My NPC is an Oath of Glory Paladin who's LG and believes in his party's ability to be the heroic heroes they claim to be!
The party I DM as a whole other than the pally is neutral at best.
If, as time marches on, they grow deeper into their not-so-heroic ways, could this push the Paladin to break his Oath of Glory (based on his aspirations for the party)?
And if so... an oatbreaker pal doesn't fit because of all the evil connotations of that build.
Thoughts? Party is 6th level now but around 9th or 10th this may come up.
Yeah, the oath breaker is designed as a kind of anti devotion paladin. Not just one who broke their oath but one that actively opposes the devotion paladin in particular. Given that it's an npc you jut have to balance hem for the kind of encounter you want rather than long term play so you don't have to make or use a class. I suggest just giving them abilities that fit their character, there are a few ways paladins can go wrong for each oath.
For example
One way an oath of glory paladin can go wrong is they can become jealous . Benefiting from other peoples efforts instead of their own. In that case instead of abilities that bolster allies they would get debuffs to enemies. An aura that slows speed, a divine smite that drains strength from enemies giving it to them self ect.. Others include:
they could become very lazy and give up. They may then radiate that outwards with abilities that lull people to sleep.
They could also become cowardly an terrified and radiate fear effects.
They could go too hard on the idea of glory and become a rabid berserker that drives those around them mad
Yeah, having the paladin quite the group and reappear with a small party of zealot-types to try to make their ex-party repent and see the error of their ways.
But how do you breack the oath of glory. What actions make you loose it?
The rules don't provide lists of specific actions that break Paladin oaths; it's up to the DM to decide whether something the character does has an impact on that.
The description of each subclass does provide a list of principles that those Paladins should follow, so it's safe to assume that anything going against those principles is going to be a problem. For instance, one of the tenets of the Oath of Glory is "Face hardships with courage, and encourage your allies to face them with you". So, it's safe to say that running from a fight is not in keeping with this oath.
But how do you breack the oath of glory. What actions make you loose it?
Up ro DM. may be contrary to what Oath of Glory Paladins essentially represent is where i'd start. Paladins who take the Oath of Glory believe they and their companions are destined to achieve glory through deeds of heroism. They train diligently and encourage their companions, so that they're all ready when destiny calls, These Paladins share the following tenets:
Endeavor to be known by your deeds.
Face hardships with courage.
Inspire others to strive for glory.
So DM for example could consider things such as anynonymous, cowardice, believe in or inspire others for mediocrity or unheroic etc
The following guidelines are provided about Breaking Your Oath in the rules:
Breaking Your Oath: A Paladin tries to hold to the highest standards of conduct, but even the most dedicated are fallible. Sometimes a Paladin transgresses their oath. A Paladin who has broken a vow typically seeks absolution, spending an all-night vigil as a sign of penitence or undertaking a fast. After a rite of forgiveness, the Paladin starts fresh. If your Paladin unrepentantly violates their oath, talk to your DM. Your Paladin should probably take a more appropriate subclass or even abandon the class and adopt another one.
But how do you breack the oath of glory. What actions make you loose it?
I'm going to disagree with the above answers. It should be in the player's hands, not the DM's.
If a PC paladin is violating their oath regularly, the DM should certainly have a talk with the player about it, but it should ultimately be the player's call.
Unilaterally rewriting a player's character out from under them is fraught at best, and can easily lead to ill feeling. Better to have the talk and sort out whether they're deliberately playing a paladin failing at their oath, or they chose an oath that turns out not to fit their character, and then together you can work out the in-game consequences or lack thereof.
I'm going to disagree with the above answers. It should be in the player's hands, not the DM's.
Going to disagree with that as well. This is session zero discussion, much like the consequences of a cleric going against the precepts of their deity, or how a warlock's interaction with their patron works.
But how do you breack the oath of glory. What actions make you loose it?
I'm going to disagree with the above answers. It should be in the player's hands, not the DM's.
