So I got DND beyond premium subscription because I wanted to start to DM. I got the essential series books, Dragons of Icespire peak. I've been setting up for a game but I just realized all the player maps show the secret doors?! What's the point of this then? I thought this was a paid content to make it fast and easy and it really hasn't been!
Are all new content like this? Even those labelled with MAPS?
Unfortunately, this is a long-standing issue with the 'player' versions of the maps provided in adventures. Even going back to Lost Mine of Phandelver. Mike Schley inked some wonderful maps, but sadly they do require a bit of suspension of disbelief. Even the 'player' version of those maps made it stupidly clear where the secret doors are. That's where the conversation about out of character and in character knowledge is. It's a basic case of saying that the player might know but the characters don't.
I'd also note that DDB Maps is a laughable attempt to provide a service that a lot of people have wanted. A massive company have all but failed to provide anything even approaching the level of quality that an indie (Owlbear Rodeo) have managed to do with just two devs, and a community of volunteer extensions developers.
If the player/character knowledge thing isn't to your taste, I'd recommend the multitude of people out there who have created their own versions of the maps in some adventures and a brief google search will show them. I'd highly recommend getting your hands on those or using something like Inkarnate to recreate your own (I did this, but they aren't amazing), and combining them with a maps tool like Owlbear for a far superior experience than Maps can offer.
Thanks for that! I will keep note, and find some through google.
So are the new adventure books like this as well? Or are the new ones now made without the secret doors on the player maps? LIke Phandelver and below or Vecna?
I think the idea behind including the secret doors on the player maps is that it makes it easier for the DM to reveal them to the players when they are found. If they aren't on the player map then it is more difficult for the DM to indicate that a door is present is and when the players find it. Most player maps are not necessarily intended to be just handed to the players but rather to provide a template for the DM that shows only what the players can see and might see.
In person, the DM is just drawing the map or otherwise representing it on the table. If they print a version of the map then the DM usually uses paper to conceal the parts the players haven't explored yet. On a VTT, the DM typically uses whatever fog of war tool is provided. In either case, the DM only reveals the secret door part of the map when/if the players find it. This may require a fairly careful selection of which part of the map to reveal.
I've found it relatively rare that the entire map is revealed to the players to start with so that the only thing they need to search for is secret doors ... or the players explore the entire map without revealing most or all of the secret doors. In either case, any rooms behind the secret doors ARE usually on the map already so the players may be able to tell from the map layout that they may have missed something anyway even if the secret doors aren't visible.
If the VTT has dynamic lighting, you can also use that to hide the secret doors.
Anyway, in general, I'd probably prefer that the secret doors are indicated on the maps that the player explores so that I don't have to try drawing stuff on the map directly to indicate the secret door when they find it. If the door art work is decent then it shouldn't have parts sticking out making it easy to identify if the map hasn't actually revealed that section of wall entirely. Secret doors are supposed to be hidden, so I think the maps should portray them with a solid line matching the wall of the room where they start but perhaps different art work inside the wall so that if the players can only see the line representing the wall on the map then the presence of a secret door isn't obvious.
Sadly, with Phandelver and Below - yes. They're (I think and without double checking) also Mike Schley's work. They're beautiful maps, it's just that the people putting together the books I don't think ever thought to commission player versions without the 'S' symbol denoting secret doors.
The maps in Eve of Ruin are not to my personal taste. I really dislike that they chose a kind of mix and match style for different maps...but that's personal preference. I don't think (again from memory) that they contain any secret doors. However, what I will say is that Eve of Ruin is at best a sloppy amatuer mess. WotC came up with a fetch quest, then realised it all hinged on player characters not using abilities well within the reach of level 10 characters so had to create an item. It's a book where my solution was to steal little bits and pieces from because it's really not all that high quality sadly. Again that is my personal opinion and based on my subjective assessments. See spoiler tags if you need more info.
Basically, to keep the secret of Mordenkienen/Kas 'safe' the writers made up a crown that effectively undermined player character abilities. Insight checks cannot reveal Kas to be lying. Neither for that matter could any spell other than Wish. I would be very surprised if anyone in that writing team had ever actually played in a full Level 1-20 campaign. To essentially write away abilities in order to preserve a whole book's worth of activities is in my opinion amateurish writing.
Again though, I emphasise - player knowledge vs. Character Knowledge.
Last week, I gave my players a simple riddle. For their characters to discover the answer was a Wisdom Insight (or a HIstory) check. The players, if they know the riddle still need to justify their character's answer even if they themselves know the answer as a player. It's not much different in principle with maps. Just because a player can see a secret door, does not mean their character can. Much like the riddle, it might be frustrating to know the answer as a player and yet your character just is unable to access that knowledge.
