I was wondering how would you do more advanced guns in DnD like bolt action rifles and other weapons you can fire more than once but aren’t full on assault rifles. Because it seems a little stupid that someone who has proficiency in weapons can only get 1 shot off every 6 seconds, (and so on for extra attacks) per tern with a rifle capable of doing 20-30 shots per minute. Any ideas on how I can improve this for an upcoming homebrew?
If it helps, the automatic rifle in the DMG offers a "burst fire" mode.
Burst Fire. A weapon that has the burst fire property can make a normal single-target attack, or it can spray a 10-foot-cube area within normal range with shots. Each creature in the area must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or take the weapon’s normal damage. This action uses ten pieces of ammunition.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Honestly, with a bolt, pump, or lever-action firearm, you really should only be firing once every six seconds or so if you actually want to hit anything. Going faster than that means you're not taking the time to actually aim.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Honestly, with a bolt, pump, or lever-action firearm, you really should only be firing once every six seconds or so if you actually want to hit anything. Going faster than that means you're not taking the time to actually aim.
According to some sources a trained riflemen can put 20-30 aimed shots per minute which roughly equals to 2-3 shoots per tern. And I’m planning on having them take disadvantage if they don’t take time to aim. But yes I agree they’re not going to be outputting 100+ rounds a minute with a lee enfield
I feel like if you're going for realism with the 2-3 shots per 6 seconds, the main issue is going to be how much damage a real bolt action rifle can do with 2-3 shots. My advice would be to ditch the realism at lower levels... though, the disadvantage rolls aren't a bad idea for mitigating overly heavy damage output.
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DMing a campaign video podcast, in my own homebrew campaign setting: Chronicles of the Cloudsea.
1) In Napoleonic era wars the best trained soldiers could shoot an average 3-4 rounds per minute with a musket or early rifle, this rate increases over the next 100 years or so, there is information on training the British Army did around 1910 (ish) called "The Mad Minute" where they would use bolt action Lee Enfield Rifles firing at a static target about 300 yards away and the average number of hits (not shots) came out at about 29 in a minute.
EDIT: Lee harvey Oswald fired 3 shots in just under 9 seconds at a moving target.
The reason I mention this is the more training you have the more accurate and quick you can be....however....
2) When considering the fire rate for 5e you need to think about the laoding property of the firearm or how many times can it be shot before needing to be reloaded. A feat such as Gunner (from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything) would get around this.
3) Having more attacks per round is the Extra Attack class feature, so if you want the rifle to be able to fire more than the Attack action would allow I would probably say something along the lines of "When you take the Attack Action you can make one addition attack as a Bonus Action" or maybe use a feat or weapon property that mimics the Monk Flurry of Blows ability where you can make a few extra attacks by using some other resource such as Hit Dice or have it useable a few times per Short Rest.
4) You could use the Ranger spells Hail of Thorns, Conjure Barrage and Conjure Volley to represent various types of shot or modes of fire.
5) You could use the Firearms from the Fighter/Gunslinger class as a base and I would likely keep the misfire chance to balance it out. Another option might be to seek out the Legends of Runeterra; Dark Tides of Bilgewater setting which has another gun themed fighter subclass.
Thanks for the help man, you have some really good points, the setting is a low fantasy so I can add magical aid lore wise to the rifles to help scratch my realism itch and keep it fun to play.
Thanks for the help man, you have some really good points, the setting is a low fantasy so I can add magical aid lore wise to the rifles to help scratch my realism itch and keep it fun to play.
I forgot...also worth looking up the UA version of artificer and its Thunder Cannon.
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If it helps, the automatic rifle in the DMG offers a "burst fire" mode.
Burst Fire. A weapon that has the burst fire property can make a normal single-target attack, or it can spray a 10-foot-cube area within normal range with shots. Each creature in the area must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or take the weapon’s normal damage. This action uses ten pieces of ammunition.
Does the Burst Fire cost an action, or an attack, for the purposes of extra attack, or adding the effects of a Battle Master’s Maneuvers?
