Looking for some individual feedback on this one and a variety of answers.
According to Xanathar's:
Warlocks are defined by two elements that work in concert to forge their path into this class. The first element is the event or circumstances that led to a warlock’s entering into a pact with a planar entity.
The keyword being forge, meaning beginning. This would assume that any levels gained after that first is from the efforts of the warlock themselves to become stronger, etc.
For context, the warlock in my game is the undead subclass. If their patron is ever taken down by the party, I was toying with the idea of something more than just nothing happening to the Warlock. I've searched online for answers, and it always comes down to two camps:
Nothing happens. The power bestowed upon to the warlock is a pact and a pact cannot be revoked. They retain that power even if the patron dies.
The warlock loses their powers and/or some other kind of detrimental effect.
I am a long ways away from having to make this decision but I wanted to toy with it now. What would you do if they have to kill their patron? Would you amend the rules and say the Warlock does in fact break the pact (somehow) and reverses their powers or would absolutely nothing happen at all?
So the way I usually consider/interpret the Warlock is the patron doesn't so much imbue the warlock with power but initiates the warlock into the secret knowledge of how to wield powers, teach a character to fish vs giving the character fish sorta stuff. It's not so much a "Patron giveth and the patron taketh away" sort of thing as a Palpatine/Vader thing, and it's certainly possible after years of being a disciple the Warlock could well throw the Patron down a shaft into the reactor core.
That's not to say there ain't fun things you can do with a Warlock who was party, so to speak, to the destruction of their patron. First off, taking down a patron is a serious boss level endeavor. I mean, Vader only lasted a few minutes from the toll of destroying Palpatine, though admittedly he did do it one handed, so maybe not that hard.
The only character class affecting thing I'd do with a Warlock whose patron has been destroyed is suspend any further level progressions in the Warlock until the patron lack is resolved. They have no patron initiating them into the further mysteries of the pact, and the nature of the Warlock class means they don't know how to do it alone. They can find a replacement patron of the same sort, or multi class into something else. Tasha's does have some guidance about switching to a totally different subclass, which you could consult if you thought the character could switch from Undead to Fey or Celestial or whatever.
The only character class affecting thing I'd do with a Warlock whose patron has been destroyed is suspend any further level progressions in the Warlock until the patron lack is resolved. They have no patron initiating them into the further mysteries of the pact, and the nature of the Warlock class means they don't know how to do it alone. They can find a replacement patron of the same sort, or multi class into something else. Tasha's does have some guidance about switching to a totally different subclass, which you could consult if you thought the character could switch from Undead to Fey or Celestial or whatever.
I actually really love this idea. I'm not keen on taking everything away but I want something also impactful to happen. Seeking a new patron (and potentially a subclass swap of which I'd allow) would totally be something to explore.
Have them worry about whether they will be able to level up as a Warlock next level. If they choose to do so, take them aside as they see a vision or manifestation of another undead, such as a Lich or a Mummy:
"Ah, you must be >character name<. Our mutual friend >dead patron< left me your soul in his will. Now, what am I going to do with you..."
Make it a roleplay moment introducing a new NPC patron and having the warlock barter for their continuing patronage!
Edit - or, for a less serious campaign, have some sort of board of directors of warlock patronage who are charged with soul reallocation for this very event. Have them pitch themselves in front of a board of dragons (literally and metaphorically, ALA Dragons Den in the UK, where people pitch businesses to wealthy people for investment). There is a patron for each of the subclasses present, and they have to try and win their attention somehow!
Yeah, I see the destruction of a patron being more an opportunity to have a story arc focusing on "what now?" rather than some sort of mechanical sapping of the Warlock's accomplishments to date. Lots of opportunity to further develop (initiate the Warlock into) the world of the patron, as Thoruk suggests allies or rivals of the original patron pop up looking to sweep the warlock into the ally or rival's agent.
Two possible hooks here, 1.) the new guidance actually comes from a great enemy of the patron and the patron is using the Warlock to eradicate any trace of the original patron, including ultimately the warlock themself. 2.) The original patron pulled a Palpatine and their destruction "was always part of the plan" and it turns out the patron has reconstituted themself with new unlimited power on the plane of Exegol or something.
Third option for the showdown, but related to the Palpatine "this was alway my plan" vibe. The patron played the Warlock into bringing their party into direct conflict with the patron as part of the patron's master plan. I know I've been pushing Star Wars, but both Vader and Kylo Ren make a lot of sense as Warlock models.
