one of my player decided to be a druid and therefore will be able to use Wild Shape.
In the description of this feature, we can read
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before.
My player will start at level 3, so probably went through 2-3 adventures already.
My question is : do you limit the list of beast according to what the character have seen before? For example, doesn't make sense to let her use Giant Octobus if the character never been on sea.
My second question is : how do you limit the list according to this detail ? Which beasts would you remove from the list ?
On page 302 of the DMG is a list of monsters (including beasts) by the enviroment found in so a reasonable way to make a list of eligable wild shape forms for your player would be to have them pick one or more enviroments that align with their backstory and just compile the beasts from those lists. They aren't totally comprehensive so you might have to add a couple of really ubiquitous creatures as well (for example the CR 0 spider isn't in any of those lists) but should at least give you a good basis.
The way I do this is to ask where the Druid comes from. In my homebrew world, I have one entire region that is just forest (as much of England would have been early in history). As such, if the character came from any settlements therein, they are limited to creatures who come from 'Forest' when filtering the Monster Manual here on D&D beyond. If they're a druid who hails from say a village on the coast, well they'll sort by 'Coastal'. I'll often top this list up with 'obvious' creaturs that would have been encountered (rat, cat, dog, mule etc). Make sure that this gets recorded on the extras section of the player's character sheet, this gives them really quick access to those stat blocks. If WotC would actually make those rollable (easily possible) here on DDB it would make druidic stuff so much quicker and easier!
As they adventure and encounter new creatures, my ruling has actually been that they either need to see and study the creature up close, or need to encounter it in combat to understand the creature's capabilities and utilise it. Though I actually expand that out to certain other creatures, like some animal like abberations to make it a bit more interesting.
1 . To do this, you go onto the extras tab of the character sheet if using DDB for character sheets (I highly recommend this from druids in particular). 2. Click 'Manage Extras' 3. Select 'Wild Shape' from the 'Add an Extra' drop down list. 4. Type the environment (Arctic, Coastal, Desert, Forest, Grassland, Hill, Mountain, Swamp, Underdark, Underwater, Urban). 5. Set the challenge rating of '0' - '2' 6. Click the green 'add' button next to each of the creatures you think is reasonable for the druid to have encountered.
In doing this, the Druid gets a populated list that is really quick to flick through and get the stat block of their wildshape. In one of the games I DM, my party's druid has access to 28 wildshape forms in this way (plus a bonus Guard Drake form for reasons). Once set up, you or the Druid can add each new creature that they encounter as the adventure progresses.
If you're looking for a slightly different way of doing it, I've played in a party where I saw a really cool rule in effect. Druids get two wildshape forms per level. In short, it's not just based off what creatures that the Druid has encountered or seen, it forces the druid to connect with the wildshapes a bit more. Maybe for example they pick Owl and Mastiff as their first two shapes. They've done so because these were childhood pets. At the next level, maybe the party encountered a playful fox that someone had a conversation with...the druid decides that the Fox and a Spider would be useful forms. So at level 1 they have two forms, level 2 four forms, level 3 six forms and so on.
The really cool effect of this is actually that it minimises the overwhelming options that result in the druid just picking the same wildshape over and over again, and also means that each wildshape form has the option to mean something to both the druid and the party at large.
I think I have a - totally subjective and arbitrary - 'stuff that's reasonably normal' is fine, while 'stuff that's exotic, rare or just annoying isn't'. Based on this, if a player wanted to flop around on dry land as a giant octupus, I'd laugh but allow it (to my mind, an octopus has zero combat ability on land). But if a player wants to be some sort of raptor, or say a rancor (from Starwars) thats both hugely exotic and annoying, and not about to happen anytime soon.
But to be more clear: If the player wanted to wildshape into a gorilla, but had never left the 'nordics', I'd likely allow it. I'd likely work with the player to make some sort of white snow ape with the same stats, so as to explain the PC's familiarity with it.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
My question is : do you limit the list of beast according to what the character have seen before?
My second question is : how do you limit the list according to this detail ? Which beasts would you remove from the list
Yes, I allow the players to choose 4 starting creatures based on the lists provided in XG. I further divide Forest and Grassland into temperate and tropical climates, and the player can only choose one. Then, I let the player learn new shapes like I do dropping spell scrolls for a wizard.
