So I recently ran a boss fight with my players, it was a short double boss against a Doomcaller from Lairs of Etharis with some added Illusion and information gathering spells and a couple feats, and it's Goristro bodyguard.
To preface, the this doomcaller is a particularly notable recurring villian in my campaign, but moreso a threat operating in the background than as a BBEG. The party knew that he used illusions, magic, and an ability to glimpse the future to keep the tides of combat in his favor.
The Doomcaller's goal of this fight was to force the party to surrender the campaigns MacGuffin, which the Doomcaller needs to bring the BBEG into the material plane.
My players obviously refuse to hand over the item, and combat ensues, they struggle with the Goristro a bit while hunting down the Doomcaller, who is using invisibility and illusions to give the party hell. They have a few close calls, but eventually force the Doomcaller and his Goristro into a tactical retreat using the Gate spell.
The Doomcaller retreats to a demon lord in the Abyss with the spell, and the party uses a Commune to ask if they can kill the Doomcaller without themselves dying. To which, the answer they got was no. Pretty beaten up after the boss fight, but confident he could kill the Doomcaller in a single hit, the Paladin posed the idea to the group thar he could go after the Doomcaller. If he got lucky and won initiative, he would kill the Doomcaller in one hit, then die to the demon lord is served. The party agreed to the idea, and said their goodbyes as the Paladin sets off on his suicide mission.
Here's where I want to know if this is too mean.
While this is happening, the Doomcaller is setting a Programmed Illusion to trigger when the Paladin enters, and, upon being hit, display a gruesome death for the Illusion, meanwhile the real Doomcaller is using invisibility to hide once more. The Paladin goes in, no use of truesight or checks to test for illusions, wins initiative, gets his hit, which I specifically described as "felt like cutting through air as the demon's body falls in twain". Believing he had killed the Doomcaller, with 7 HP remaining, he accepts his death to the Demon Lord whose throne room he was warped to.
Now obviously, the Doomcaller shouldn't be dead, and I have a rug-pull planned later when they are going to meet this Doomcaller again. But... given a player sacrificed his character for that win, would it be too cruel to take that win away? Or should it be acceptable because they knew damn well it was suicide, knew damn well the Doomcaller was an illusionist, did no checks or truesight, and just charged in recklessly hoping for the best?
Going on a solo mission like that is basically asking for it.
What I would do is give the player the win, say they killed the doomcaller, start the fade to black and have the demon lord begin to suck the soul out of the PC. Let the party believe they killed the thing regardless of whether they did or it was an illusion. Saying nothing happens is huge bummer.
From here you can say the soul of the dead PC was used to reincarnate the doomcaller. When they see it again, it has the face of the dead PC.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
The biggest worry here is that when the party made this plan, would the Doomcaller know about it?
If you're using DM knowledge to hard-counter a player tactic, you're metagaming to the worst degree, and it risks breeding an "us vs them" mentality with your players. It also means they will stop sharing their plans with you, because they will think that this is tantamount to telling their enemy what they are going to do.
So ask yourself, if the Doomcaller is so powerful, why would it pretend to die?
A far better option would be to let the paladin attempt their plan, and let in play out as the dice decree. Then, instead of the paladin being lost eternally, have them return as a death knight and replacement for the Doomcaller. Have the player make a new character, but the old one will be used against the party in the future. Thus the Doomcaller is killed, as planned (or not, if the dice fail them) and you can say "Yes, but" instead of "haha, didn't work". Maybe the Doomcaller is a role, and it is taken on by whomever slays the Doomcaller? Maybe the party can free the paladin if they kill the demon before they kill the Doomcaller? Maybe they will hesitate to fight the new Doomcaller, knowing that they will have to replace it? Maybe there must always be a Doomcaller.
This was kinda the plan I was going with to make it feel less cheap for them. I was thinking about having the Doomcaller return as a kind of hybrid statblock with some abilities of a Revenant. Thanks for the input brother, didn't want it to feel like a total scam for the guy who sacrificed his character!
