etc)
Tone down the barbarian so they are not impulsavly violence, at least to innocents
Retire the barbarian (if you go this option you could either just play the next session with a new character or play it out, for example have the next attack witnessed by an ancient metallic dragon in humanoid form),
I think I let this get bigger in my head than it really is. I'll talk to the player and offer him an adjustment of his character, or bring a new character to next session as this one will get himself killed in the first hour, so we'll just work his new one into the game after that. As long as I do this now, the campaign can easily be put back on track.
Honestly, I think the real problem here was my own lack of DMing confidence. None of the players seemed to have an issue, so I felt like I was the one creating the problem. But you're right, this is my free time too. I get to have fun as well.
I think I let this get bigger in my head than it really is. I'll talk to the player and offer him an adjustment of his character, or bring a new character to next session as this one will get himself killed in the first hour, so we'll just work his new one into the game after that. As long as I do this now, the campaign can easily be put back on track.
Honestly, I think the real problem here was my own lack of DMing confidence. None of the players seemed to have an issue, so I felt like I was the one creating the problem. But you're right, this is my free time too. I get to have fun as well.
Thanks again!
You may also want to have a mini-session 0 to check with the whole party to see what their expectations for the game are. You mentioned one of the players was brand new... maybe the more experienced player(s) think reducing it to hack 'n' slash is the best way to introduce the newbie to combat mechanics etc, or otherwise think leaning away from RP would be easier/better for them?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think you may want to keep in mind that someone who goes around randomly attacking people will eventually run into someone much more powerful than themselves OR their actions of attacking without provocation will cause authorities to take action.
The question you first need to answer though is - is this a player problem or a character problem? Then decide how your world works. What would happen in YOUR world to creatures that randomly attack innocent bystanders? Is this the kind of action where authorities would hire mercenaries to hunt them down? Would they capture them and bring them in for justice or would they administer summary justice because the creature is known to be guilty.
Depending on how your world is built, have a chat with your players about CONSEQUENCES. Explain that the actions the players take will have consequences in the game world. Someone out there really won't like their merchants or the town guard or whoever else being killed because they looked at a customer or passerby sideways. At this point, the players may or may not realize that they might be better off role playing restraining their brain damaged companion rather than going along with it and killing more innocents.
After that, point the players/characters in the direction of valid targets. The players may just like a good fight and some fun rolling dice, it is up to the DM to decide how to give them that within the context of the game world but remind the players it is a role playing game and that the choices of the characters WILL have consequences. That NPCs will make choices and decisions in response to the character actions. When the characters prevent bandits from harming a caravan, the caravan owner/guards or the towns along the route may be more friendly and reward them. If they attack the caravan and slaughter them then the opposite will be true. Bounty hunters and mercenaries might be hired to bring them in because they are acting as bandits or criminals. If the characters wonder how they can be identified - there could be survivors that escape and the speak with dead spell exists - most characters don't think of these things when pillaging but D&D is a world of magic. Slaughtering a wealthy caravan might well result in the owner investing the resources needed to hunt down the PCs and terminate them with extreme prejudice if only to deter future attacks.
Usually, I find that explaining to the players that the characters live in a world with consequences helps them make more reasonable character choices.
On the other hand, if it is an obnoxious player problem then you'll need to address the issue directly with the players, especially if it is a play style you don't enjoy running.
An experienced player shouldn't really be playing a murder hobo when there are new players in the group. The experienced player should know that the first impressions (e.g. first game session) really sets the tone for how the new players will view the game for all future sessions.
So, on a current campaign, one of my players attacks at almost every encounter or interaction. It's erasing any semblance of story or purpose, not to mention negating any player skills or tool proficiencies. It's made the game quite narrow, and feels so much less than DND can be.
A few things:
-the player in question is experienced, fun and easy to play with, and is playing the character TOTALLY consistent with backstory (playing a barbarian half-orc with a history of childhood brain injury that has limited cognitive function (INT-6 if I recall), and executive function (basically impulsive violence). So yes, my fault for not seeing this coming.
In the Order of the Stick webcomic there's a Halfling Ranger whose Wisdom is low, and when it's raised temporarily they reflect on their morality and previous actions. Despite lasting only a few panels and played for laughs, it stands out to me as one of the best examples of Wisdom. Intelligence is what you know, and Wisdom is how you apply that knowledge ("INT says Frankstein isn't the monster, WIS says Frankenstein is the monster). The point of all this is that if the Barbarian is particularly wise (if only above above 8 points in WIS), they should be able to figure that hurting people makes them not like them, and not hurting people may make them like them. If not, they will eventually encounter someone who will be able to beat them and may not be merciful. Even simple beasts with less intelligence have basic survival/fight-or-flight instincts, and don't launch themselves into a flurry of attacks without good reason.