I think I have a - totally subjective and arbitrary - 'stuff that's reasonably normal' is fine, while 'stuff that's exotic, rare or just annoying isn't'. Based on this, if a player wanted to flop around on dry land as a giant octupus, I'd laugh but allow it (to my mind, an octopus has zero combat ability on land). But if a player wants to be some sort of raptor, or say a rancor (from Starwars) thats both hugely exotic and annoying, and not about to happen anytime soon.
But to be more clear: If the player wanted to wildshape into a gorilla, but had never left the 'nordics', I'd likely allow it. I'd likely work with the player to make some sort of white snow ape with the same stats, so as to explain the PC's familiarity with it.
I like that approach even if it is subjective and arbitrary. I worry though that I'd have problems saying no to the player when they want something they think is really cool.
If you want to limit Wild Shape you can either provide a list of beasts seen before or randomly determine if any given beast was ever seen when the Druid ask for one specifically.
I like that approach even if it is subjective and arbitrary. I worry though that I'd have problems saying no to the player when they want something they think is really cool.
Same here - that's why I acknowledge how cool it is, then explain, carefully, specifically, my concerns, and try to come up with something just as cool, but less powerful.
Like:
Druid: Can I wildshape into a Yeti (if we assumed that wasn't off for all manner of reasons)?
GM: Well no - but we could make a white arctic ape (with the stats of an ape, that is), call it a Yeti - and you could wildshape into that.
Not a perfect example, but I hope my point shines through the nonsense =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
When I discussed with my DM what wild shapes I could turn into before the start of a campaign, (he already had his backstory, in his world races teneded to live apart so being a tortle essentially said which part of the world I was originally from and by background was sailor (asa lover of the see he became a sailor and the navigator tought him about the stars leading to him becomming a stars druid). What was agreed was I would give him a list of the beasts I would like ot turn into and thought migth be appropriate (he gave me somew guidlines like forest, coastal and ocean would generally be OK and I would have been in ports where I would see dogs and horses etc but dinosaurs would be out) He would then set up the creatures in Roll 20 for me to play or let me know it would not be available. At level 4 and 8 I gave him lists for the extra creatures I would like as I could go to higher CR and gain a swim / fly speed.
At level 8 I have just under 30 beasts I can wild shape into which covers most eventualities.
I would also decide from the outset how polymorph and wildshape will interact and let the druid know. RAW when they reach level 7 a druid can polymorph his friends into beasts he had previously not seen (and maybe not know the existance of) and hence gain the ability to wild shape into them In my gane it was agreed that the "that you have seen before" also applies to polymorph.
I am blessed with players who are fairly honest, so when they say something exotic for this, I will (if I feel I need to) ask if they would have seen one before, and if so where.
This does a couple of things - one, it reminds them of the limit without me stamping on them, and second it builds their story up in the background - you saw snow-apes in the mountains, ok, that means you travelled to the mountains, this may come up in the future.
If they start going to too many extremes (IE listing a fifth distinct biome that the 20-year-old character has seen) then I will say politely that the ycan't have seen everything in the world, and list the biomes they have already mentioned, which will make them pick one from there instead. I impose no in-game penalties or anything because their character will know what they have seen!
I usually go with why be restrictive and spoil the player's fun? There are a relatively small selection of really useful wildshape forms, especially for a moon druid. The only exception I might make to that would be dinosaurs. If the world doesn't have dinosaurs or there is no chance that the druid would have ever encountered a dinosaur then they wouldn't have that option.
However, after some time of adventure, seeing beasts in a traveling menagerie or having visited different biomes, the druid is likely to have access to a very long list of creatures. In addition, discovering wild shapes would be something that every druid would be doing all the time so unless there is some reason a druid would never have any chance to have encountered a creature then I tend to lean towards allowing them (unless the player actually enjoys the book keeping then I will support them by giving them creatures they can see as part of everyday adventuring.
