Hi all! My group is going to a glacier in the next part of the campaign, fighting all sorts of chilly foes, chiefly a white dragon who likes to freeze treasures and victims in ice. Her prize possession is a crystal dragon displayed in her lair like a Carbonite Han Solo. The heroes are looking to free the crystal dragon and bring her back with a rod of resurrection.
I'm wondering how DMs would rule the melting ice part. Would you handwave it with a cinematic flourish? "You strike the dragon with a massive fireball, and in seconds its corpse is freed from its icy prison. Get that rod working..." Or would you calculate out how long it would actually take to melt that much ice?
For those of you who would, how long do you think it would take? I've been trying to figure it out myself, but the closest real world analogue I can find is how fast an ice sculpture melts at certain temperatures. Does anyone know of any resources to determine how fast a victim frozen in ice can be safely freed?
Decide how you intend the scene to play out if they haven't got al lday - is this occurring whilst the dragon is fighting them? have they snuck in, or lured the dragon away? And do you want the dragon to reappear in a climactic fight after the other dragon is freed?
Don't think in terms of physics, think in terms of story beats. If the white dragon has been lured off for an hour, then make it take 50 minutes to thaw the crystal dragon. Or, let it take 10 minutes, giving them plenty of time to escape - if you think their tactics deserve a reward!
I'm mostly asking about physics so I can provide realistic responses to the players' choices. The resurrection will take an hour regardless of the thaw time, and the party might try and sneak in to free the crystal dragon to aid in the fight, so I wanted to see what would be a reasonable time frame.
I can always use the cinematic, story beat method, as you suggest, but I like to look into the physics to inform those beats. I guess I'm looking at the plot point from the opposite direction. My party likes to plan these things out, and the forge cleric would definitely be calculating her options. Her player enjoys crunch, so I could present it as a puzzle: how much fire damage to inflict on the ice until the resurrection can be applied, or something like that.
Well, fire damage isn't the only option - there's also Prestidigitation to heat 1 cubic foot of material, which would melt the ice, so work out the size of the dragon and that many cubic feet x 6 seconds would do it.
Otherwise the presence of a Bonfire from the bonfire spell, or the druid cantrip that lets you light campfires, should have decent progress in melting it. I suspect IRL it would take over an hour of melting, depending on whether you can surround the ice or if it's frozen into a wall.
What size dragon are we talking about? That would be a big factor. And what is the party likely to use. Are we talking produce flame, or wall of fire, or is it just the fighter chiseling away with his war hammer? How thick is the layer of ice?
Either way, we’re talking about magical fire and magical ice, I’m not sure normal rules of chemistry would apply.
I might do something like decide how long it takes to clear one square and then go with how many squares it occupies, so a bigger, older dragon would take longer. Also, what’s going to happen with all the water this creates?
Probably, I’d go at this from the story end. Firstly, do I want them to be able to get this done and enlist the help of the crystal dragon. If not, it’s really easy to say it would take them a at least a day to thaw this ice cube. If I want them to be able to, I’d probably just kind of wing it. If they come up with a clever idea for quick thawing, I’d let them pull it off. If the idea is to hold torches near it, it’s not going to work in time.
Could they, potentially, just free the head? Enough so it could breathe, then resurrect, then let the dragon just brute force its own way out and shatter the ice from the inside. Or it could change shape into something smaller, and leave a dragon-shaped shell of ice.
The easiest way seems to me to create a hole big enough to touch the dragon and then teleport it out. This leaves the ice block there for the white dragon to clearly have a reminder of its defeat.
That's a creative idea! I also thought that they could melt enough ice to reach the dragon's corpse, resurrect it inside the ice, then it can teleport out by itself (crystal dragons have that ability), but that may not be learned by the players, so they'll do it themselves.
Oh, and the white dragon may not survive long enough to need reminders of its defeat... ;)
Mechanically speaking I treat 'turned to ice' as petrified so they need to cast greater restoration; safely melting a frozen creature is pretty much cinematic.
Yikes! The danger of looking at replies on my phone is not seeing all of the responses, just the latest one. Let me address the replies I missed.
Well, fire damage isn't the only option - there's also Prestidigitation to heat 1 cubic foot of material, which would melt the ice, so work out the size of the dragon and that many cubic feet x 6 seconds would do it.