If it helps, the automatic rifle in the DMG offers a "burst fire" mode.
Burst Fire. A weapon that has the burst fire property can make a normal single-target attack, or it can spray a 10-foot-cube area within normal range with shots. Each creature in the area must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or take the weapon’s normal damage. This action uses ten pieces of ammunition.
Does the Burst Fire cost an action, or an attack, for the purposes of extra attack, or adding the effects of a Battle Master’s Maneuvers?
It reads as one of the attacks in the attack action for purposes of multiple attacks.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I think the problem with arguing D&D combat and ranged munitions, not just firearms, is the presumption of "one bullet (or even one shot) one roll". In melee combat, it's abundantly clear combatants aren't swinging their weapons once every six seconds. The attack roll represents the overall effort to land damage on target. Maybe it's truly one solid hit represented in the damage, maybe it's a bunch of smaller cuts or combination hits. Realize firearms are dealt with as abstractly and a lot of the consternation about gun realities go the way of every other IRL combat reality in D&D. There are simulationist games built for realistically rendering violence, D&D just isn't. Heck even some of the arguably "realistic" gun combat games aren't simulationist since they want to streamline the combat to the impact guns in play have, rather than thinking the game's dice log will 100% match up a coroners inquest post mortem. Instead of counting bullets with Clint Eastwood, they presume gun combat you're firing a 'shot' (of which you have a limited amount but don't pretend you're ammunition inventory are literal bullets or arrow numbers). Firing a shot could be one bullet, could be a few, could even be a sort of spray and pray. Firearms can be used in a variety of ways, but so can't every weapon, and 5e combat is played in broad strokes.
How do you do loading? Loading mags is easy but what about revolvers or tubular magazines?
Well, mechanically, the firearms use the reload rules (using an action or bonus action).
Properties
Firearms use special ammunition, and some of them have the burst fire or reload property.
Ammunition. The ammunition of a firearm is destroyed upon use. Renaissance and modern firearms use bullets. Futuristic firearms are powered by a special type of ammunition called energy cells. An energy cell contains enough power for all the shots its firearm can make.
Burst Fire. A weapon that has the burst fire property can make a normal single-target attack, or it can spray a 10-foot-cube area within normal range with shots. Each creature in the area must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or take the weapon’s normal damage. This action uses ten pieces of ammunition.
Reload. A limited number of shots can be made with a weapon that has the reload property. A character must then reload it using an action or a bonus action (the character’s choice).
Flavorfully, it can be as simple as loading a mag with a click and satisfying cock of the slide; or shaking out the shells of a revolver to jam in a speedloader and spinning the chambers; or however people jam a muzzle loader in a cool fashion.
I was wondering how would you do more advanced guns in DnD like bolt action rifles and other weapons you can fire more than once but aren’t full on assault rifles. Because it seems a little stupid that someone who has proficiency in weapons can only get 1 shot off every 6 seconds, (and so on for extra attacks) per tern with a rifle capable of doing 20-30 shots per minute. Any ideas on how I can improve this for an upcoming homebrew?
If it helps, the automatic rifle in the DMG offers a "burst fire" mode.
I haven’t came across this table in my readings of the DMG, but thanks this looks useful.
It's in the Firearms section of Chapter 9's Dungeon Master's Workshop.
Thanks I appreciate the help man
Honestly, with a bolt, pump, or lever-action firearm, you really should only be firing once every six seconds or so if you actually want to hit anything. Going faster than that means you're not taking the time to actually aim.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
According to some sources a trained riflemen can put 20-30 aimed shots per minute which roughly equals to 2-3 shoots per tern. And I’m planning on having them take disadvantage if they don’t take time to aim. But yes I agree they’re not going to be outputting 100+ rounds a minute with a lee enfield
Plus I’m only really going to be using these mechanics for short to medium range combat, so it doesn’t take a solid few seconds to line up a shot.