I like to use it as a RP and back story development opportunity. I start off with allowing anything they would reasonably have been able to see growing up/early adventures based on their back story. Then for rarer things I make them justify exactly how/when they would have seen them, which helps push them to lean in and think about and develop their back stories. And for the TRULY exotic, I make them spin me a tale of an adventure that they went on that would have resulted in them seeing such a thing and if they come up with a good, convincing one I'll allow it. Thankfully I have players that aren't trying to (actively) undermine the campaign and just like having fun and being creative and telling a great joint story, so they aren't, generally, trying to do stuff just to be OP, usually its because they think it will be funny to turn in to a giant octopus in the middle of a fight or some other nonsense like that. I DID have a player once that wanted to turn in to a velociraptor and damned if he didn't come up with one hell of a good story as to how he had seen that before so I allowed it lol.
Any restrictions that aren't based on gameplay balance are stupid imo.
I just say they can turn into anything they want but have to use the statblock of an existing Beast with CR within the allowed range for their level. Want to be an Owlbear at Level 3? Sure thing, you get the Dire Wolf statblock and can RP yourself as an Owlbear all you want since that has no effect on gameplay.
Any restrictions that aren't based on gameplay balance are stupid imo.
I just say they can turn into anything they want but have to use the statblock of an existing Beast with CR within the allowed range for their level. Want to be an Owlbear at Level 3? Sure thing, you get the Dire Wolf statblock and can RP yourself as an Owlbear all you want since that has no effect on gameplay.
I think that's what they were aiming at with the recent playtest material of a druid. Essentially it was a series of three different stat blocks that would apply irrespective of the shape (or rather thats how I think a lot of people interpreted it). The reception to that was actually pretty poor.
As you reference gameplay balance, I'd suggest you're talking more about combat balance, not gameplay balance. From a roleplay perspective not being able to wild shape into a dinosaur because you've never seen or heard of them isn't unreasonable. In fact I'd argue that it enhances and supports good roleplay. On the same side of things I'd add that your solution of allowing people to take a shape other than a beast is in the same vein. It's enhancing roleplay aspects not combat aspects.
I think the big problem with the UA wildshape was while it can cosmetically be anything mechanically you only had 3 options (and unless you were in water would would not use beast of the sea). Your "owlbear" is mechanically the same as a cat. If you wanted something with a burrowing speed or something more stealthy or witha decent speed on land (a ship) but able to cope if it fell overboard you were stuffed. I think WotC believe druid is the least played PHB class because the thought that you can wildshape into about 100 beasts all with their own stats if overwhelming and want to simplify it, I suspect we will end up with either a limied list of about 20 beast (the equivalent of the beasts in the PHB) or a template with a menu of alternative features you can choose.
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Hello everyone,
one of my player decided to be a druid and therefore will be able to use Wild Shape.
In the description of this feature, we can read
My player will start at level 3, so probably went through 2-3 adventures already.
My question is : do you limit the list of beast according to what the character have seen before?
For example, doesn't make sense to let her use Giant Octobus if the character never been on sea.
My second question is : how do you limit the list according to this detail ? Which beasts would you remove from the list ?
On page 302 of the DMG is a list of monsters (including beasts) by the enviroment found in so a reasonable way to make a list of eligable wild shape forms for your player would be to have them pick one or more enviroments that align with their backstory and just compile the beasts from those lists. They aren't totally comprehensive so you might have to add a couple of really ubiquitous creatures as well (for example the CR 0 spider isn't in any of those lists) but should at least give you a good basis.
The way I do this is to ask where the Druid comes from. In my homebrew world, I have one entire region that is just forest (as much of England would have been early in history). As such, if the character came from any settlements therein, they are limited to creatures who come from 'Forest' when filtering the Monster Manual here on D&D beyond. If they're a druid who hails from say a village on the coast, well they'll sort by 'Coastal'. I'll often top this list up with 'obvious' creaturs that would have been encountered (rat, cat, dog, mule etc). Make sure that this gets recorded on the extras section of the player's character sheet, this gives them really quick access to those stat blocks. If WotC would actually make those rollable (easily possible) here on DDB it would make druidic stuff so much quicker and easier!