Well, the dragon is a Huge creature, which has a 15 x 15 ft. "footprint", that's a good starting point for its dimensions. For simplicity's sake, if I calculate a 15 ft. tall cylinder, and estimate that the dragon's corpse occupies around half of that space, that should give me a good ballpark of how much ice the party would be dealing with:
15 ft. diameter x pi = 47.12 ft^2; that x 15 ft. height = 706.86 ft^3 volume. Halve that to estimate how much the dragon displaces, and the PCs are looking at 353.43 ft.^3 of ice around the dragon, as a ballpark number. Feel free to check my math; it's not my strong suit.
Now using prestidigitation to melt this a cubic foot at a time, the players are looking at: volume x 6 seconds = 2,120.58 seconds, which is 35.34 minutes, or just over half an hour to melt all that ice. If the players choose to only melt half of the ice-- enough to free the dragon-- they'd be done in under 15 minutes.
Otherwise the presence of a Bonfire from the bonfire spell, or the druid cantrip that lets you light campfires...
The create bonfire cantrip can only be put on the ground, having the most effect on the ice nearest it. Control flames can move that fire around, but it needs fuel to be spread like that. Fire bolt might be more precise, but it comes and goes in a round, so you're sacrificing the longevity of the other cantrips.
A much more efficient spell would probably be heat metal. It lasts a minute and places that red hot temperature found within a fire directly against the ice, and can effectively slice into the ice and chop away chunks at a time if you cast it on a sword or something.
In any case, it seems like any such method would likely be faster than the prestidigitation method, and therefore "cinematically fast", and able to wave away as negligible to the plot, at least compared to how long resurrection will take.
Also, what’s going to happen with all the water this creates?
Well, it depends on the method, I think. Prestidigitation "warms" the ice, which I as a DM would equate with melting it. That water's gonna go somewhere, and given the frigid environment, it will likely refreeze as slick, difficult terrain. :)
Any of the more flamboyant methods (see what I did there?) wouldn't melt the ice, but sublimate it instead. That water vapor will rise into the air until it drops to freezing again (and rather quickly, too) so it will start snowing back down. Depending on existing wind conditions, it could actually be quite beautiful...
Could they, potentially, just free the head? Enough so it could breathe, then resurrect, then let the dragon just brute force its own way out and shatter the ice from the inside. Or it could change shape into something smaller, and leave a dragon-shaped shell of ice.
The dragon will certainly be capable of all these things once resurrected, or they could use their own resources to teleport it out themselves. The druid is also a fan of [Tooltip Not Found]. The dragon will be rolling things with a -4 penalty, and whoever casts it will no longer be casting spells and making rolls with disadvantage. If they can manage a long rest before the big showdown, then the dragon will have a -3 penalty and the caster will be back to normal, but the odds of managing that will be low.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone! It's these kinds of questions and insight that really help me to figure out the logistics of something like this.
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Hi all! My group is going to a glacier in the next part of the campaign, fighting all sorts of chilly foes, chiefly a white dragon who likes to freeze treasures and victims in ice. Her prize possession is a crystal dragon displayed in her lair like a Carbonite Han Solo. The heroes are looking to free the crystal dragon and bring her back with a rod of resurrection.
I'm wondering how DMs would rule the melting ice part. Would you handwave it with a cinematic flourish? "You strike the dragon with a massive fireball, and in seconds its corpse is freed from its icy prison. Get that rod working..." Or would you calculate out how long it would actually take to melt that much ice?
For those of you who would, how long do you think it would take? I've been trying to figure it out myself, but the closest real world analogue I can find is how fast an ice sculpture melts at certain temperatures. Does anyone know of any resources to determine how fast a victim frozen in ice can be safely freed?
Decide how you intend the scene to play out if they haven't got al lday - is this occurring whilst the dragon is fighting them? have they snuck in, or lured the dragon away? And do you want the dragon to reappear in a climactic fight after the other dragon is freed?
Don't think in terms of physics, think in terms of story beats. If the white dragon has been lured off for an hour, then make it take 50 minutes to thaw the crystal dragon. Or, let it take 10 minutes, giving them plenty of time to escape - if you think their tactics deserve a reward!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
I'm mostly asking about physics so I can provide realistic responses to the players' choices. The resurrection will take an hour regardless of the thaw time, and the party might try and sneak in to free the crystal dragon to aid in the fight, so I wanted to see what would be a reasonable time frame.
I can always use the cinematic, story beat method, as you suggest, but I like to look into the physics to inform those beats. I guess I'm looking at the plot point from the opposite direction. My party likes to plan these things out, and the forge cleric would definitely be calculating her options. Her player enjoys crunch, so I could present it as a puzzle: how much fire damage to inflict on the ice until the resurrection can be applied, or something like that.
Well, fire damage isn't the only option - there's also Prestidigitation to heat 1 cubic foot of material, which would melt the ice, so work out the size of the dragon and that many cubic feet x 6 seconds would do it.