Rarely do I like solving player problems with in-character solutions, and this very much seems like a player problem (this sort of behaviour comes from people who are bored or want more attention), but if they can be trusted to roleplay it they might be beaten down and the party explain to them why they can't keep getting into fights like they do, that could work. If that doesn't work or you don't trust them to roleplay with the idea, then they need a talking to, person-to-person.
Personally, and this is only due to my experience as an autistic person who has heard 'high functioning' and 'low functioning' to no end, I just wouldn't allow someone to come to the table with this kind of character. I don't trust people to roleplay mental illness in a way I would feel comfortable with, as it's not just some quirky personality trait for others to toy with. Case and point, the Barbarian at your table.
(there's party member that's new to DND so we all agreed restrict to PHB rules with some latitude for exceptions).
-the group seems to be having fun. When he attacks a totally non-hostile NPC, the rest of the party joins in the violence (so is this issue even a problem?)
As Quar1on says above, all participants must enjoy the overall experience. I say 'participants' because all Players are participants, but not all participants are Players. You as the DM are participating in the activity also, and therefore if it's not fun for you, you need to call for a timeout and talk to the players. Remind them that they're at your table, and you have certain expectations. Either party can choose to leave if they're dissatisfied, as no D&D is better than bad D&D. If you're all fine with the combat heavy campaign, maybe take a break and play (or create) a more combat heavy experience like a dungeoncrawler. The campaign you're currently running might simply be better suited to a different kind of group.
In the campaign where I'm currently a player the party is sometimes at odds with one another. Even as a political officer I've turned my back to war crimes so not to cause a divide the party ("now I personally am against executing our prisoners, but you could... if I went away to keep watch for stragglers"), so I know what it means to want to assist someone to keep the group together. My group, the Hydra, has all done things we'd rather not do for the sake of group cohesion. The problem is when one person decides to do something astronomically stupid, and in turn ropes everyone else in for the safety of party cohesion. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and just about every D&D game is very much about a chain composed of multiple links tested by multiple threats.
What bothers me is not just that one person is making all of the decisions, but rather it's one person making a single decision every time: combat. And that's fine in a dungeon crawl, but not when you're in a civilised (and potentially guarded) location. Given the party has a history of attacking people (and however little the party wanted to join in, they did join in and don't seem to have attempted diplomacy), I'd say they have an ever increasing bounty on their heads. Few - if any - merchants will want to trade with them. Chapels will rebuke them and their patron gods will likely want them to go on some sort of pilgrimage to atone for their sins. Even criminal elements, at least the smart ones, will avoid being seen with these public killers. Again, as much as I dislike solving player problems with in-game solutions, these are natural consequences that would come about in the world should you choose to continue to play like this.
-considered killing him off, but I honestly don't think I could reliably kill him off without killing everyone or being totally obvious (enemy with "orc hatred": -resistant to damage from enraged enemies, plus 5 attack/plus 10 damage against enemies with any orc blood, and will continue to attack even an unconscious orc or half-orc until dead...other than that she's the serving wench. LOL, that's actually not a bad idea.)
The Barbarian's not exactly been subtle himself, why should you be? And why does it have to be enemy-singular? Why not a group of guards doing their jobs, mercenaries doing their jobs, troopers on leave getting tired of people disrupting their evening? At least one of those groups will have a mage who will have some crowd control spells like Hold Person. At most as a mercy they're dragged by their heels to go to heal up naturally in a deep dark prison cell or asylum and live out the rest of their days there, as the player rolls up another character who is more appropriate for the campaign.
The enemy you put them up against doesn't need any sort of special modifiers, but they don't need to be a retired level 20 adventurer either. They just need to control the situation.
-have the player adjust his back story so that the character has basic impulse control? honestly, my guess is he'd probably cooperate.
This could work. Try that if they're not willing to RP the whole Wisdom thing I mentioned above. If they can hold back against the members of their party (which they should because PvP is rarely a good idea), they should be able to hold back against NPCs too. Out of all the suggestions I make, communication is the absolute best one.