If a PC paladin is violating their oath regularly, the DM should certainly have a talk with the player about it, but it should ultimately be the player's call.
Unilaterally rewriting a player's character out from under them is fraught at best, and can easily lead to ill feeling. Better to have the talk and sort out whether they're deliberately playing a paladin failing at their oath, or they chose an oath that turns out not to fit their character, and then together you can work out the in-game consequences or lack thereof.
That is a very good point. I didn't mean to suggest it should just be entirely by DM fiat all the time. I more meant that it's a subjective thing that's not explicitly defined in the rules and thus will vary from table to table.
I'm going to disagree with the above answers. It should be in the player's hands, not the DM's.
Going to disagree with that as well. This is session zero discussion, much like the consequences of a cleric going against the precepts of their deity, or how a warlock's interaction with their patron works.
Certainly it's a matter for session zero. I just have opinions about how that should be resolved.
Historically, it's usually only paladins who have this happen to them. Back in the 1e days, IIRC, the rules said it should be done that way, and it often went poorly. The baggage of that still exists in the zeitgeist of D&D.
Mostly, I think that bad roleplaying should not be dealt with through game mechanics, but at the interpersonal level. And that's what this often is. (It can also be good roleplaying, or a clash of assumptions between the player and DM.)
Definitely DM & Player discussion if a Paladin was doing that. Change is another matter. though as i believe a PC sheet is sacred to which any change is delicate, especially more with something as important and fundamental as a subclass, There should be a common accord.
Personally in 30+ years DMing i never saw a Paladin modification and the only Oathbreaker i've seen was a Player choice at character creation.
Historically, it's usually only paladins who have this happen to them.
RAW it also applied to clerics, and hosed them even more than it hosed paladins (a lapsed paladin was a fighter without specialization/etc. A lapsed cleric also got a worse hit die and worse attack progression)
I'm going to disagree with the above answers. It should be in the player's hands, not the DM's.
Going to disagree with that as well. This is session zero discussion, much like the consequences of a cleric going against the precepts of their deity, or how a warlock's interaction with their patron works.
The problem has been resolved, but why would Clerics and dieties and Warlocks and patron interactions matter when the Paladin (in this case) is an NPC?
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I typically don't like DM's running NPC's - I have done it in the past I know we all have for one reason or another.
I evolved into the opinion that the DM is one of 5 or 6 people at the table - as DM you should do your job, set the stage, manage the story, manage combat, and not really take up more time than any one of the other 5 people. I try to make sure all the players have as much time and agency as possible and that precludes my having complicated or combat meaningful NPC's tagging along with the group.
Yup and that's why I got rid of this character. There are only 3 PCs at our table and we'll see how they do as a trio. "You level up to 7th, but its just the 3 of you now."
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My NPC is an Oath of Glory Paladin who's LG and believes in his party's ability to be the heroic heroes they claim to be!
The party I DM as a whole other than the pally is neutral at best.
If, as time marches on, they grow deeper into their not-so-heroic ways, could this push the Paladin to break his Oath of Glory (based on his aspirations for the party)?
And if so... an oatbreaker pal doesn't fit because of all the evil connotations of that build.
Thoughts? Party is 6th level now but around 9th or 10th this may come up.
Thanks!!
He's an NPC. Just have him keep his oath and turn against the PCs.
I've never had a problem with LG or CE in any parties. It's the CN ones that seem to want to be the troublemakers.
Sounds good. I'll put this in my back pocket for later on down the line. Thanks!
My experience is that CN is "CE but delusional about it".
Yeah, the oath breaker is designed as a kind of anti devotion paladin. Not just one who broke their oath but one that actively opposes the devotion paladin in particular. Given that it's an npc you jut have to balance hem for the kind of encounter you want rather than long term play so you don't have to make or use a class. I suggest just giving them abilities that fit their character, there are a few ways paladins can go wrong for each oath.