The Paladin is definitely going to return as an undead, and I think I'm going to give the guy's new PC a chance to liberate his old PC from the Doomcaller's control.
Edit: For some clarity, the Doomcaller isn't actually meant to be a powerful opponent. If it got caught in a fair fight, it'd get mopped, and it knows it, hence why it uses illusions and future-sight to fight foes. It's benefit from feigning death is that it can then act without the PC's hindering it.
I don't think it's too harsh. They took a gamble and it didn't go their way, they also seem at peace with the character dieing so I don't know if I'd save them, they may not want to play a paladin any more. I'd let them play what they want and maybe give some small advantage against the doom caller to mark the sacrifice. In other words they took a gamble and bet what they were willing to lose it didn't go their way and they can play again but I wouldn't give them the jack pot (aka kill the doom caller) simply because they payed allot.
As for specifics I'd go with the doomcaller faked their death and is alive but it resulted in the paladin cursing them or becoming a lingering spirit. This could either be because the demon king was unhappy with being disturbed so punished the doom caller or the paladins devotion allows their spirit to linger by their own will. This could have a few manifestations
The paladin could haunt the room they fought the doom caller giving them some disadvantage in that room or preventing them from entering it.
Some of the damage the paladin did cannot be healed, created a vulnerability on the doom caller or prevents them using certain abilities.
The paladins spirit could some how assist fighting the doom caller for example invoking their name may give a player a smite
Every illusion spell in the game has a save to determine whether or not the PC can determine it is an illusion. The PC should have had a chance to determine if it was an illusion or not.
Also RAW being invisible does not prevent you from being noticed. Perception includes sounds etc. So once again Paladin should have a chance to notice the doomcaller (or someone else in the room)
The doomcaller seems to not be that important to the campaign. I would just give it to the PCs and not have let the doomcaller escape death.
Did the doomcaller have spells left? Or did you just say that he did to let him escape/live?
This seems like you want the NPC Villian to live, when in came he really should have died. And it makes a better story for the players.
Every illusion spell in the game has a save to determine whether or not the PC can determine it is an illusion. The PC should have had a chance to determine if it was an illusion or not.
Illusions don't have a save they have a check which means that a player needs to choose to take it. This is because if you have the player roll automatically you always give away that there is an illusion regardless of the roll, players know when they fail saves.
That said hitting an illusion reveals it to be false without a check by default, you don't even need to roll an attack as they have no ac. The function of illusions in 5e is basically to waste time. I know some systems/ monster add an ability to make a deception check to convince a target it is real. I don't think the doom caller has anything like that but I don't have access to the book.
Also RAW being invisible does not prevent you from being noticed. Perception includes sounds etc. So once again Paladin should have a chance to notice the doomcaller (or someone else in the room)
As for invisibility its true it doesn't prevent you being noticed because that is a function of a hide action. The hiding creature makes a check against the perception DC of the target as part of the hide action for the same reason illusions are a check. A seeking creature can choose to take an action to search and make a perception check if they wish but they do not automatically get one unless an ability says so. Invisibility makes it so a hiding check can be made without cover and abilities based on sight cannot be used to enhance checks or dcs. The doom caller should be presumed to be hiding as it would be silly to say they cast invisibility with the intention of being hidden but neglected to hide.
So in terms of fairness all that might have been missing is a deception check to see if the fake death from the illusion was convincing or a description of the illusion dissipating that made it clearer it was an illusion. I think the intention was that the description of the doom caller disappearing as if it was nothing was meant to be a diagetic explanation that it was an illusion that the player ignored possibly because they were so low hp they knew they'd die any way. In other words if the player is clever they already know they failed and just ran with it, they may not want to play the paladin any more.
So at least Major image doesn't grant a save. What it does specifically say is that any physical intervention reveals it to be an illusion. So no roll would have been required at that point.
This still feels like an attempt to screw over the player and keep a villian alive who is probably better served being dead.
I dislike the whole direction this went in - its not a question so much of mean vs not mean its a question of do you want to encourage creativity in game play and not breed as has been stated above "us vs them" mentality.