Lastly, there was a really good video by Dael Kingsmill on YouTube not long back on "pact burner" warlocks, and what to do not so much if a Warlock destroys their patron but if the warlock otherwise betrays the patron (and I guess destroying the patron would be betrayal). I know there's at least one DMsGuild supplement, and one actually endorsed by Kingsmill, that turned the whole idea into a subclass (but they call it something else I think since we're talking about a Warlock breaking their class).
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I’d think if I were a patron type being, and I knew a warlock killed their last patron, I’d be really hesitant to take them on. They’d need to do something extra-special to prove their loyalty. Quite likely I’d just flat out refuse. You know, once a cheater always a cheater kind of thing. So either the warlock needs to multiclass, or do something extraordinary to impress the new boss. Or find some off-brand patron just starting out. Though that would probably only work in some very particular campaigns.
Or you could have the new patron claiming the warlock's killing off of the prior patron was "all part of the Nupatron's plan, mwhahahhaha." In fact the warlock becoming the original patron's warlock in the first place was all part of the plan, mwhahahahhaha. I mean there are some Star Wars continuity explainers that pretty much sum things up that every Palpatine set back was actually "all according to plan." It's up to the table or DM to figure out whether the patron is in fact planning seven dimensional chess or simply suffers a personality disorder where they just cannot admit error or having one's goat got.
I don't think a lot of patrons put a lot of blind faith into the fidelity their warlocks, at least the patrons that come from places where duplicity or double speak or simply being wrapped in a shroud of obscure mystery. Going back to the Sith analogy, I'm imaging many patrons actually plan for the contingency of a warlock stepping out of line. The mechanisms a patron has put in place in the event of a warlock turning on their master being a whole thing that could fit into the consequences here.
Looking for some individual feedback on this one and a variety of answers.
According to Xanathar's:
Warlocks are defined by two elements that work in concert to forge their path into this class. The first element is the event or circumstances that led to a warlock’s entering into a pact with a planar entity.
The keyword being forge, meaning beginning. This would assume that any levels gained after that first is from the efforts of the warlock themselves to become stronger, etc.
For context, the warlock in my game is the undead subclass. If their patron is ever taken down by the party, I was toying with the idea of something more than just nothing happening to the Warlock. I've searched online for answers, and it always comes down to two camps:
Nothing happens. The power bestowed upon to the warlock is a pact and a pact cannot be revoked. They retain that power even if the patron dies.
The warlock loses their powers and/or some other kind of detrimental effect.
I am a long ways away from having to make this decision but I wanted to toy with it now. What would you do if they have to kill their patron? Would you amend the rules and say the Warlock does in fact break the pact (somehow) and reverses their powers or would absolutely nothing happen at all?
You should go for Option 3. If they're going after the Patron of the Warlock, that should be pretty high level stuff. Patrons dishing out powers to others who server them should not be low level. Warn the player that if they kill their patron, they will end up taking their patron's place in the seat of power. So they won't lose anything - but they will essentially become an NPC.
That's pretty drastic, however.
In my head, if the Patron is killed, the well of power from which the Warlock is calling upon is gone - so they'd lose their power.
Similar to if a deity of a cleric was slain - that cleric would technically lose their powers.
This could be a huge and fun turning point in the campaign, too. What happens to the other warlocks of the same patron? Is there a bigger fallout? Do they go after the party for cutting off their power source? Is there an eldritch council that tries to turn the warlock into an undead to fill the power vacuum the patron's death leaves behind? Does the party become infamous for slaying a powerful eldritch being and suddenly have tons of people asking them to kill their patrons to be free of their deals? Do other patrons send deathlock masterminds and other powerful warlocks to hunt the party, just in case they get any ideas? You can have all sorts of consequences that don't even touch the warlock's magic.
The warlock in my campaign ended up killing his patron as the completion of his story arc, though it did happen at the end of the campaign. What we ended up doing was have him fully switch classes to a homebrewed class (of his choice, though similar in function to warlock, and no changing stats) that matched what the character was doing while planning to kill his patron. Basically, his story revolved around building a backup plan so that once his patron was dead, he'd still have his own power to rely on. If you don't want to include homebrew, this could mean switching to paladin or fighter or something, as long as the player agrees and you both are cool with the Powers Go Bye-Bye interpretation of this sort of event.
keep them guessing about the origins of the warlock's power. why decide now? :) let the speculation eat away at them, if they're so inclined (because players are great at digging their own narrative holes if you let them (take notes!!)). after the battle, i'd scatter a number of things around and just see what gets picked up. later (if ever) you can decide which one(s) of them is the source, a source, or the beginnings of a quest to FIND sources of power...