As they adventure and encounter new creatures, my ruling has actually been that they either need to see and study the creature up close, or need to encounter it in combat to understand the creature's capabilities and utilise it. Though I actually expand that out to certain other creatures, like some animal like abberations to make it a bit more interesting.
1 . To do this, you go onto the extras tab of the character sheet if using DDB for character sheets (I highly recommend this from druids in particular).
2. Click 'Manage Extras'
3. Select 'Wild Shape' from the 'Add an Extra' drop down list.
4. Type the environment (Arctic, Coastal, Desert, Forest, Grassland, Hill, Mountain, Swamp, Underdark, Underwater, Urban).
5. Set the challenge rating of '0' - '2'
6. Click the green 'add' button next to each of the creatures you think is reasonable for the druid to have encountered.
In doing this, the Druid gets a populated list that is really quick to flick through and get the stat block of their wildshape. In one of the games I DM, my party's druid has access to 28 wildshape forms in this way (plus a bonus Guard Drake form for reasons). Once set up, you or the Druid can add each new creature that they encounter as the adventure progresses.
If you're looking for a slightly different way of doing it, I've played in a party where I saw a really cool rule in effect. Druids get two wildshape forms per level. In short, it's not just based off what creatures that the Druid has encountered or seen, it forces the druid to connect with the wildshapes a bit more. Maybe for example they pick Owl and Mastiff as their first two shapes. They've done so because these were childhood pets. At the next level, maybe the party encountered a playful fox that someone had a conversation with...the druid decides that the Fox and a Spider would be useful forms. So at level 1 they have two forms, level 2 four forms, level 3 six forms and so on.
The really cool effect of this is actually that it minimises the overwhelming options that result in the druid just picking the same wildshape over and over again, and also means that each wildshape form has the option to mean something to both the druid and the party at large.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
I think I have a - totally subjective and arbitrary - 'stuff that's reasonably normal' is fine, while 'stuff that's exotic, rare or just annoying isn't'. Based on this, if a player wanted to flop around on dry land as a giant octupus, I'd laugh but allow it (to my mind, an octopus has zero combat ability on land). But if a player wants to be some sort of raptor, or say a rancor (from Starwars) thats both hugely exotic and annoying, and not about to happen anytime soon.
But to be more clear: If the player wanted to wildshape into a gorilla, but had never left the 'nordics', I'd likely allow it. I'd likely work with the player to make some sort of white snow ape with the same stats, so as to explain the PC's familiarity with it.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Yes, I allow the players to choose 4 starting creatures based on the lists provided in XG. I further divide Forest and Grassland into temperate and tropical climates, and the player can only choose one. Then, I let the player learn new shapes like I do dropping spell scrolls for a wizard.
I like that approach even if it is subjective and arbitrary. I worry though that I'd have problems saying no to the player when they want something they think is really cool.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
If you want to limit Wild Shape you can either provide a list of beasts seen before or randomly determine if any given beast was ever seen when the Druid ask for one specifically.
Same here - that's why I acknowledge how cool it is, then explain, carefully, specifically, my concerns, and try to come up with something just as cool, but less powerful.
Like:
Druid: Can I wildshape into a Yeti (if we assumed that wasn't off for all manner of reasons)?
GM: Well no - but we could make a white arctic ape (with the stats of an ape, that is), call it a Yeti - and you could wildshape into that.
Not a perfect example, but I hope my point shines through the nonsense =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
When I discussed with my DM what wild shapes I could turn into before the start of a campaign, (he already had his backstory, in his world races teneded to live apart so being a tortle essentially said which part of the world I was originally from and by background was sailor (asa lover of the see he became a sailor and the navigator tought him about the stars leading to him becomming a stars druid). What was agreed was I would give him a list of the beasts I would like ot turn into and thought migth be appropriate (he gave me somew guidlines like forest, coastal and ocean would generally be OK and I would have been in ports where I would see dogs and horses etc but dinosaurs would be out) He would then set up the creatures in Roll 20 for me to play or let me know it would not be available. At level 4 and 8 I gave him lists for the extra creatures I would like as I could go to higher CR and gain a swim / fly speed.
At level 8 I have just under 30 beasts I can wild shape into which covers most eventualities.