-is this even a problem? am I just butt-hurt because the stories and characters I created are just being destroyed by a hand axe? I could just accept it and put the campaign on rails, almost no matter what they do they end up where they need to go? If I do this need more advice: There is an encounter coming up that is not meant to be combat, but the whole party will certainly be killed if it becomes combat. Do I re-write this to keep the campaign alive, or do I just play it out to teach the new guy that just attacking every time is NOT the way to play. (I think the player of the problem character is expecting to be killed by starting something he can't finish).
I'll begin by saying no, you're not butt-hurt. You had a specific campaign and tone in mind, and players have - actively and passively - have turned it into something else. As much as we like to pontificate about having a Session Zero, it doesn't make you clairvoyant, you can't read the future and know when which player is going to disrupt your game. What you can do, and should do, is have a time-out one-to-one.
Does it need to be a railroad? No. Do as you normally would, and if they die it's because they didn't take any precautions or try to change the outcome. Even retreat is an option, however little players may like it or think it. Forgive the disastrous wording here, but perhaps a TPK is what your campaign needs, and your players are merrily paving the way to one. Maybe then they'll appreciate the tone you were going for, maybe they'll leave, or maybe you'll all have more fun in a dungeoncrawl.
Whatever you decide to go with, I wish you the best of luck. When I say I hope you all have a good time with whatever happens next, I mean I want you to enjoy yourself as well.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
Hey this is great, it sounds like you got a group of old school veterans just trying to get back to the roots of D&D of looting dungeons and hitting stuff.
Focus all your energy on creating a giant mega dungeon for them to run.
I don't know what level the party is, but personally I'd just have them run into a Vampire or such. When they attack unprovoked, kill the offending character. A PC who randomly attacks anything in their path is either asking to be killed (and will find it fun) or feels invulnerable, meaning they're meta-gaming against the perceived world.
Have the lord of a village tell them to behave while they're there. That's likely a red flag to a bull. The people of the village are under his protection. If the PCs ignore his warning, then when they murder someone, have the lord (vampire) turn up and let them understand that they aren't gods.
Have a group of thugs show up saying" we are here to teach you a lesson". These thugs are not level appropriate and will kill the entire party if they are in any way responsible for the chaos being wrought by your players,
Also you definitely do not have to approve any back story you feel will result in the player going rogue 'just because'.
And yes, remind the group that you are in this for the fun of it, and that you can find other things to occupy your time. DM abuse is not something you have to put up with. I have certainly asked my share of players not to come back to my game if they couldn't control their impulses.
Hey this is great, it sounds like you got a group of old school veterans just trying to get back to the roots of D&D of looting dungeons and hitting stuff.
Focus all your energy on creating a giant mega dungeon for them to run.
Oh yes the deep dungeon crawl. The only thing you find here is death.
Oh, and stop giving experience for those encounters where the disruptive player starts killing for the fun of it.
I like these ideas. Talk it out with the group and talk about the consequences of incessant rampages. If it persists...
I really like the idea of a cure/restoration spell or potion that raises his intelligence some and gets rid of "Phineas Gage-like" lack of restraint. Makes him dumb but playable.
If that doesn't work, bounty hunter and/or mob that annihilates the entire party in a blaze of glory. They may like that anyways!
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Velstitzen
I am a 40 something year old physician who DMs for a group of 40 something year old doctors. We play a hybrid game, mostly based on 2nd edition rules with some homebrew and 5E components.
This should be the type of stuff to handle in session zero. As others have noted; it's your fun as well as the DM. Communicate this with your players, and find an option that that works for all involved.
"as you crest a slight rise in the path there becomes visible a pile of leaves and in the middle of that sits a..." ((hey, what's the orc's favorite dessert? something they can't resist gobbling up? cupcake? thanks.)) "...sits a cupcake. delicious and undefended. but, wait! just as you see it, a fox has arrived. the animal looks from your group to the cupcake and back. clearly it is considering taking the cupcake. quick, what do you do?"
the barbarian rushes at the cupcake, obviously, right? are you driven entirely by impulse or not?
pausing even briefly for a perception check would reveal that the very nimble fox is not about to eat the cupcake, they're simply keeping watch for their handler, a (poorly) camouflaged kneeling ranger, who is occupied with rummaging through their rucksack. also, it's plainly obvious that the leaves are (poorly!) obscuring several bear traps and the cupcake is bait for one of them. you are not this ranger's quarry but the rest of the party are almost certainly standing in their net trap if they decide to join the barbarian in hostilities. the ranger will immediately make clear that they are sheriff for the nearby town and call out to a squad of bow-wielding deputies nearby. "stop in the name of the law!"