the patron's still-rattling chattering skull with a subtle light from the eye sockets which seems to cause certain minerals in the floor and walls to fluoresce.
the bbeg's spine, stiff and fused together now like an iron rod. flesh stripping beetles fall from somewhere within when you shake it. definitely feels like a conduit of power.
scattered knuckle bones which radiate a divination magic that could be good for soothsaying or even to direct arcane research, rolled like dice.
a jar of what appears to be a negative version of fire flies. they blink a sort of light-eating darkness. sometimes there seem to be more or less of them.
two mirrors, both covered with a velvet cloth. one framed with in ebony, the other in antler. you feel a sort of dread to never allow both to face each other unveiled.
a book of greasy parchment, each page containing part of a different parable, psalm, or morality tale. one page, as you run your fingers across, is felt distinctly on your own back in a distinctly bounded rectangular area. you think back to times you felt a chill precisely there just before your patron contacted you.
etc etc
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First, a disclaimer, that I am new to 5e, so my apologies if I say anything that doesn't make sense with Warlocks or 5e in general.
Second, a lot of great responses above, I recommend not skipping ahead on this thread.
Ok, so here's the meat and potatoes of my post:
I think it may depend on who the patron is, and the details of the pact entered. For example, with vampires there is often a hierarchy, and the dominant vampire can manipulate the others through force of will or whatever game mechanic 5e uses. Traditionally when the dominant vampire is killed, the subservient vampires gains free will and often become the next dominant vampire(s). If then, the patron is also a vampire, then this might be relevant. Similarly, there may be nuances for other planar types as well, devil (likely includes a written contract), demon (The patron may be just as likely to break the pact as the PC), etc...
Setting Star Wars aside, another interesting example is Szas Tam. I have read multiple times about how Szas Tam made a deal with Bane (I'm pretty sure it was Bane). The deal was to give Szas Tam some sort of powerful magic, but in return his soul would belong to Bane after 1000 years. I know that he is a wizard, not a warlock, but warlocks weren't around until recently, and I think this could have been a path for him to multiclass to warlock. If I remember correctly, lore indicates that Szas Tam has been looking for a way out of the downside of the deal, which indicates to me that this may be possible, but not an easy accomplishment. One idea I like, is that in a case like this, the pact may include something preventing Szas Tam from directly attacking/killing Bane, but he may still be able to indirectly accomplish this through others.
Long story short, I think that every pact is different and so it depends on the variables, which leaves it up to the DM to decide what sounds like fun.
Yeah, I see the destruction of a patron being more an opportunity to have a story arc focusing on "what now?" rather than some sort of mechanical sapping of the Warlock's accomplishments to date. Lots of opportunity to further develop (initiate the Warlock into) the world of the patron, as Thoruk suggests allies or rivals of the original patron pop up looking to sweep the warlock into the ally or rival's agent.
Two possible hooks here, 1.) the new guidance actually comes from a great enemy of the patron and the patron is using the Warlock to eradicate any trace of the original patron, including ultimately the warlock themself. 2.) The original patron pulled a Palpatine and their destruction "was always part of the plan" and it turns out the patron has reconstituted themself with new unlimited power on the plane of Exegol or something
The patron is Acererak, and he's lent the Warlock his power for his plans to redeem himself in his attempts to resurrect Vecna ever since his initial betrayal whenever Vecna was his mentor however long ago. So inadvertently, the Warlock will have to make a decision if they want to help bring the Whispered one back into this reality.
I was thinking of the idea of Orcus making a pledge to the Warlock if Acererak is defeated to gain their allegiance. Unfortunately, Orcus would be much more demanding of a patron than Acererak is. Acererak I feel is fairly hands off, whereas Orcus would make threats if the Warlock didn't quite follow. So kind of similar to your plan here'ish!
I’d think if I were a patron type being, and I knew a warlock killed their last patron, I’d be really hesitant to take them on. They’d need to do something extra-special to prove their loyalty. Quite likely I’d just flat out refuse. You know, once a cheater always a cheater kind of thing. So either the warlock needs to multiclass, or do something extraordinary to impress the new boss. Or find some off-brand patron just starting out. Though that would probably only work in some very particular campaigns.
I thought about this, and if they do end up killing their Patron, I feel like the next petitioner (Orcus) would be really controlling because of this. That is if they choose to go down this route, because...
