Fights usually only involve two sides: the players and the monsters. But what if it's more complicated than that? Let's say the players find themselves in the middle of two warring factions, or some of their enemies are hostile to each other, or they're in a battle royale where only the last man standing wins. I've already done the latter and my solution was to make all participants, players and monsters, equal in strength. For the other two, I'm not really sure if the solutions I have in mind would work in practice. I'll describe two scenarios for use as examples.
Scenario #1
The players come across two warring factions who are also hostile to the players. No truce is possible between any of the three sides of the conflict. Each side knows that only one team can survive, so no one is going to let one side remain in the sidelines while the other two factions fight each other. Once the first faction is wiped out, the two remaining factions must fight each other. This is why it's best to not let one enemy team become too much stronger than the other. With these facts in mind, I believe that simply dividing both the number of monsters and their XP by two to calculate the CR should work. My reasoning is that the players are effectively sharing the XP with half of the monsters.
Let's say for example that I want to make a deadly encounter for four level 5 players, the total number of adjusted XP needs to be at least 4400. The first enemy faction consists of one berbalang, one grell, two chokers, and three gazers. The second enemy faction consists of one spined devil, two imps, and two bearded devils. That makes a total of 12 monsters worth 4100 XP. Once divided by two, we get 6 monsters worth 2050 XP, or 4100 XP after multiplier. This counts as a hard (almost deadly) encounter, which is interesting considering both factions count as deadly encounters when faced separately.
Scenario #2
The players encounter a group of monsters. For some reason, two of the monsters are infighting. They'll defend themselves against the players, but will prioritize attacking each other if the players leave them alone. Once one of the infighting monsters is defeated, the remaining one goes all out against the players. With these facts in mind, I believe the weakest of the two infighting monsters shouldn't count toward the CR and that half of its XP should be subtracted from the total. My reasoning is that the strongest of the infighting monsters is weakened, but the magnitude of which depends on the strength of its opponent.
Let's say for example that I want to make a deadly encounter for four level 6 players, the total number of adjusted XP needs to be at least 5600. The monsters consist of two quasits, one shadow demon, one barlgura, and one vrock; the last two are infighting. Once the barlgura is taken out of the equation and half its XP subtracted from the total, that makes a total of 4 monsters worth 2900 XP, or 5800 XP after multiplier. This counts as a deadly encounter as intended.
Please tell me if you think that my methods are balanced. Feel free to propose your own if you think you have a better one. Tested methods hold more weight.
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Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
The simple way of modeling the first situation is to treat the enemies as consisting of two groups: the ones that are attacking the PCs, and the ones that are attacking each other. If the ones attacking each other are equal strength, you can then just remove them from the fight (assuming they cancel out) and compute difficulty based on the remaining monsters. Your way of calculation is consistent with assuming that half of each group fights the other group, the other half of each group is attacking the PCs.
In the second scenario, I would subtract the xp value of the first monster from the xp value of the remaining monsters, and not count it against encounter difficulty; if the PCs can attack the remaining monsters without the first monster changing its behavior, I would also treat it as an ally of the PCs. The design of adjusted xp appears to be based on expected damage done, so in general subtracting will work out.
In the second scenario, I would subtract the xp value of the first monster from the xp value of the remaining monsters, and not count it against encounter difficulty; if the PCs can attack the remaining monsters without the first monster changing its behavior, I would also treat it as an ally of the PCs. The design of adjusted xp appears to be based on expected damage done, so in general subtracting will work out.
The infighting monsters are indeed completely ignoring the players unless the latter choose to attack them. By default, none of the infighting monsters are hostile to the players. They only become hostile to them if one of two things is true: a) they are attacked by the players or b) the monster they're fighting is defeated. In the first case, they only become hostile to the player(s) who attacked them, but they will still remain hostile to the other monster. As for treating the weaker of the two infighting monsters as an ally instead of decreasing the XP of the stronger one, I like the idea.