it's at this point, with everyone twisting in the wind who didn't remain civil, that I as the DM would call a halt and briefly but frankly ask the party (out of character) "are you evil? are you agents of chaos? you have a chance of talking your way out of this just like if it was you in the woods not wanting to go to jail." I would go on to explain that the barbarian might make poor choices but it could be just as entertaining to try to rein him in (and for his player to allow him to be reined in) sometimes. preferably before he drags the party into a boring routine of assaulting innocents and running in circles from the law for little to no XP. the 'low IQ aggression' thing is a negative stereotype that's gone on long enough. you could be living a story of adventure. one which the DM enjoys participating in as much as the players. this hasn't been a lot of fun from behind the DM's shield watching the plot purposely derailed over and over. if everyone's ready to see where this story takes us: show us with your actions! let's see how the gang gets out of this one... preferably before the barbarian ends their adventuring career footless!
...personally, i don't have time to be everyone's counselor and talk to each player separately. and even if i did i'd worry it would turn into discussions of toxicity and disruption that would feel a bit too much like talking behind other people's back. i'd much rather improvise an ambush and get the main bits out in the open, resolve them immediately, and move on down the road. this might seem like papering over the problem rather than addressing it and... yeah, there's elements of that. but at least this makes a stab at retaining group cohesion. i'm more leery about the group falling apart between sessions than during one. shrug.
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1: Add consequences. The tavern bard that was playing a song he didn’t like? Welp, that was the kings favorite and is sending all knights to capture him. The guide they killed? A lich in disguise that was keeping order in multiple towns and empires and was even keeping a ancient red dragon asleep.
2: Kill them off. In my opinion one of the worst things to do but it is a possible solution. I recommend the first option so much but if it doesn’t work try #3 then resort to this or kicking them out.
3: Pull them aside. Tell them to cut it out before you do #2 or #1. You can ask to revamp and all the good stuff. If you want to prevent this in all possible campaigns, do a session 0. It helps communicate what the character and player wants while guiding them away from bad things.
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I was literally coming here to mention consequences. If they've murdered that many people - heck, even one person - there should already be warrants out for their arrest. Even if there was no witness - there could have been a witness that they were not aware of who has witnessed one, or several, of these crimes of murder - and has now turned to the local authority to have them captured.
If they want to be murder hobos, show them what a reputation of that does. Need to buy potions? You can't. Turns out your murderous fame has reached this town. Guards are on the look out for you.
Need information? Can't. No one trusts you. Your reputation proceeds you.
Make their lives, as characters, very, very, very difficult for them. Show them there is consequence for their action. Make a story of it.
Bounty hunters are sent after them. Non stop. Because there's a reward.
When they camp for the night to rest after a fight - rest is interrupted by bounty hunters who have been tracking them down.
Have them in the middle of a fight with goblins - when suddenly, arrows come flying from somewhere else.
Bounty hunters, capitalizing on the party being attacked by goblins, are now firing on them as well.
Eventually, they come across a farmer who needs their help (against goblins, orcs, bugbears, whatever) who keep raiding his farms, killing or taking his livestock.
If the party helps him, he offers them a place to safely rest in his barn - where they might finally get a long rest.
If they attack or steal from the farmer, that's their last line of hope.
And ill fame and death haunts them from then on.
If they help the farmer, then the farmer starts talking about them.
It's OK to go to a player and say "hey, I as the DM don't know how to run a game for this type of character. I'm not able to run a story that has no npcs. Could you please adapt to my experience level?"
Some players are used to the DM being all powerful and having all the answers, that they forget that DMing is also a skill. Maybe there's a DM out there that is experienced enough to run a fulfilling story out of a pile of dead NPC's, but not everyone can do that, and the player should know that you're suffering for it.
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So, on a current campaign, one of my players attacks at almost every encounter or interaction. It's erasing any semblance of story or purpose, not to mention negating any player skills or tool proficiencies. It's made the game quite narrow, and feels so much less than DND can be.
A few things:
-the player in question is experienced, fun and easy to play with, and is playing the character TOTALLY consistent with backstory (playing a barbarian half-orc with a history of childhood brain injury that has limited cognitive function (INT-6 if I recall), and executive function (basically impulsive violence). So yes, my fault for not seeing this coming.