The warlock in my campaign ended up killing his patron as the completion of his story arc, though it did happen at the end of the campaign. What we ended up doing was have him fully switch classes to a homebrewed class (of his choice, though similar in function to warlock, and no changing stats) that matched what the character was doing while planning to kill his patron. Basically, his story revolved around building a backup plan so that once his patron was dead, he'd still have his own power to rely on. If you don't want to include homebrew, this could mean switching to paladin or fighter or something, as long as the player agrees and you both are cool with the Powers Go Bye-Bye interpretation of this sort of event.
I really like this idea. They could swap their powers somewhere else into another type of backup class. They would still have power per se, but there could be some form of homebrewed something to give them that isn't quite a warlock, but isn't quite something else either.
I've seen so many great ideas in this thread. I think this is what I'm probably going to do after taking my own ideas and piecing together the ideas taken from here:
If the source of Warlock power is destroyed, they are going to lose all of their power. And it would be hinted at heavily in the game that nudge nudge this may happen. This would give the player enough of an idea to start thinking of things beforehand.
If they fully commit to aiding Acererak in resurrecting Vecna (I'm re-tooling the Tomb of Anhiliation atropal to essentially be Vecna's essence. Newborn twisted god and all), then the player betrays the party and becomes a more powerful figure at that point and...probably game over.
If they do kill Acererak, they're a lvl 1 character without a class essentially. However, immediately there would be bargains for pacts after seeing this happen. Orcus would be one of them, however other patrons in the Warlock subclass would also petition to be a patron. A celestial type patron could bargain to become their patron (Celestial Subclass re-work) or hey, even an Archfey (Titania for shits and giggles, it could be anything). The player could essentially decide what new "subclass" and new narrative they could take.
tl;dr Kill patron, lose powers, but other patrons would want someone with that kind of willpower and would throw bids out there. So they wouldn't be completely screwed.
There is lore to show that the Supernatural Beings i. Fact grant the powers to Warlocks, and they can be lessened or taken away, by the de powering or death of their patron. If you read the Hook for the Wild Beyond the Witchlight, a Warlock named Madryk asks you to journey to the feywilds because he has lost connection with his Patron Zybilna, and thus lost most of their power. There is another warlock named Kettlesteam that has also lost connection to her. You have to travel to free Zybilna from. Madryk says she is the source of her power.
the description saying Pacts can’t be broken, I don’t is accurate. A pact has specific rules that both parties would have to follow, just like with Cross-Roads demons. If either the Patron or Warlock breaks those, the Patron’s magic would immediately stop empowering the warlock. Just like a Cleric or Paladin who breaks their oath, they would lose access to their powers unless they make amends.
You could allow them keep only basic powers like spells, but not invocations and patron based spells and abilities, or like a previous comment allow them to keep powers, but they can’t take any more levels u til they find a new patron.
The specifics of how a warlock pact works varies but yeah, the most popular view tends to be that the patron empowers you like a magical battery in a similar way to how a clerics gods is often viewed as a magical battery for their spells.
Other options are things like
Revelation, the god or powerful entity reveals hidden truth that unlock power
Authority, the god or other powerful entity rules over a certain thing and gives you power to command that thing as their officer
Mutation, the god or powerful entity changes you some how in a way that grants you power
Material, the god or powerful entity may give you a physical item imbued with power
I also don't think that all powers of a warlock need to come from a single patron or work the same way. For example maybe your undead patron normally reveals spells to you as revelations but as a reward for service assists you in summoning and bullying a devil into granting you it's eyes for the devil sight invocation . Maybe you get spell slots from a potion they made for you and while you have a s supply you need to find out how to make it after they die. In my opinion that kind of thing is more interesting and opens up more option in terms of patrons. If they are using tricks like potions they can really be any one as opposed to just godlike entities and it really gives the warlock a much more distinct character.
the warlocks power comes from the patron. if they die, the magic goes away. however, depending on how long they were a warlock, they basically had a magic pipeline to them. constant exposure to that over the years might make some powers of the warlock be innate
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So in BG3; if Wyll’s patron is slain per the terms of their contract Wyll is also cursed to go to The nine hells and will be reborn a full devil. With his patron being a fiend it would be obvious they would work some shady stuff into the contract.
the warlocks power comes from the patron. if they die, the magic goes away. however, depending on how long they were a warlock, they basically had a magic pipeline to them. constant exposure to that over the years might make some powers of the warlock be innate
Not necessarily true ... the PHB makes clear that there are several different ways warlocks can work and the diety/cleric approach of gaining power directly from the patron is actually the less frequent approach. More often, the warlock learns knowledge from the patron in a master/apprentice style relationship in exchange for services. In this type of pact, losing their patron does not lose the knowledge already gained by the warlock. A DM can choose to run a specific pact/patron however they like since each is unique but RAW, there is no requirement that a warlocks power is, in any way, drawn directly from their patron.