I will never put or allow a player to put themselves in a situation where I as the DM hard counter just to kill off a character. I do not see the benefit in that course of action.
There should always be a chance for the player / group to win if you set up a single player kill or a TPK - where they do not have a chance to win I do not think your running a good game - it is supposed to be FUN.
The players should always at least have a 50-50 chance to win. Hell you could have said when the paladin got where they should have been through some vagry in the magic he ended up someplace else - he then gets himself back to the party and the adventure continues.
It seems like you just wanted to use a clever trick to kill a player. Most DM's can spot that stuff a mile away when a DM does it in a game we are playing in and most of the folks in my circle strongly disagree with that style of DM'ing.
I should have included in the original post that I did roll a Deception for the doomcaller vs. Passive Perception since the PC did not choose to make a check. 19 Deception vs. 11 passive was the result.
My players are well aware that monsters in my games fight like monster, they are tough as nails, and the ones with high intelligence fight smart.
It seems like you just wanted to use a clever trick to kill a player. Most DM's can spot that stuff a mile away when a DM does it in a game we are playing in and most of the folks in my circle strongly disagree with that style of DM'ing.
I never make it a point to try and kill players, however, the way I run games is also meant to be challenging for my players, they know that, and are OK with that. Monsters are tough as nails, and the intelligent ones fight smart.
I distinctively don't want this result to feel unfair for my players, but at the same time, it is a monster that is designed to fight using trickery and wit over raw power, and in the moment, I believed acting hastily against such a foe should be punishing. I'm just unsure as to how punishing. As of now, my players believe they slain the Doomcaller, and I do intend to bring that villian back, I'm just unsure as to how to do so. I think the illusion thing may have been to punishing, and I may bring the Doomcaller back as an undead. I appreciate the input, brother.
There should always be a chance for the player / group to win if you set up a single player kill or a TPK.
I agree if it's going to be a TPK they should always have a chance, context be damned.
In this situation I did not put the Paladin in that situation. I believe that a player character can put themselves in a lose-lose situation. I would never force one into a lose-lose, but if a PC does that to themselves I believe that action should have consequences. Of course, there were actions the Paladin could have taken to up his odds, but ultimately, I believe cause and effect is the nature of this game, and sometimes a cause has a negative effect.
And even if it is just your 2 cents, I believe it's valuable to share thoughts on this game, so thanks again for the input brother.
The doomcaller seems to not be that important to the campaign. I would just give it to the PCs and not have let the doomcaller escape death.
Did the doomcaller have spells left? Or did you just say that he did to let him escape/live?
This seems like you want the NPC Villian to live, when in came he really should have died. And it makes a better story for the players.
He had plenty of spell slots left, he used 9th for the Gate, but besides that he had all 7th-8th before entering the gate, and only used one 6th for Disintegrate.
And yeah, I kind of do want this villian to return. He's been a long running threat hiding in the background. For a while they've known he was bad news, but this was his debut fight for the PCs. If we want to talk making a good story for the players (I have endgame plans for this villian), I would argue that a recurring villian is far more impactful, and creates more emotional investment in a fight.
I also want to be clear, I never have intent to kill a PC, and never put my players in Lose-Lose situations, but I also believe they can put themselves in those situations. While this wasn't necessarily lose-lose, as the Paladin could've done more in this situation, ( he also had low passive perception to contest the Doomcallers high deception) I can see how it would feel that way for the player, and I'm here trying to find a way to ensure he doesn't feel cheated. I appreciate the input on the aftermath.
It seems like you just wanted to use a clever trick to kill a player. Most DM's can spot that stuff a mile away when a DM does it in a game we are playing in and most of the folks in my circle strongly disagree with that style of DM'ing.
I never make it a point to try and kill players, however, the way I run games is also meant to be challenging for my players, they know that, and are OK with that. Monsters are tough as nails, and the intelligent ones fight smart.