Otherwise the presence of a Bonfire from the bonfire spell, or the druid cantrip that lets you light campfires, should have decent progress in melting it. I suspect IRL it would take over an hour of melting, depending on whether you can surround the ice or if it's frozen into a wall.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
What size dragon are we talking about? That would be a big factor. And what is the party likely to use. Are we talking produce flame, or wall of fire, or is it just the fighter chiseling away with his war hammer? How thick is the layer of ice?
Either way, we’re talking about magical fire and magical ice, I’m not sure normal rules of chemistry would apply.
I might do something like decide how long it takes to clear one square and then go with how many squares it occupies, so a bigger, older dragon would take longer.
Also, what’s going to happen with all the water this creates?
Probably, I’d go at this from the story end. Firstly, do I want them to be able to get this done and enlist the help of the crystal dragon. If not, it’s really easy to say it would take them a at least a day to thaw this ice cube. If I want them to be able to, I’d probably just kind of wing it. If they come up with a clever idea for quick thawing, I’d let them pull it off. If the idea is to hold torches near it, it’s not going to work in time.
Could they, potentially, just free the head? Enough so it could breathe, then resurrect, then let the dragon just brute force its own way out and shatter the ice from the inside. Or it could change shape into something smaller, and leave a dragon-shaped shell of ice.
The easiest way seems to me to create a hole big enough to touch the dragon and then teleport it out. This leaves the ice block there for the white dragon to clearly have a reminder of its defeat.
That's a creative idea! I also thought that they could melt enough ice to reach the dragon's corpse, resurrect it inside the ice, then it can teleport out by itself (crystal dragons have that ability), but that may not be learned by the players, so they'll do it themselves.
Oh, and the white dragon may not survive long enough to need reminders of its defeat... ;)
Mechanically speaking I treat 'turned to ice' as petrified so they need to cast greater restoration; safely melting a frozen creature is pretty much cinematic.
Yikes! The danger of looking at replies on my phone is not seeing all of the responses, just the latest one. Let me address the replies I missed.
Well, the dragon is a Huge creature, which has a 15 x 15 ft. "footprint", that's a good starting point for its dimensions. For simplicity's sake, if I calculate a 15 ft. tall cylinder, and estimate that the dragon's corpse occupies around half of that space, that should give me a good ballpark of how much ice the party would be dealing with:
15 ft. diameter x pi = 47.12 ft^2; that x 15 ft. height = 706.86 ft^3 volume. Halve that to estimate how much the dragon displaces, and the PCs are looking at 353.43 ft.^3 of ice around the dragon, as a ballpark number. Feel free to check my math; it's not my strong suit.
Now using prestidigitation to melt this a cubic foot at a time, the players are looking at: volume x 6 seconds = 2,120.58 seconds, which is 35.34 minutes, or just over half an hour to melt all that ice. If the players choose to only melt half of the ice-- enough to free the dragon-- they'd be done in under 15 minutes.
The create bonfire cantrip can only be put on the ground, having the most effect on the ice nearest it. Control flames can move that fire around, but it needs fuel to be spread like that. Fire bolt might be more precise, but it comes and goes in a round, so you're sacrificing the longevity of the other cantrips.
A much more efficient spell would probably be heat metal. It lasts a minute and places that red hot temperature found within a fire directly against the ice, and can effectively slice into the ice and chop away chunks at a time if you cast it on a sword or something.
In any case, it seems like any such method would likely be faster than the prestidigitation method, and therefore "cinematically fast", and able to wave away as negligible to the plot, at least compared to how long resurrection will take.
Well, it depends on the method, I think. Prestidigitation "warms" the ice, which I as a DM would equate with melting it. That water's gonna go somewhere, and given the frigid environment, it will likely refreeze as slick, difficult terrain. :)
Any of the more flamboyant methods (see what I did there?) wouldn't melt the ice, but sublimate it instead. That water vapor will rise into the air until it drops to freezing again (and rather quickly, too) so it will start snowing back down. Depending on existing wind conditions, it could actually be quite beautiful...
The dragon will certainly be capable of all these things once resurrected, or they could use their own resources to teleport it out themselves. The druid is also a fan of [Tooltip Not Found]. The dragon will be rolling things with a -4 penalty, and whoever casts it will no longer be casting spells and making rolls with disadvantage. If they can manage a long rest before the big showdown, then the dragon will have a -3 penalty and the caster will be back to normal, but the odds of managing that will be low.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone! It's these kinds of questions and insight that really help me to figure out the logistics of something like this.