From the PHB:
"Sometimes the relationship between warlock and patron is like that of a cleric and a deity, though the beings that serve as patrons for warlocks are not gods."
"More often, though, the arrangement is similar to that between a master and an apprentice. The warlock learns and grows in power, at the cost of occasional services performed on the patron’s behalf."
"The magic bestowed on a warlock ranges from minor but lasting alterations to the warlock’s being (such as the ability to see in darkness or to read any language) to access to powerful spells."
"Work with your DM to determine how big a part your pact will play in your character’s adventuring career. Your patron’s demands might drive you into adventures, or they might consist entirely of small favors you can do between adventures."
"Some patrons collect warlocks, doling out mystic knowledge relatively freely or boasting of their ability to bind mortals to their will." - in this example, the patron is giving mystic knowledge to the warlock, not directly empowering their abilities.
Basically, as written in the PHB, the nature of the warlock pact is completely up to the DM and player to work out. However, the PHB refers to this relationship being more often a master/apprentice, learned knowledge situation rather than a granted power situation as with a cleric/diety. So both approaches work and it is clear that a warlock does not necessarily draw all of their power from their patron. Most of the time, the warlock acquires knowledge from their patron, much like a wizard, so losing a patron means that they lose access to new knowledge but any knowledge (and abilities) they have already acquired are unaffected.
So in BG3; if Wyll’s patron is slain per the terms of their contract Wyll is also cursed to go to The nine hells and will be reborn a full devil. With his patron being a fiend it would be obvious they would work some shady stuff into the contract.
That mindset can easily be added to most patrons.
The mindset would depend on the patron. A devil is lawful and loves contracts. A demon would have a very different pact. A great old one might not even know that there is a warlock mooching knowledge from them.
"The Great Old One might be unaware of your existence or entirely indifferent to you, but the secrets you have learned allow you to draw your magic from it."
Most patrons would have some sort of agreement underlying the pact but in most cases this could simply be a services in exchange for knowledge quid pro quo ...
"More often, though, the arrangement is similar to that between a master and an apprentice. The warlock learns and grows in power, at the cost of occasional services performed on the patron’s behalf."
Finally, in terms of running a patron, I would strongly recommend against "gotcha" clauses in player character pacts unless the player knows about them in advance. The most likely outcome if a DM tried to spring a surprise on a player forcing the character to be played a certain way or suffer some permanent consequences would be an unhappy player since they are most likely to say that they would never have agreed to such a pact in the first place. Whatever the bounds or requirements of the pact might be, the DM and player should be clear on how it will be run in the game when the character is created so that the player has a reasonable idea what they are agreeing to ...
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Looking for some individual feedback on this one and a variety of answers.
According to Xanathar's:
The keyword being forge, meaning beginning. This would assume that any levels gained after that first is from the efforts of the warlock themselves to become stronger, etc.
For context, the warlock in my game is the undead subclass. If their patron is ever taken down by the party, I was toying with the idea of something more than just nothing happening to the Warlock. I've searched online for answers, and it always comes down to two camps:
I am a long ways away from having to make this decision but I wanted to toy with it now. What would you do if they have to kill their patron? Would you amend the rules and say the Warlock does in fact break the pact (somehow) and reverses their powers or would absolutely nothing happen at all?
So the way I usually consider/interpret the Warlock is the patron doesn't so much imbue the warlock with power but initiates the warlock into the secret knowledge of how to wield powers, teach a character to fish vs giving the character fish sorta stuff. It's not so much a "Patron giveth and the patron taketh away" sort of thing as a Palpatine/Vader thing, and it's certainly possible after years of being a disciple the Warlock could well throw the Patron down a shaft into the reactor core.
That's not to say there ain't fun things you can do with a Warlock who was party, so to speak, to the destruction of their patron. First off, taking down a patron is a serious boss level endeavor. I mean, Vader only lasted a few minutes from the toll of destroying Palpatine, though admittedly he did do it one handed, so maybe not that hard.