I distinctively don't want this result to feel unfair for my players, but at the same time, it is a monster that is designed to fight using trickery and wit over raw power, and in the moment, I believed acting hastily against such a foe should be punishing. I'm just unsure as to how punishing. As of now, my players believe they slain the Doomcaller, and I do intend to bring that villian back, I'm just unsure as to how to do so. I think the illusion thing may have been to punishing, and I may bring the Doomcaller back as an undead. I appreciate the input, brother.
My first question is, did the monster have the spell slots/abilities left to cast those spells? 2nd how long did the paladin take to go after him?
Arcane Gate is concentration, Major imagine is also concentration. Meaning if the Paladin walked through the arcane Gate the doomcaller shouldn't have been able to cast the illusion (unless the doomcaller has a special feature that allows it.)
But also the doomcaller just acted so the paladin walking in shouldn't need to reroll initiative because combat was still in progress.
The next question if more than six seconds passed is why the doomcaller left the portal open to begin with.
I would say that the doomcaller should go one of two routes: A. he dies, or B. he gets cursed to become an undead. There could also be a route C, in which the doomcaller stays alive, but in the final fight, the paladin's spirit comes in out of nowhere, goes anger mode, and brutally kills the doomcaller.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I make strange but effective solutions to your DM problems!
As someone who's used recurring villains, yes, it does work really well.
My recommendation to you would be that the party's efforts have a lasting effect on the Doomcaller, but that the Doomcaller is not dealt with entirely.
I used this to massive effect in my campaign. The party were pursued by a recurring villain called Throwdown - an Ettin (Throw and Down) artificer who was also a barbarian (two heads, after all).
In his first fight with them, the Warlock used Hold Monster on him, and he just escaped to fight again when the whole circus tent burnt down around them.
In their next encounter, he had helmets which gave him a legendary resistance to those effects, and he offered one of the party a deal to clear their debt (it was his circus tent they burnt down), and the party member swindled him out of the magic item he wanted.
In their next encounter, Throwdown wasn't taking prisoners - he slapped a rune of returning on the cleric and threw him out of the window of a tall tower. The cleric dispelled the rune and escaped.
He then pursued them, and in the climactic fight scene on board moving chariots and wagon,s the Paladin-Artificer landed a killing blow to one of his necks, and he fell backwards off the wagon. They searched for his corpse, but it was gone.
When they scryed on him later, they found him in a stone basement by a roaring fire, muttering about how he was going to "warm you up, make you better", and rocking to himself. The Artificer realised that armourer armour replaces lost limbs, and they realised that they had only killed half of him - and that the other half was descending into madness.
When they scryed again (6 months later, they died for a while) one head (inside the helmet) is a skull. Throwdown is working on something, in a room with huge doors. They realise that their main BBEG is a necromantic giant, and that Throwdown now appears to be in league with him.
So yeah, the recurrign villain works, provided that the party has an effect on them.
So, in your case, I would recommend:
The paladin has a chance to kill him, and if he does, the Doomcaller is slain, but the Paladin will replace him. This, to me, is the best option - it gives Lucius the Eternal vibes (warhammer 40k) and cements the Doomcaller as an ever-present threat until the demon is killed, without making him immune to the partys attackes and efforts.
The paladin maims the Doomcaller, causing a physical change in him - perhaps he becomes more demonic, or mutates, or is repaired mechanically. The Doomcaller returns, but is now different, because of what the party did.
I recommend against the bait & "psych!" plan you have now, because I cannot see how the Doomcaller would know to do this - especially if he is as powerful as you imply - without the DM Meta Knowledge that the players are planning this.
Can you see a scenario in which saying "actually, the paladin was tricked, and died for nothing" is anything but a feels-bad moment for the party. It feels railroady and, as said before, like the DM is fighting against the players, and doesn't want the cool character to die, so it doesn't, so there.
I think an easy solution would be the doomcaller dies. But he is in the Abyss, so it also makes sense his soul is trapped there. The paladin shouldnt die. But become a slave to the demon.
Eventually the party learns this and needs to retrieve their fallen companion and learn the doomweaver has become a demonic creature.