According to XGE, a CR 5 monster is equivalent to a level 12 player. Once I add such an ally, the treshold for a deadly encounter becomes 10,100 XP. The encounter now consists of 4 monsters worth 3800 XP, or 7600 XP after multiplier. This counts as a hard encounter, so your method says it's easier than mine. Once I give the ally its share of the XP, the players also get slightly more XP: 3040 instead of 2900. I believe your method makes more sense, as mine is more arbitrary when it comes to the already established rules.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
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Fights usually only involve two sides: the players and the monsters. But what if it's more complicated than that? Let's say the players find themselves in the middle of two warring factions, or some of their enemies are hostile to each other, or they're in a battle royale where only the last man standing wins. I've already done the latter and my solution was to make all participants, players and monsters, equal in strength. For the other two, I'm not really sure if the solutions I have in mind would work in practice. I'll describe two scenarios for use as examples.
Scenario #1
The players come across two warring factions who are also hostile to the players. No truce is possible between any of the three sides of the conflict. Each side knows that only one team can survive, so no one is going to let one side remain in the sidelines while the other two factions fight each other. Once the first faction is wiped out, the two remaining factions must fight each other. This is why it's best to not let one enemy team become too much stronger than the other. With these facts in mind, I believe that simply dividing both the number of monsters and their XP by two to calculate the CR should work. My reasoning is that the players are effectively sharing the XP with half of the monsters.
Let's say for example that I want to make a deadly encounter for four level 5 players, the total number of adjusted XP needs to be at least 4400. The first enemy faction consists of one berbalang, one grell, two chokers, and three gazers. The second enemy faction consists of one spined devil, two imps, and two bearded devils. That makes a total of 12 monsters worth 4100 XP. Once divided by two, we get 6 monsters worth 2050 XP, or 4100 XP after multiplier. This counts as a hard (almost deadly) encounter, which is interesting considering both factions count as deadly encounters when faced separately.
Scenario #2
The players encounter a group of monsters. For some reason, two of the monsters are infighting. They'll defend themselves against the players, but will prioritize attacking each other if the players leave them alone. Once one of the infighting monsters is defeated, the remaining one goes all out against the players. With these facts in mind, I believe the weakest of the two infighting monsters shouldn't count toward the CR and that half of its XP should be subtracted from the total. My reasoning is that the strongest of the infighting monsters is weakened, but the magnitude of which depends on the strength of its opponent.
Let's say for example that I want to make a deadly encounter for four level 6 players, the total number of adjusted XP needs to be at least 5600. The monsters consist of two quasits, one shadow demon, one barlgura, and one vrock; the last two are infighting. Once the barlgura is taken out of the equation and half its XP subtracted from the total, that makes a total of 4 monsters worth 2900 XP, or 5800 XP after multiplier. This counts as a deadly encounter as intended.
Please tell me if you think that my methods are balanced. Feel free to propose your own if you think you have a better one. Tested methods hold more weight.
Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
You could assume that both monster sides will reduce the other side to half their HP, so adjust CR downwards accordingly.
The simple way of modeling the first situation is to treat the enemies as consisting of two groups: the ones that are attacking the PCs, and the ones that are attacking each other. If the ones attacking each other are equal strength, you can then just remove them from the fight (assuming they cancel out) and compute difficulty based on the remaining monsters. Your way of calculation is consistent with assuming that half of each group fights the other group, the other half of each group is attacking the PCs.
In the second scenario, I would subtract the xp value of the first monster from the xp value of the remaining monsters, and not count it against encounter difficulty; if the PCs can attack the remaining monsters without the first monster changing its behavior, I would also treat it as an ally of the PCs. The design of adjusted xp appears to be based on expected damage done, so in general subtracting will work out.
The infighting monsters are indeed completely ignoring the players unless the latter choose to attack them. By default, none of the infighting monsters are hostile to the players. They only become hostile to them if one of two things is true: a) they are attacked by the players or b) the monster they're fighting is defeated. In the first case, they only become hostile to the player(s) who attacked them, but they will still remain hostile to the other monster. As for treating the weaker of the two infighting monsters as an ally instead of decreasing the XP of the stronger one, I like the idea.
According to XGE, a CR 5 monster is equivalent to a level 12 player. Once I add such an ally, the treshold for a deadly encounter becomes 10,100 XP. The encounter now consists of 4 monsters worth 3800 XP, or 7600 XP after multiplier. This counts as a hard encounter, so your method says it's easier than mine. Once I give the ally its share of the XP, the players also get slightly more XP: 3040 instead of 2900. I believe your method makes more sense, as mine is more arbitrary when it comes to the already established rules.
Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player