(there's party member that's new to DND so we all agreed restrict to PHB rules with some latitude for exceptions).
-the group seems to be having fun. When he attacks a totally non-hostile NPC, the rest of the party joins in the violence (so is this issue even a problem?)
Solutions:
-considered killing him off, but I honestly don't think I could reliably kill him off without killing everyone or being totally obvious (enemy with "orc hatred": -resistant to damage from enraged enemies, plus 5 attack/plus 10 damage against enemies with any orc blood, and will continue to attack even an unconscious orc or half-orc until dead...other than that she's the serving wench. LOL, that's actually not a bad idea.)
-have the player adjust his back story so that the character has basic impulse control? honestly, my guess is he'd probably cooperate.
-is this even a problem? am I just butt-hurt because the stories and characters I created are just being destroyed by a hand axe? I could just accept it and put the campaign on rails, almost no matter what they do they end up where they need to go? If I do this need more advice: There is an encounter coming up that is not meant to be combat, but the whole party will certainly be killed if it becomes combat. Do I re-write this to keep the campaign alive, or do I just play it out to teach the new guy that just attacking every time is NOT the way to play. (I think the player of the problem character is expecting to be killed by starting something he can't finish).
-other suggestions?
Thanks friends, and may the dice be ever in your favour.
The DM should be having fun as well as the players. If you aren't having fun, then that's a problem.
A situation where combat would inevitably end in death would seem to be perfect. Nobody could blame you if your players chose to screw up an encounter that they could have resolved easily. Randomly killing neutral people should have consequences, such as law being involved or powerful people wanting revenge. Don't be afraid to push on the boundaries of character death, including for the characters other than the barbarian in question; they're just as willing to join in on the murderhobo party, after all. They should reap what they sow. If they keep getting blood on their hands, sooner or later the blood's going to be coming from their throat.
It's not cool to wreck a story because "iT's WhAt My ChArActEr WoUlD dO," so you should also have a talk with the problem player. Definitely be wary of murderhobo backstories.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Solution 1: a headband of intellect
Solution 2: an apparently harmless NPC who turns out to be a lvl 20 wizard with power word kill prepared
Solution 3: an encounter with a VIP (royalty, head of a continent-spanning Thieves Guild, whatever), who an attack on would basically make the lives of the entire party forfeit
Solution 4: talk to the player to rein it in, before you have to resort to 2 or 3. Regardless of backstory or stats, "it's what my character would do" is never a valid excuse for just wrecking the game with murderhoboing
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would discuss the options with the players as a whole as Quar1on said limit the options to those you would enjoy DMing:
Since you posted here, I assume you don't like the murder hobo attitude.
Talk to the player about adjusting his backstory so that he isn't one.
Talk to the other players (the new players) to explain the situation.
Next time they meet NPCs, give them a gentle reminder about what the letters RP mean in RPG.
Thanks everyone! Great suggestions.
I think I let this get bigger in my head than it really is. I'll talk to the player and offer him an adjustment of his character, or bring a new character to next session as this one will get himself killed in the first hour, so we'll just work his new one into the game after that. As long as I do this now, the campaign can easily be put back on track.
Honestly, I think the real problem here was my own lack of DMing confidence. None of the players seemed to have an issue, so I felt like I was the one creating the problem. But you're right, this is my free time too. I get to have fun as well.
Thanks again!
You may also want to have a mini-session 0 to check with the whole party to see what their expectations for the game are. You mentioned one of the players was brand new... maybe the more experienced player(s) think reducing it to hack 'n' slash is the best way to introduce the newbie to combat mechanics etc, or otherwise think leaning away from RP would be easier/better for them?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think you may want to keep in mind that someone who goes around randomly attacking people will eventually run into someone much more powerful than themselves OR their actions of attacking without provocation will cause authorities to take action.
The question you first need to answer though is - is this a player problem or a character problem? Then decide how your world works. What would happen in YOUR world to creatures that randomly attack innocent bystanders? Is this the kind of action where authorities would hire mercenaries to hunt them down? Would they capture them and bring them in for justice or would they administer summary justice because the creature is known to be guilty.
Depending on how your world is built, have a chat with your players about CONSEQUENCES. Explain that the actions the players take will have consequences in the game world. Someone out there really won't like their merchants or the town guard or whoever else being killed because they looked at a customer or passerby sideways. At this point, the players may or may not realize that they might be better off role playing restraining their brain damaged companion rather than going along with it and killing more innocents.