The paladin maims the Doomcaller, causing a physical change in him - perhaps he becomes more demonic, or mutates, or is repaired mechanically. The Doomcaller returns, but is now different, because of what the party did.
This is exactly what I was thinking having read the responses here. In my game, demon's slain in the Abyss leave a corpse, so I was thinking having the Doomcaller return as an undead with new abilities. Appreciate the help, brother!
Some of the damage the paladin did cannot be healed, created a vulnerability on the doom caller or prevents them using certain abilities.
I like this idea, the Paladin's final hit was slashing damage from a magic greatsword, so maybe I'll have the Doomcaller return as an undead with vulnerability to slashing damage from magic weapons. Good thoughts, I appreciate it!
Now obviously, the Doomcaller shouldn't be dead, and I have a rug-pull planned later when they are going to meet this Doomcaller again. But... given a player sacrificed his character for that win, would it be too cruel to take that win away? Or should it be acceptable because they knew damn well it was suicide, knew damn well the Doomcaller was an illusionist, did no checks or truesight, and just charged in recklessly hoping for the best?
It depends on your players, many would be furious if the self-sacrifice of their character (or their friend's character) was for nothing. Others wouldn't care and would treat it as their own foolish mistake. It also depends on what you want your game to be like, do you want your players to be willing to throw caution to the wind and go for dramatic cinematic moment? Or do you want them to be skeptical of everything, being cautious and untrusting of everything you present to them?
This will forever be a memorable moment to your players, how do you want them to remember it?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So I recently ran a boss fight with my players, it was a short double boss against a Doomcaller from Lairs of Etharis with some added Illusion and information gathering spells and a couple feats, and it's Goristro bodyguard.
To preface, the this doomcaller is a particularly notable recurring villian in my campaign, but moreso a threat operating in the background than as a BBEG. The party knew that he used illusions, magic, and an ability to glimpse the future to keep the tides of combat in his favor.
The Doomcaller's goal of this fight was to force the party to surrender the campaigns MacGuffin, which the Doomcaller needs to bring the BBEG into the material plane.
My players obviously refuse to hand over the item, and combat ensues, they struggle with the Goristro a bit while hunting down the Doomcaller, who is using invisibility and illusions to give the party hell. They have a few close calls, but eventually force the Doomcaller and his Goristro into a tactical retreat using the Gate spell.
The Doomcaller retreats to a demon lord in the Abyss with the spell, and the party uses a Commune to ask if they can kill the Doomcaller without themselves dying. To which, the answer they got was no. Pretty beaten up after the boss fight, but confident he could kill the Doomcaller in a single hit, the Paladin posed the idea to the group thar he could go after the Doomcaller. If he got lucky and won initiative, he would kill the Doomcaller in one hit, then die to the demon lord is served. The party agreed to the idea, and said their goodbyes as the Paladin sets off on his suicide mission.
Here's where I want to know if this is too mean.
While this is happening, the Doomcaller is setting a Programmed Illusion to trigger when the Paladin enters, and, upon being hit, display a gruesome death for the Illusion, meanwhile the real Doomcaller is using invisibility to hide once more. The Paladin goes in, no use of truesight or checks to test for illusions, wins initiative, gets his hit, which I specifically described as "felt like cutting through air as the demon's body falls in twain". Believing he had killed the Doomcaller, with 7 HP remaining, he accepts his death to the Demon Lord whose throne room he was warped to.
Now obviously, the Doomcaller shouldn't be dead, and I have a rug-pull planned later when they are going to meet this Doomcaller again. But... given a player sacrificed his character for that win, would it be too cruel to take that win away? Or should it be acceptable because they knew damn well it was suicide, knew damn well the Doomcaller was an illusionist, did no checks or truesight, and just charged in recklessly hoping for the best?
What do you think?
(Edit: autocorrect can't type)
Going on a solo mission like that is basically asking for it.
What I would do is give the player the win, say they killed the doomcaller, start the fade to black and have the demon lord begin to suck the soul out of the PC. Let the party believe they killed the thing regardless of whether they did or it was an illusion. Saying nothing happens is huge bummer.