I would also decide from the outset how polymorph and wildshape will interact and let the druid know. RAW when they reach level 7 a druid can polymorph his friends into beasts he had previously not seen (and maybe not know the existance of) and hence gain the ability to wild shape into them In my gane it was agreed that the "that you have seen before" also applies to polymorph.
As a druid i took full advantage of the accidental time i spent in the Fey Wild.
I am blessed with players who are fairly honest, so when they say something exotic for this, I will (if I feel I need to) ask if they would have seen one before, and if so where.
This does a couple of things - one, it reminds them of the limit without me stamping on them, and second it builds their story up in the background - you saw snow-apes in the mountains, ok, that means you travelled to the mountains, this may come up in the future.
If they start going to too many extremes (IE listing a fifth distinct biome that the 20-year-old character has seen) then I will say politely that the ycan't have seen everything in the world, and list the biomes they have already mentioned, which will make them pick one from there instead. I impose no in-game penalties or anything because their character will know what they have seen!
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I usually go with why be restrictive and spoil the player's fun? There are a relatively small selection of really useful wildshape forms, especially for a moon druid. The only exception I might make to that would be dinosaurs. If the world doesn't have dinosaurs or there is no chance that the druid would have ever encountered a dinosaur then they wouldn't have that option.
However, after some time of adventure, seeing beasts in a traveling menagerie or having visited different biomes, the druid is likely to have access to a very long list of creatures. In addition, discovering wild shapes would be something that every druid would be doing all the time so unless there is some reason a druid would never have any chance to have encountered a creature then I tend to lean towards allowing them (unless the player actually enjoys the book keeping then I will support them by giving them creatures they can see as part of everyday adventuring.
I think XGE also has a list of creatures you might have encountered before you could look at.
I like to use it as a RP and back story development opportunity. I start off with allowing anything they would reasonably have been able to see growing up/early adventures based on their back story. Then for rarer things I make them justify exactly how/when they would have seen them, which helps push them to lean in and think about and develop their back stories. And for the TRULY exotic, I make them spin me a tale of an adventure that they went on that would have resulted in them seeing such a thing and if they come up with a good, convincing one I'll allow it. Thankfully I have players that aren't trying to (actively) undermine the campaign and just like having fun and being creative and telling a great joint story, so they aren't, generally, trying to do stuff just to be OP, usually its because they think it will be funny to turn in to a giant octopus in the middle of a fight or some other nonsense like that. I DID have a player once that wanted to turn in to a velociraptor and damned if he didn't come up with one hell of a good story as to how he had seen that before so I allowed it lol.
Any restrictions that aren't based on gameplay balance are stupid imo.
I just say they can turn into anything they want but have to use the statblock of an existing Beast with CR within the allowed range for their level. Want to be an Owlbear at Level 3? Sure thing, you get the Dire Wolf statblock and can RP yourself as an Owlbear all you want since that has no effect on gameplay.
I think that's what they were aiming at with the recent playtest material of a druid. Essentially it was a series of three different stat blocks that would apply irrespective of the shape (or rather thats how I think a lot of people interpreted it). The reception to that was actually pretty poor.
As you reference gameplay balance, I'd suggest you're talking more about combat balance, not gameplay balance. From a roleplay perspective not being able to wild shape into a dinosaur because you've never seen or heard of them isn't unreasonable. In fact I'd argue that it enhances and supports good roleplay. On the same side of things I'd add that your solution of allowing people to take a shape other than a beast is in the same vein. It's enhancing roleplay aspects not combat aspects.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
I think the big problem with the UA wildshape was while it can cosmetically be anything mechanically you only had 3 options (and unless you were in water would would not use beast of the sea). Your "owlbear" is mechanically the same as a cat. If you wanted something with a burrowing speed or something more stealthy or witha decent speed on land (a ship) but able to cope if it fell overboard you were stuffed. I think WotC believe druid is the least played PHB class because the thought that you can wildshape into about 100 beasts all with their own stats if overwhelming and want to simplify it, I suspect we will end up with either a limied list of about 20 beast (the equivalent of the beasts in the PHB) or a template with a menu of alternative features you can choose.