Hi all,
So I got DND beyond premium subscription because I wanted to start to DM. I got the essential series books, Dragons of Icespire peak. I've been setting up for a game but I just realized all the player maps show the secret doors?! What's the point of this then? I thought this was a paid content to make it fast and easy and it really hasn't been!
Are all new content like this? Even those labelled with MAPS?
Help please!
Thank you!
Unfortunately, this is a long-standing issue with the 'player' versions of the maps provided in adventures. Even going back to Lost Mine of Phandelver. Mike Schley inked some wonderful maps, but sadly they do require a bit of suspension of disbelief. Even the 'player' version of those maps made it stupidly clear where the secret doors are. That's where the conversation about out of character and in character knowledge is. It's a basic case of saying that the player might know but the characters don't.
I'd also note that DDB Maps is a laughable attempt to provide a service that a lot of people have wanted. A massive company have all but failed to provide anything even approaching the level of quality that an indie (Owlbear Rodeo) have managed to do with just two devs, and a community of volunteer extensions developers.
If the player/character knowledge thing isn't to your taste, I'd recommend the multitude of people out there who have created their own versions of the maps in some adventures and a brief google search will show them. I'd highly recommend getting your hands on those or using something like Inkarnate to recreate your own (I did this, but they aren't amazing), and combining them with a maps tool like Owlbear for a far superior experience than Maps can offer.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Thanks for that! I will keep note, and find some through google.
So are the new adventure books like this as well? Or are the new ones now made without the secret doors on the player maps? LIke Phandelver and below or Vecna?
Thanks!
I think the idea behind including the secret doors on the player maps is that it makes it easier for the DM to reveal them to the players when they are found. If they aren't on the player map then it is more difficult for the DM to indicate that a door is present is and when the players find it. Most player maps are not necessarily intended to be just handed to the players but rather to provide a template for the DM that shows only what the players can see and might see.
In person, the DM is just drawing the map or otherwise representing it on the table. If they print a version of the map then the DM usually uses paper to conceal the parts the players haven't explored yet. On a VTT, the DM typically uses whatever fog of war tool is provided. In either case, the DM only reveals the secret door part of the map when/if the players find it. This may require a fairly careful selection of which part of the map to reveal.
I've found it relatively rare that the entire map is revealed to the players to start with so that the only thing they need to search for is secret doors ... or the players explore the entire map without revealing most or all of the secret doors. In either case, any rooms behind the secret doors ARE usually on the map already so the players may be able to tell from the map layout that they may have missed something anyway even if the secret doors aren't visible.
If the VTT has dynamic lighting, you can also use that to hide the secret doors.
Anyway, in general, I'd probably prefer that the secret doors are indicated on the maps that the player explores so that I don't have to try drawing stuff on the map directly to indicate the secret door when they find it. If the door art work is decent then it shouldn't have parts sticking out making it easy to identify if the map hasn't actually revealed that section of wall entirely. Secret doors are supposed to be hidden, so I think the maps should portray them with a solid line matching the wall of the room where they start but perhaps different art work inside the wall so that if the players can only see the line representing the wall on the map then the presence of a secret door isn't obvious.
Sadly, with Phandelver and Below - yes. They're (I think and without double checking) also Mike Schley's work. They're beautiful maps, it's just that the people putting together the books I don't think ever thought to commission player versions without the 'S' symbol denoting secret doors.
The maps in Eve of Ruin are not to my personal taste. I really dislike that they chose a kind of mix and match style for different maps...but that's personal preference. I don't think (again from memory) that they contain any secret doors. However, what I will say is that Eve of Ruin is at best a sloppy amatuer mess. WotC came up with a fetch quest, then realised it all hinged on player characters not using abilities well within the reach of level 10 characters so had to create an item. It's a book where my solution was to steal little bits and pieces from because it's really not all that high quality sadly. Again that is my personal opinion and based on my subjective assessments. See spoiler tags if you need more info.
Basically, to keep the secret of Mordenkienen/Kas 'safe' the writers made up a crown that effectively undermined player character abilities. Insight checks cannot reveal Kas to be lying. Neither for that matter could any spell other than Wish. I would be very surprised if anyone in that writing team had ever actually played in a full Level 1-20 campaign. To essentially write away abilities in order to preserve a whole book's worth of activities is in my opinion amateurish writing.
Again though, I emphasise - player knowledge vs. Character Knowledge.
Last week, I gave my players a simple riddle. For their characters to discover the answer was a Wisdom Insight (or a HIstory) check. The players, if they know the riddle still need to justify their character's answer even if they themselves know the answer as a player. It's not much different in principle with maps. Just because a player can see a secret door, does not mean their character can. Much like the riddle, it might be frustrating to know the answer as a player and yet your character just is unable to access that knowledge.
Of course it's what you as a GM can live with.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.