After that, point the players/characters in the direction of valid targets. The players may just like a good fight and some fun rolling dice, it is up to the DM to decide how to give them that within the context of the game world but remind the players it is a role playing game and that the choices of the characters WILL have consequences. That NPCs will make choices and decisions in response to the character actions. When the characters prevent bandits from harming a caravan, the caravan owner/guards or the towns along the route may be more friendly and reward them. If they attack the caravan and slaughter them then the opposite will be true. Bounty hunters and mercenaries might be hired to bring them in because they are acting as bandits or criminals. If the characters wonder how they can be identified - there could be survivors that escape and the speak with dead spell exists - most characters don't think of these things when pillaging but D&D is a world of magic. Slaughtering a wealthy caravan might well result in the owner investing the resources needed to hunt down the PCs and terminate them with extreme prejudice if only to deter future attacks.
Usually, I find that explaining to the players that the characters live in a world with consequences helps them make more reasonable character choices.
On the other hand, if it is an obnoxious player problem then you'll need to address the issue directly with the players, especially if it is a play style you don't enjoy running.
An experienced player shouldn't really be playing a murder hobo when there are new players in the group. The experienced player should know that the first impressions (e.g. first game session) really sets the tone for how the new players will view the game for all future sessions.
In the Order of the Stick webcomic there's a Halfling Ranger whose Wisdom is low, and when it's raised temporarily they reflect on their morality and previous actions. Despite lasting only a few panels and played for laughs, it stands out to me as one of the best examples of Wisdom. Intelligence is what you know, and Wisdom is how you apply that knowledge ("INT says Frankstein isn't the monster, WIS says Frankenstein is the monster). The point of all this is that if the Barbarian is particularly wise (if only above above 8 points in WIS), they should be able to figure that hurting people makes them not like them, and not hurting people may make them like them. If not, they will eventually encounter someone who will be able to beat them and may not be merciful. Even simple beasts with less intelligence have basic survival/fight-or-flight instincts, and don't launch themselves into a flurry of attacks without good reason.
Rarely do I like solving player problems with in-character solutions, and this very much seems like a player problem (this sort of behaviour comes from people who are bored or want more attention), but if they can be trusted to roleplay it they might be beaten down and the party explain to them why they can't keep getting into fights like they do, that could work. If that doesn't work or you don't trust them to roleplay with the idea, then they need a talking to, person-to-person.
Personally, and this is only due to my experience as an autistic person who has heard 'high functioning' and 'low functioning' to no end, I just wouldn't allow someone to come to the table with this kind of character. I don't trust people to roleplay mental illness in a way I would feel comfortable with, as it's not just some quirky personality trait for others to toy with. Case and point, the Barbarian at your table.
As Quar1on says above, all participants must enjoy the overall experience. I say 'participants' because all Players are participants, but not all participants are Players. You as the DM are participating in the activity also, and therefore if it's not fun for you, you need to call for a timeout and talk to the players. Remind them that they're at your table, and you have certain expectations. Either party can choose to leave if they're dissatisfied, as no D&D is better than bad D&D. If you're all fine with the combat heavy campaign, maybe take a break and play (or create) a more combat heavy experience like a dungeoncrawler. The campaign you're currently running might simply be better suited to a different kind of group.
In the campaign where I'm currently a player the party is sometimes at odds with one another. Even as a political officer I've turned my back to war crimes so not to cause a divide the party ("now I personally am against executing our prisoners, but you could... if I went away to keep watch for stragglers"), so I know what it means to want to assist someone to keep the group together. My group, the Hydra, has all done things we'd rather not do for the sake of group cohesion. The problem is when one person decides to do something astronomically stupid, and in turn ropes everyone else in for the safety of party cohesion. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and just about every D&D game is very much about a chain composed of multiple links tested by multiple threats.
What bothers me is not just that one person is making all of the decisions, but rather it's one person making a single decision every time: combat. And that's fine in a dungeon crawl, but not when you're in a civilised (and potentially guarded) location. Given the party has a history of attacking people (and however little the party wanted to join in, they did join in and don't seem to have attempted diplomacy), I'd say they have an ever increasing bounty on their heads. Few - if any - merchants will want to trade with them. Chapels will rebuke them and their patron gods will likely want them to go on some sort of pilgrimage to atone for their sins. Even criminal elements, at least the smart ones, will avoid being seen with these public killers. Again, as much as I dislike solving player problems with in-game solutions, these are natural consequences that would come about in the world should you choose to continue to play like this.