From here you can say the soul of the dead PC was used to reincarnate the doomcaller. When they see it again, it has the face of the dead PC.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The biggest worry here is that when the party made this plan, would the Doomcaller know about it?
If you're using DM knowledge to hard-counter a player tactic, you're metagaming to the worst degree, and it risks breeding an "us vs them" mentality with your players. It also means they will stop sharing their plans with you, because they will think that this is tantamount to telling their enemy what they are going to do.
So ask yourself, if the Doomcaller is so powerful, why would it pretend to die?
A far better option would be to let the paladin attempt their plan, and let in play out as the dice decree. Then, instead of the paladin being lost eternally, have them return as a death knight and replacement for the Doomcaller. Have the player make a new character, but the old one will be used against the party in the future. Thus the Doomcaller is killed, as planned (or not, if the dice fail them) and you can say "Yes, but" instead of "haha, didn't work". Maybe the Doomcaller is a role, and it is taken on by whomever slays the Doomcaller? Maybe the party can free the paladin if they kill the demon before they kill the Doomcaller? Maybe they will hesitate to fight the new Doomcaller, knowing that they will have to replace it? Maybe there must always be a Doomcaller.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
This was kinda the plan I was going with to make it feel less cheap for them. I was thinking about having the Doomcaller return as a kind of hybrid statblock with some abilities of a Revenant. Thanks for the input brother, didn't want it to feel like a total scam for the guy who sacrificed his character!
The Paladin is definitely going to return as an undead, and I think I'm going to give the guy's new PC a chance to liberate his old PC from the Doomcaller's control.
Edit: For some clarity, the Doomcaller isn't actually meant to be a powerful opponent. If it got caught in a fair fight, it'd get mopped, and it knows it, hence why it uses illusions and future-sight to fight foes. It's benefit from feigning death is that it can then act without the PC's hindering it.
I don't think it's too harsh. They took a gamble and it didn't go their way, they also seem at peace with the character dieing so I don't know if I'd save them, they may not want to play a paladin any more. I'd let them play what they want and maybe give some small advantage against the doom caller to mark the sacrifice. In other words they took a gamble and bet what they were willing to lose it didn't go their way and they can play again but I wouldn't give them the jack pot (aka kill the doom caller) simply because they payed allot.
As for specifics I'd go with the doomcaller faked their death and is alive but it resulted in the paladin cursing them or becoming a lingering spirit. This could either be because the demon king was unhappy with being disturbed so punished the doom caller or the paladins devotion allows their spirit to linger by their own will. This could have a few manifestations
Every illusion spell in the game has a save to determine whether or not the PC can determine it is an illusion. The PC should have had a chance to determine if it was an illusion or not.
Also RAW being invisible does not prevent you from being noticed. Perception includes sounds etc. So once again Paladin should have a chance to notice the doomcaller (or someone else in the room)
The doomcaller seems to not be that important to the campaign. I would just give it to the PCs and not have let the doomcaller escape death.
Did the doomcaller have spells left? Or did you just say that he did to let him escape/live?
This seems like you want the NPC Villian to live, when in came he really should have died. And it makes a better story for the players.
Illusions don't have a save they have a check which means that a player needs to choose to take it. This is because if you have the player roll automatically you always give away that there is an illusion regardless of the roll, players know when they fail saves.
That said hitting an illusion reveals it to be false without a check by default, you don't even need to roll an attack as they have no ac. The function of illusions in 5e is basically to waste time. I know some systems/ monster add an ability to make a deception check to convince a target it is real. I don't think the doom caller has anything like that but I don't have access to the book.
As for invisibility its true it doesn't prevent you being noticed because that is a function of a hide action. The hiding creature makes a check against the perception DC of the target as part of the hide action for the same reason illusions are a check. A seeking creature can choose to take an action to search and make a perception check if they wish but they do not automatically get one unless an ability says so. Invisibility makes it so a hiding check can be made without cover and abilities based on sight cannot be used to enhance checks or dcs. The doom caller should be presumed to be hiding as it would be silly to say they cast invisibility with the intention of being hidden but neglected to hide.