The only character class affecting thing I'd do with a Warlock whose patron has been destroyed is suspend any further level progressions in the Warlock until the patron lack is resolved. They have no patron initiating them into the further mysteries of the pact, and the nature of the Warlock class means they don't know how to do it alone. They can find a replacement patron of the same sort, or multi class into something else. Tasha's does have some guidance about switching to a totally different subclass, which you could consult if you thought the character could switch from Undead to Fey or Celestial or whatever.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I actually really love this idea. I'm not keen on taking everything away but I want something also impactful to happen. Seeking a new patron (and potentially a subclass swap of which I'd allow) would totally be something to explore.
Have them worry about whether they will be able to level up as a Warlock next level. If they choose to do so, take them aside as they see a vision or manifestation of another undead, such as a Lich or a Mummy:
"Ah, you must be >character name<. Our mutual friend >dead patron< left me your soul in his will. Now, what am I going to do with you..."
Make it a roleplay moment introducing a new NPC patron and having the warlock barter for their continuing patronage!
Edit - or, for a less serious campaign, have some sort of board of directors of warlock patronage who are charged with soul reallocation for this very event. Have them pitch themselves in front of a board of dragons (literally and metaphorically, ALA Dragons Den in the UK, where people pitch businesses to wealthy people for investment). There is a patron for each of the subclasses present, and they have to try and win their attention somehow!
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Yeah, I see the destruction of a patron being more an opportunity to have a story arc focusing on "what now?" rather than some sort of mechanical sapping of the Warlock's accomplishments to date. Lots of opportunity to further develop (initiate the Warlock into) the world of the patron, as Thoruk suggests allies or rivals of the original patron pop up looking to sweep the warlock into the ally or rival's agent.
Two possible hooks here, 1.) the new guidance actually comes from a great enemy of the patron and the patron is using the Warlock to eradicate any trace of the original patron, including ultimately the warlock themself. 2.) The original patron pulled a Palpatine and their destruction "was always part of the plan" and it turns out the patron has reconstituted themself with new unlimited power on the plane of Exegol or something.
Third option for the showdown, but related to the Palpatine "this was alway my plan" vibe. The patron played the Warlock into bringing their party into direct conflict with the patron as part of the patron's master plan. I know I've been pushing Star Wars, but both Vader and Kylo Ren make a lot of sense as Warlock models.
Lastly, there was a really good video by Dael Kingsmill on YouTube not long back on "pact burner" warlocks, and what to do not so much if a Warlock destroys their patron but if the warlock otherwise betrays the patron (and I guess destroying the patron would be betrayal). I know there's at least one DMsGuild supplement, and one actually endorsed by Kingsmill, that turned the whole idea into a subclass (but they call it something else I think since we're talking about a Warlock breaking their class).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I’d think if I were a patron type being, and I knew a warlock killed their last patron, I’d be really hesitant to take them on. They’d need to do something extra-special to prove their loyalty. Quite likely I’d just flat out refuse. You know, once a cheater always a cheater kind of thing.
So either the warlock needs to multiclass, or do something extraordinary to impress the new boss.
Or find some off-brand patron just starting out. Though that would probably only work in some very particular campaigns.
Or you could have the new patron claiming the warlock's killing off of the prior patron was "all part of the Nupatron's plan, mwhahahhaha." In fact the warlock becoming the original patron's warlock in the first place was all part of the plan, mwhahahahhaha. I mean there are some Star Wars continuity explainers that pretty much sum things up that every Palpatine set back was actually "all according to plan." It's up to the table or DM to figure out whether the patron is in fact planning seven dimensional chess or simply suffers a personality disorder where they just cannot admit error or having one's goat got.
I don't think a lot of patrons put a lot of blind faith into the fidelity their warlocks, at least the patrons that come from places where duplicity or double speak or simply being wrapped in a shroud of obscure mystery. Going back to the Sith analogy, I'm imaging many patrons actually plan for the contingency of a warlock stepping out of line. The mechanisms a patron has put in place in the event of a warlock turning on their master being a whole thing that could fit into the consequences here.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The Warlock BECOMES the patron!
[REDACTED]
You should go for Option 3. If they're going after the Patron of the Warlock, that should be pretty high level stuff. Patrons dishing out powers to others who server them should not be low level. Warn the player that if they kill their patron, they will end up taking their patron's place in the seat of power. So they won't lose anything - but they will essentially become an NPC.
That's pretty drastic, however.
In my head, if the Patron is killed, the well of power from which the Warlock is calling upon is gone - so they'd lose their power.
Similar to if a deity of a cleric was slain - that cleric would technically lose their powers.