The Barbarian's not exactly been subtle himself, why should you be? And why does it have to be enemy-singular? Why not a group of guards doing their jobs, mercenaries doing their jobs, troopers on leave getting tired of people disrupting their evening? At least one of those groups will have a mage who will have some crowd control spells like Hold Person. At most as a mercy they're dragged by their heels to go to heal up naturally in a deep dark prison cell or asylum and live out the rest of their days there, as the player rolls up another character who is more appropriate for the campaign.
The enemy you put them up against doesn't need any sort of special modifiers, but they don't need to be a retired level 20 adventurer either. They just need to control the situation.
This could work. Try that if they're not willing to RP the whole Wisdom thing I mentioned above. If they can hold back against the members of their party (which they should because PvP is rarely a good idea), they should be able to hold back against NPCs too. Out of all the suggestions I make, communication is the absolute best one.
I'll begin by saying no, you're not butt-hurt. You had a specific campaign and tone in mind, and players have - actively and passively - have turned it into something else. As much as we like to pontificate about having a Session Zero, it doesn't make you clairvoyant, you can't read the future and know when which player is going to disrupt your game. What you can do, and should do, is have a time-out one-to-one.
Does it need to be a railroad? No. Do as you normally would, and if they die it's because they didn't take any precautions or try to change the outcome. Even retreat is an option, however little players may like it or think it. Forgive the disastrous wording here, but perhaps a TPK is what your campaign needs, and your players are merrily paving the way to one. Maybe then they'll appreciate the tone you were going for, maybe they'll leave, or maybe you'll all have more fun in a dungeoncrawl.
Whatever you decide to go with, I wish you the best of luck. When I say I hope you all have a good time with whatever happens next, I mean I want you to enjoy yourself as well.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
- The Assemblage of Houses, World of Warcraft
Hey this is great, it sounds like you got a group of old school veterans just trying to get back to the roots of D&D of looting dungeons and hitting stuff.
Focus all your energy on creating a giant mega dungeon for them to run.
This is the classic murder hobo conundrum!
I don't know what level the party is, but personally I'd just have them run into a Vampire or such. When they attack unprovoked, kill the offending character. A PC who randomly attacks anything in their path is either asking to be killed (and will find it fun) or feels invulnerable, meaning they're meta-gaming against the perceived world.
Have the lord of a village tell them to behave while they're there. That's likely a red flag to a bull. The people of the village are under his protection. If the PCs ignore his warning, then when they murder someone, have the lord (vampire) turn up and let them understand that they aren't gods.
Have a group of thugs show up saying" we are here to teach you a lesson". These thugs are not level appropriate and will kill the entire party if they are in any way responsible for the chaos being wrought by your players,
Also you definitely do not have to approve any back story you feel will result in the player going rogue 'just because'.
And yes, remind the group that you are in this for the fun of it, and that you can find other things to occupy your time. DM abuse is not something you have to put up with. I have certainly asked my share of players not to come back to my game if they couldn't control their impulses.
You can do this.
Oh yes the deep dungeon crawl. The only thing you find here is death.
Oh, and stop giving experience for those encounters where the disruptive player starts killing for the fun of it.
I like these ideas. Talk it out with the group and talk about the consequences of incessant rampages. If it persists...
I really like the idea of a cure/restoration spell or potion that raises his intelligence some and gets rid of "Phineas Gage-like" lack of restraint. Makes him dumb but playable.
If that doesn't work, bounty hunter and/or mob that annihilates the entire party in a blaze of glory. They may like that anyways!
Velstitzen
I am a 40 something year old physician who DMs for a group of 40 something year old doctors. We play a hybrid game, mostly based on 2nd edition rules with some homebrew and 5E components.
This should be the type of stuff to handle in session zero. As others have noted; it's your fun as well as the DM. Communicate this with your players, and find an option that that works for all involved.