So in terms of fairness all that might have been missing is a deception check to see if the fake death from the illusion was convincing or a description of the illusion dissipating that made it clearer it was an illusion. I think the intention was that the description of the doom caller disappearing as if it was nothing was meant to be a diagetic explanation that it was an illusion that the player ignored possibly because they were so low hp they knew they'd die any way. In other words if the player is clever they already know they failed and just ran with it, they may not want to play the paladin any more.
So at least Major image doesn't grant a save. What it does specifically say is that any physical intervention reveals it to be an illusion. So no roll would have been required at that point.
This still feels like an attempt to screw over the player and keep a villian alive who is probably better served being dead.
I dislike the whole direction this went in - its not a question so much of mean vs not mean its a question of do you want to encourage creativity in game play and not breed as has been stated above "us vs them" mentality.
I will never put or allow a player to put themselves in a situation where I as the DM hard counter just to kill off a character. I do not see the benefit in that course of action.
There should always be a chance for the player / group to win if you set up a single player kill or a TPK - where they do not have a chance to win I do not think your running a good game - it is supposed to be FUN.
The players should always at least have a 50-50 chance to win. Hell you could have said when the paladin got where they should have been through some vagry in the magic he ended up someplace else - he then gets himself back to the party and the adventure continues.
It seems like you just wanted to use a clever trick to kill a player. Most DM's can spot that stuff a mile away when a DM does it in a game we are playing in and most of the folks in my circle strongly disagree with that style of DM'ing.
$.02
I should have included in the original post that I did roll a Deception for the doomcaller vs. Passive Perception since the PC did not choose to make a check. 19 Deception vs. 11 passive was the result.
My players are well aware that monsters in my games fight like monster, they are tough as nails, and the ones with high intelligence fight smart.
I never make it a point to try and kill players, however, the way I run games is also meant to be challenging for my players, they know that, and are OK with that. Monsters are tough as nails, and the intelligent ones fight smart.
I distinctively don't want this result to feel unfair for my players, but at the same time, it is a monster that is designed to fight using trickery and wit over raw power, and in the moment, I believed acting hastily against such a foe should be punishing. I'm just unsure as to how punishing. As of now, my players believe they slain the Doomcaller, and I do intend to bring that villian back, I'm just unsure as to how to do so. I think the illusion thing may have been to punishing, and I may bring the Doomcaller back as an undead. I appreciate the input, brother.
I agree if it's going to be a TPK they should always have a chance, context be damned.
In this situation I did not put the Paladin in that situation. I believe that a player character can put themselves in a lose-lose situation. I would never force one into a lose-lose, but if a PC does that to themselves I believe that action should have consequences. Of course, there were actions the Paladin could have taken to up his odds, but ultimately, I believe cause and effect is the nature of this game, and sometimes a cause has a negative effect.
And even if it is just your 2 cents, I believe it's valuable to share thoughts on this game, so thanks again for the input brother.
He had plenty of spell slots left, he used 9th for the Gate, but besides that he had all 7th-8th before entering the gate, and only used one 6th for Disintegrate.
And yeah, I kind of do want this villian to return. He's been a long running threat hiding in the background. For a while they've known he was bad news, but this was his debut fight for the PCs. If we want to talk making a good story for the players (I have endgame plans for this villian), I would argue that a recurring villian is far more impactful, and creates more emotional investment in a fight.
I also want to be clear, I never have intent to kill a PC, and never put my players in Lose-Lose situations, but I also believe they can put themselves in those situations. While this wasn't necessarily lose-lose, as the Paladin could've done more in this situation, ( he also had low passive perception to contest the Doomcallers high deception) I can see how it would feel that way for the player, and I'm here trying to find a way to ensure he doesn't feel cheated. I appreciate the input on the aftermath.
My first question is, did the monster have the spell slots/abilities left to cast those spells? 2nd how long did the paladin take to go after him?