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This could be a huge and fun turning point in the campaign, too. What happens to the other warlocks of the same patron? Is there a bigger fallout? Do they go after the party for cutting off their power source? Is there an eldritch council that tries to turn the warlock into an undead to fill the power vacuum the patron's death leaves behind? Does the party become infamous for slaying a powerful eldritch being and suddenly have tons of people asking them to kill their patrons to be free of their deals? Do other patrons send deathlock masterminds and other powerful warlocks to hunt the party, just in case they get any ideas? You can have all sorts of consequences that don't even touch the warlock's magic.
The warlock in my campaign ended up killing his patron as the completion of his story arc, though it did happen at the end of the campaign. What we ended up doing was have him fully switch classes to a homebrewed class (of his choice, though similar in function to warlock, and no changing stats) that matched what the character was doing while planning to kill his patron. Basically, his story revolved around building a backup plan so that once his patron was dead, he'd still have his own power to rely on. If you don't want to include homebrew, this could mean switching to paladin or fighter or something, as long as the player agrees and you both are cool with the Powers Go Bye-Bye interpretation of this sort of event.
:)
keep them guessing about the origins of the warlock's power. why decide now? :) let the speculation eat away at them, if they're so inclined (because players are great at digging their own narrative holes if you let them (take notes!!)). after the battle, i'd scatter a number of things around and just see what gets picked up. later (if ever) you can decide which one(s) of them is the source, a source, or the beginnings of a quest to FIND sources of power...
etc etc
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First, a disclaimer, that I am new to 5e, so my apologies if I say anything that doesn't make sense with Warlocks or 5e in general.
Second, a lot of great responses above, I recommend not skipping ahead on this thread.
Ok, so here's the meat and potatoes of my post:
I think it may depend on who the patron is, and the details of the pact entered. For example, with vampires there is often a hierarchy, and the dominant vampire can manipulate the others through force of will or whatever game mechanic 5e uses. Traditionally when the dominant vampire is killed, the subservient vampires gains free will and often become the next dominant vampire(s). If then, the patron is also a vampire, then this might be relevant. Similarly, there may be nuances for other planar types as well, devil (likely includes a written contract), demon (The patron may be just as likely to break the pact as the PC), etc...
Setting Star Wars aside, another interesting example is Szas Tam. I have read multiple times about how Szas Tam made a deal with Bane (I'm pretty sure it was Bane). The deal was to give Szas Tam some sort of powerful magic, but in return his soul would belong to Bane after 1000 years. I know that he is a wizard, not a warlock, but warlocks weren't around until recently, and I think this could have been a path for him to multiclass to warlock. If I remember correctly, lore indicates that Szas Tam has been looking for a way out of the downside of the deal, which indicates to me that this may be possible, but not an easy accomplishment. One idea I like, is that in a case like this, the pact may include something preventing Szas Tam from directly attacking/killing Bane, but he may still be able to indirectly accomplish this through others.
Long story short, I think that every pact is different and so it depends on the variables, which leaves it up to the DM to decide what sounds like fun.
That is my take anyway.
The patron is Acererak, and he's lent the Warlock his power for his plans to redeem himself in his attempts to resurrect Vecna ever since his initial betrayal whenever Vecna was his mentor however long ago. So inadvertently, the Warlock will have to make a decision if they want to help bring the Whispered one back into this reality.
I was thinking of the idea of Orcus making a pledge to the Warlock if Acererak is defeated to gain their allegiance. Unfortunately, Orcus would be much more demanding of a patron than Acererak is. Acererak I feel is fairly hands off, whereas Orcus would make threats if the Warlock didn't quite follow. So kind of similar to your plan here'ish!
I thought about this, and if they do end up killing their Patron, I feel like the next petitioner (Orcus) would be really controlling because of this. That is if they choose to go down this route, because...
I really like this idea. They could swap their powers somewhere else into another type of backup class. They would still have power per se, but there could be some form of homebrewed something to give them that isn't quite a warlock, but isn't quite something else either.
I've seen so many great ideas in this thread. I think this is what I'm probably going to do after taking my own ideas and piecing together the ideas taken from here:
tl;dr Kill patron, lose powers, but other patrons would want someone with that kind of willpower and would throw bids out there. So they wouldn't be completely screwed.
There is lore to show that the Supernatural Beings i. Fact grant the powers to Warlocks, and they can be lessened or taken away, by the de powering or death of their patron. If you read the Hook for the Wild Beyond the Witchlight, a Warlock named Madryk asks you to journey to the feywilds because he has lost connection with his Patron Zybilna, and thus lost most of their power. There is another warlock named Kettlesteam that has also lost connection to her. You have to travel to free Zybilna from. Madryk says she is the source of her power.
the description saying Pacts can’t be broken, I don’t is accurate. A pact has specific rules that both parties would have to follow, just like with Cross-Roads demons. If either the Patron or Warlock breaks those, the Patron’s magic would immediately stop empowering the warlock. Just like a Cleric or Paladin who breaks their oath, they would lose access to their powers unless they make amends.