For example
One way an oath of glory paladin can go wrong is they can become jealous . Benefiting from other peoples efforts instead of their own. In that case instead of abilities that bolster allies they would get debuffs to enemies. An aura that slows speed, a divine smite that drains strength from enemies giving it to them self ect.. Others include:
Yeah, having the paladin quite the group and reappear with a small party of zealot-types to try to make their ex-party repent and see the error of their ways.
But how do you breack the oath of glory. What actions make you loose it?
The rules don't provide lists of specific actions that break Paladin oaths; it's up to the DM to decide whether something the character does has an impact on that.
The description of each subclass does provide a list of principles that those Paladins should follow, so it's safe to assume that anything going against those principles is going to be a problem. For instance, one of the tenets of the Oath of Glory is "Face hardships with courage, and encourage your allies to face them with you". So, it's safe to say that running from a fight is not in keeping with this oath.
pronouns: he/she/they
Up ro DM. may be contrary to what Oath of Glory Paladins essentially represent is where i'd start. Paladins who take the Oath of Glory believe they and their companions are destined to achieve glory through deeds of heroism. They train diligently and encourage their companions, so that they're all ready when destiny calls, These Paladins share the following tenets:
So DM for example could consider things such as anynonymous, cowardice, believe in or inspire others for mediocrity or unheroic etc
The following guidelines are provided about Breaking Your Oath in the rules:
I'm going to disagree with the above answers. It should be in the player's hands, not the DM's.
If a PC paladin is violating their oath regularly, the DM should certainly have a talk with the player about it, but it should ultimately be the player's call.
Unilaterally rewriting a player's character out from under them is fraught at best, and can easily lead to ill feeling. Better to have the talk and sort out whether they're deliberately playing a paladin failing at their oath, or they chose an oath that turns out not to fit their character, and then together you can work out the in-game consequences or lack thereof.
Going to disagree with that as well. This is session zero discussion, much like the consequences of a cleric going against the precepts of their deity, or how a warlock's interaction with their patron works.
That is a very good point. I didn't mean to suggest it should just be entirely by DM fiat all the time. I more meant that it's a subjective thing that's not explicitly defined in the rules and thus will vary from table to table.
pronouns: he/she/they
Certainly it's a matter for session zero. I just have opinions about how that should be resolved.
Historically, it's usually only paladins who have this happen to them. Back in the 1e days, IIRC, the rules said it should be done that way, and it often went poorly. The baggage of that still exists in the zeitgeist of D&D.
Mostly, I think that bad roleplaying should not be dealt with through game mechanics, but at the interpersonal level. And that's what this often is. (It can also be good roleplaying, or a clash of assumptions between the player and DM.)
Definitely DM & Player discussion if a Paladin was doing that. Change is another matter. though as i believe a PC sheet is sacred to which any change is delicate, especially more with something as important and fundamental as a subclass, There should be a common accord.
Personally in 30+ years DMing i never saw a Paladin modification and the only Oathbreaker i've seen was a Player choice at character creation.
RAW it also applied to clerics, and hosed them even more than it hosed paladins (a lapsed paladin was a fighter without specialization/etc. A lapsed cleric also got a worse hit die and worse attack progression)
Thank you all for your input. I love the community that's here to field questions like this.
This quandary was actually solved by an Alhoon's Disintegrate spell vs. the Paladin's failed save.
A new BBEG has entered the chat!
The problem has been resolved, but why would Clerics and dieties and Warlocks and patron interactions matter when the Paladin (in this case) is an NPC?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I typically don't like DM's running NPC's - I have done it in the past I know we all have for one reason or another.
I evolved into the opinion that the DM is one of 5 or 6 people at the table - as DM you should do your job, set the stage, manage the story, manage combat, and not really take up more time than any one of the other 5 people. I try to make sure all the players have as much time and agency as possible and that precludes my having complicated or combat meaningful NPC's tagging along with the group.
$.02
Yup and that's why I got rid of this character. There are only 3 PCs at our table and we'll see how they do as a trio. "You level up to 7th, but its just the 3 of you now."