"as you crest a slight rise in the path there becomes visible a pile of leaves and in the middle of that sits a..." ((hey, what's the orc's favorite dessert? something they can't resist gobbling up? cupcake? thanks.)) "...sits a cupcake. delicious and undefended. but, wait! just as you see it, a fox has arrived. the animal looks from your group to the cupcake and back. clearly it is considering taking the cupcake. quick, what do you do?"
the barbarian rushes at the cupcake, obviously, right? are you driven entirely by impulse or not?
pausing even briefly for a perception check would reveal that the very nimble fox is not about to eat the cupcake, they're simply keeping watch for their handler, a (poorly) camouflaged kneeling ranger, who is occupied with rummaging through their rucksack. also, it's plainly obvious that the leaves are (poorly!) obscuring several bear traps and the cupcake is bait for one of them. you are not this ranger's quarry but the rest of the party are almost certainly standing in their net trap if they decide to join the barbarian in hostilities. the ranger will immediately make clear that they are sheriff for the nearby town and call out to a squad of bow-wielding deputies nearby. "stop in the name of the law!"
it's at this point, with everyone twisting in the wind who didn't remain civil, that I as the DM would call a halt and briefly but frankly ask the party (out of character) "are you evil? are you agents of chaos? you have a chance of talking your way out of this just like if it was you in the woods not wanting to go to jail." I would go on to explain that the barbarian might make poor choices but it could be just as entertaining to try to rein him in (and for his player to allow him to be reined in) sometimes. preferably before he drags the party into a boring routine of assaulting innocents and running in circles from the law for little to no XP. the 'low IQ aggression' thing is a negative stereotype that's gone on long enough. you could be living a story of adventure. one which the DM enjoys participating in as much as the players. this hasn't been a lot of fun from behind the DM's shield watching the plot purposely derailed over and over. if everyone's ready to see where this story takes us: show us with your actions! let's see how the gang gets out of this one... preferably before the barbarian ends their adventuring career footless!
...personally, i don't have time to be everyone's counselor and talk to each player separately. and even if i did i'd worry it would turn into discussions of toxicity and disruption that would feel a bit too much like talking behind other people's back. i'd much rather improvise an ambush and get the main bits out in the open, resolve them immediately, and move on down the road. this might seem like papering over the problem rather than addressing it and... yeah, there's elements of that. but at least this makes a stab at retaining group cohesion. i'm more leery about the group falling apart between sessions than during one. shrug.
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Been there dude. In my opinion 3 options.
1: Add consequences. The tavern bard that was playing a song he didn’t like? Welp, that was the kings favorite and is sending all knights to capture him. The guide they killed? A lich in disguise that was keeping order in multiple towns and empires and was even keeping a ancient red dragon asleep.
2: Kill them off. In my opinion one of the worst things to do but it is a possible solution. I recommend the first option so much but if it doesn’t work try #3 then resort to this or kicking them out.
3: Pull them aside. Tell them to cut it out before you do #2 or #1. You can ask to revamp and all the good stuff. If you want to prevent this in all possible campaigns, do a session 0. It helps communicate what the character and player wants while guiding them away from bad things.
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I was literally coming here to mention consequences. If they've murdered that many people - heck, even one person - there should already be warrants out for their arrest. Even if there was no witness - there could have been a witness that they were not aware of who has witnessed one, or several, of these crimes of murder - and has now turned to the local authority to have them captured.
If they want to be murder hobos, show them what a reputation of that does. Need to buy potions? You can't. Turns out your murderous fame has reached this town. Guards are on the look out for you.
Need information? Can't. No one trusts you. Your reputation proceeds you.
Make their lives, as characters, very, very, very difficult for them. Show them there is consequence for their action. Make a story of it.
Bounty hunters are sent after them. Non stop. Because there's a reward.
When they camp for the night to rest after a fight - rest is interrupted by bounty hunters who have been tracking them down.
Have them in the middle of a fight with goblins - when suddenly, arrows come flying from somewhere else.
Bounty hunters, capitalizing on the party being attacked by goblins, are now firing on them as well.
Eventually, they come across a farmer who needs their help (against goblins, orcs, bugbears, whatever) who keep raiding his farms, killing or taking his livestock.
If the party helps him, he offers them a place to safely rest in his barn - where they might finally get a long rest.
If they attack or steal from the farmer, that's their last line of hope.
And ill fame and death haunts them from then on.
If they help the farmer, then the farmer starts talking about them.
And slowly they can regain their reputation.
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It's OK to go to a player and say "hey, I as the DM don't know how to run a game for this type of character. I'm not able to run a story that has no npcs. Could you please adapt to my experience level?"
Some players are used to the DM being all powerful and having all the answers, that they forget that DMing is also a skill. Maybe there's a DM out there that is experienced enough to run a fulfilling story out of a pile of dead NPC's, but not everyone can do that, and the player should know that you're suffering for it.