Arcane Gate is concentration, Major imagine is also concentration. Meaning if the Paladin walked through the arcane Gate the doomcaller shouldn't have been able to cast the illusion (unless the doomcaller has a special feature that allows it.)
But also the doomcaller just acted so the paladin walking in shouldn't need to reroll initiative because combat was still in progress.
The next question if more than six seconds passed is why the doomcaller left the portal open to begin with.
I would say that the doomcaller should go one of two routes: A. he dies, or B. he gets cursed to become an undead. There could also be a route C, in which the doomcaller stays alive, but in the final fight, the paladin's spirit comes in out of nowhere, goes anger mode, and brutally kills the doomcaller.
I make strange but effective solutions to your DM problems!
Homebrew: Monsters Species Spells Background(s)
I am secretly a green dragon.
Greater Wills
As someone who's used recurring villains, yes, it does work really well.
My recommendation to you would be that the party's efforts have a lasting effect on the Doomcaller, but that the Doomcaller is not dealt with entirely.
I used this to massive effect in my campaign. The party were pursued by a recurring villain called Throwdown - an Ettin (Throw and Down) artificer who was also a barbarian (two heads, after all).
In his first fight with them, the Warlock used Hold Monster on him, and he just escaped to fight again when the whole circus tent burnt down around them.
In their next encounter, he had helmets which gave him a legendary resistance to those effects, and he offered one of the party a deal to clear their debt (it was his circus tent they burnt down), and the party member swindled him out of the magic item he wanted.
In their next encounter, Throwdown wasn't taking prisoners - he slapped a rune of returning on the cleric and threw him out of the window of a tall tower. The cleric dispelled the rune and escaped.
He then pursued them, and in the climactic fight scene on board moving chariots and wagon,s the Paladin-Artificer landed a killing blow to one of his necks, and he fell backwards off the wagon. They searched for his corpse, but it was gone.
When they scryed on him later, they found him in a stone basement by a roaring fire, muttering about how he was going to "warm you up, make you better", and rocking to himself. The Artificer realised that armourer armour replaces lost limbs, and they realised that they had only killed half of him - and that the other half was descending into madness.
When they scryed again (6 months later, they died for a while) one head (inside the helmet) is a skull. Throwdown is working on something, in a room with huge doors. They realise that their main BBEG is a necromantic giant, and that Throwdown now appears to be in league with him.
So yeah, the recurrign villain works, provided that the party has an effect on them.
So, in your case, I would recommend:
I recommend against the bait & "psych!" plan you have now, because I cannot see how the Doomcaller would know to do this - especially if he is as powerful as you imply - without the DM Meta Knowledge that the players are planning this.
Can you see a scenario in which saying "actually, the paladin was tricked, and died for nothing" is anything but a feels-bad moment for the party. It feels railroady and, as said before, like the DM is fighting against the players, and doesn't want the cool character to die, so it doesn't, so there.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
I think an easy solution would be the doomcaller dies. But he is in the Abyss, so it also makes sense his soul is trapped there. The paladin shouldnt die. But become a slave to the demon.
Eventually the party learns this and needs to retrieve their fallen companion and learn the doomweaver has become a demonic creature.
This is exactly what I was thinking having read the responses here. In my game, demon's slain in the Abyss leave a corpse, so I was thinking having the Doomcaller return as an undead with new abilities. Appreciate the help, brother!
I like this idea, the Paladin's final hit was slashing damage from a magic greatsword, so maybe I'll have the Doomcaller return as an undead with vulnerability to slashing damage from magic weapons. Good thoughts, I appreciate it!
It depends on your players, many would be furious if the self-sacrifice of their character (or their friend's character) was for nothing. Others wouldn't care and would treat it as their own foolish mistake. It also depends on what you want your game to be like, do you want your players to be willing to throw caution to the wind and go for dramatic cinematic moment? Or do you want them to be skeptical of everything, being cautious and untrusting of everything you present to them?
This will forever be a memorable moment to your players, how do you want them to remember it?