I feel like if you're going for realism with the 2-3 shots per 6 seconds, the main issue is going to be how much damage a real bolt action rifle can do with 2-3 shots. My advice would be to ditch the realism at lower levels... though, the disadvantage rolls aren't a bad idea for mitigating overly heavy damage output.
DMing a campaign video podcast, in my own homebrew campaign setting: Chronicles of the Cloudsea.
http://www.youtube.com/voidmoney
My 2cp worth, some things to consider;
1) In Napoleonic era wars the best trained soldiers could shoot an average 3-4 rounds per minute with a musket or early rifle, this rate increases over the next 100 years or so, there is information on training the British Army did around 1910 (ish) called "The Mad Minute" where they would use bolt action Lee Enfield Rifles firing at a static target about 300 yards away and the average number of hits (not shots) came out at about 29 in a minute.
EDIT: Lee harvey Oswald fired 3 shots in just under 9 seconds at a moving target.
The reason I mention this is the more training you have the more accurate and quick you can be....however....
2) When considering the fire rate for 5e you need to think about the laoding property of the firearm or how many times can it be shot before needing to be reloaded. A feat such as Gunner (from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything) would get around this.
3) Having more attacks per round is the Extra Attack class feature, so if you want the rifle to be able to fire more than the Attack action would allow I would probably say something along the lines of "When you take the Attack Action you can make one addition attack as a Bonus Action" or maybe use a feat or weapon property that mimics the Monk Flurry of Blows ability where you can make a few extra attacks by using some other resource such as Hit Dice or have it useable a few times per Short Rest.
4) You could use the Ranger spells Hail of Thorns, Conjure Barrage and Conjure Volley to represent various types of shot or modes of fire.
5) You could use the Firearms from the Fighter/Gunslinger class as a base and I would likely keep the misfire chance to balance it out. Another option might be to seek out the Legends of Runeterra; Dark Tides of Bilgewater setting which has another gun themed fighter subclass.
Thanks for the help man, you have some really good points, the setting is a low fantasy so I can add magical aid lore wise to the rifles to help scratch my realism itch and keep it fun to play.
I forgot...also worth looking up the UA version of artificer and its Thunder Cannon.
How do you have this stuff memorized!?!?
Does the Burst Fire cost an action, or an attack, for the purposes of extra attack, or adding the effects of a Battle Master’s Maneuvers?
It reads as one of the attacks in the attack action for purposes of multiple attacks.
I think the problem with arguing D&D combat and ranged munitions, not just firearms, is the presumption of "one bullet (or even one shot) one roll". In melee combat, it's abundantly clear combatants aren't swinging their weapons once every six seconds. The attack roll represents the overall effort to land damage on target. Maybe it's truly one solid hit represented in the damage, maybe it's a bunch of smaller cuts or combination hits. Realize firearms are dealt with as abstractly and a lot of the consternation about gun realities go the way of every other IRL combat reality in D&D. There are simulationist games built for realistically rendering violence, D&D just isn't. Heck even some of the arguably "realistic" gun combat games aren't simulationist since they want to streamline the combat to the impact guns in play have, rather than thinking the game's dice log will 100% match up a coroners inquest post mortem. Instead of counting bullets with Clint Eastwood, they presume gun combat you're firing a 'shot' (of which you have a limited amount but don't pretend you're ammunition inventory are literal bullets or arrow numbers). Firing a shot could be one bullet, could be a few, could even be a sort of spray and pray. Firearms can be used in a variety of ways, but so can't every weapon, and 5e combat is played in broad strokes.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
How do you do loading? Loading mags is easy but what about revolvers or tubular magazines?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
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-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
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Well, mechanically, the firearms use the reload rules (using an action or bonus action).
Flavorfully, it can be as simple as loading a mag with a click and satisfying cock of the slide; or shaking out the shells of a revolver to jam in a speedloader and spinning the chambers; or however people jam a muzzle loader in a cool fashion.
Or......it could just be ridiculously anime......