You could allow them keep only basic powers like spells, but not invocations and patron based spells and abilities, or like a previous comment allow them to keep powers, but they can’t take any more levels u til they find a new patron.
The specifics of how a warlock pact works varies but yeah, the most popular view tends to be that the patron empowers you like a magical battery in a similar way to how a clerics gods is often viewed as a magical battery for their spells.
Other options are things like
I also don't think that all powers of a warlock need to come from a single patron or work the same way. For example maybe your undead patron normally reveals spells to you as revelations but as a reward for service assists you in summoning and bullying a devil into granting you it's eyes for the devil sight invocation . Maybe you get spell slots from a potion they made for you and while you have a s supply you need to find out how to make it after they die. In my opinion that kind of thing is more interesting and opens up more option in terms of patrons. If they are using tricks like potions they can really be any one as opposed to just godlike entities and it really gives the warlock a much more distinct character.
the warlocks power comes from the patron. if they die, the magic goes away. however, depending on how long they were a warlock, they basically had a magic pipeline to them. constant exposure to that over the years might make some powers of the warlock be innate
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So in BG3; if Wyll’s patron is slain per the terms of their contract Wyll is also cursed to go to The nine hells and will be reborn a full devil. With his patron being a fiend it would be obvious they would work some shady stuff into the contract.
That mindset can easily be added to most patrons.
Not necessarily true ... the PHB makes clear that there are several different ways warlocks can work and the diety/cleric approach of gaining power directly from the patron is actually the less frequent approach. More often, the warlock learns knowledge from the patron in a master/apprentice style relationship in exchange for services. In this type of pact, losing their patron does not lose the knowledge already gained by the warlock. A DM can choose to run a specific pact/patron however they like since each is unique but RAW, there is no requirement that a warlocks power is, in any way, drawn directly from their patron.
From the PHB:
"Sometimes the relationship between warlock and patron is like that of a cleric and a deity, though the beings that serve as patrons for warlocks are not gods."
"More often, though, the arrangement is similar to that between a master and an apprentice. The warlock learns and grows in power, at the cost of occasional services performed on the patron’s behalf."
"The magic bestowed on a warlock ranges from minor but lasting alterations to the warlock’s being (such as the ability to see in darkness or to read any language) to access to powerful spells."
"Work with your DM to determine how big a part your pact will play in your character’s adventuring career. Your patron’s demands might drive you into adventures, or they might consist entirely of small favors you can do between adventures."
"Some patrons collect warlocks, doling out mystic knowledge relatively freely or boasting of their ability to bind mortals to their will." - in this example, the patron is giving mystic knowledge to the warlock, not directly empowering their abilities.
Basically, as written in the PHB, the nature of the warlock pact is completely up to the DM and player to work out. However, the PHB refers to this relationship being more often a master/apprentice, learned knowledge situation rather than a granted power situation as with a cleric/diety. So both approaches work and it is clear that a warlock does not necessarily draw all of their power from their patron. Most of the time, the warlock acquires knowledge from their patron, much like a wizard, so losing a patron means that they lose access to new knowledge but any knowledge (and abilities) they have already acquired are unaffected.
The mindset would depend on the patron. A devil is lawful and loves contracts. A demon would have a very different pact. A great old one might not even know that there is a warlock mooching knowledge from them.
"The Great Old One might be unaware of your existence or entirely indifferent to you, but the secrets you have learned allow you to draw your magic from it."
Most patrons would have some sort of agreement underlying the pact but in most cases this could simply be a services in exchange for knowledge quid pro quo ...
"More often, though, the arrangement is similar to that between a master and an apprentice. The warlock learns and grows in power, at the cost of occasional services performed on the patron’s behalf."
Finally, in terms of running a patron, I would strongly recommend against "gotcha" clauses in player character pacts unless the player knows about them in advance. The most likely outcome if a DM tried to spring a surprise on a player forcing the character to be played a certain way or suffer some permanent consequences would be an unhappy player since they are most likely to say that they would never have agreed to such a pact in the first place. Whatever the bounds or requirements of the pact might be, the DM and player should be clear on how it will be run in the game when the character is created so that the player has a reasonable idea what they are agreeing to ...