I'm preparing to run Phandelver and Below The Shattered Obelisk. I've been watching groups on YouTube play through the adventure and something has struck me as odd.
Every group I've seen play starts the adventure by being hired by Gundren Rockseeker who the text says is a "friend." Then they play through the goblin ambush and the Cragmaw Hideout. I can't remember if all of them did this, but from what I remember Sildar Hallwinter dies with most of these groups. Then they continue on to Phandalin.
Here's the part that I don't get. They know their FRIEND has been taken. If Sildar would have lived he would know at least the name of Cragmaw Castle and that the goblins wanted the dwarf and his map. But if Sildar doesn't live, unless the PCs captured a goblin and got them to talk, they don't have any direction as to where to find Gundren. But they could at least start asking people around town. But all these groups I've watched play don't do that. They start talking to people in Phandalin and start taking on side quests without a thought about Gundren. They hear the Redbrands are causing trouble in town and the PCs go after them.
If the PCs would talk to Qelline Alderleaf, she knows a local druid who knows the region well. That druid would know where Cragmaw Castle is. All it would take is the PCs asking around town for a day and they would probably talk to Qeulline. Then they'd have to go to Thundertree to find the druid. I suppose if Sildar died and they didn't question any goblins, then they won't even know about Cragmaw Castle to ask about it. But it still seems like they would be TRYING at least to find Gundren. The Redbrands are there and they aren't going anywhere until the PCs (or somebody) does something about it. What I mean is, they can wait. A FRIEND has been taken by savage goblins. This seems like it would be the priority for the PCs.
Why then are all these other groups that play this adventure just totally forgetting about Gundren? Do they need to be higher level before they take on Cragmaw Castle? I'm starting my group at 2nd level and advancing them to 3rd level right after the Cragmaw Hideout. Progression will slow a little after that, but they would be 3rd level going to Cragmaw Castle if they wanted to go after their friend before doing all kinds of stupid side quests for people they just met. None of the side quests matter. None are time sensitive. Maybe the woman and her children that have been taken by the Redbrands is pressing, but it still seems like the PCs would owe their loyalty to a friend before strangers.
Yes, you're missing the way the adventure is designed. Level 3 at Cragmaw Cave is to move the player characters on too fast if they are new. Right at the beginning of Chapter Two states:
'The Characters should be 2nd level when the chapter begins. The Characters gain a level when they finish exploring the Redbrand Hideout under Tresendar Manor'
The adventure is on milestone, not XP. Likewise Chapter 3 means that the character level to level 4 when they confront King Grol in the castle.
On finding Gundren
Sildar doesn't know where Gundren might have been sent (Page 23). Even then, Sildar has to live...which is a bit of a task given that one goblin has Sildar (with 1hp) as a human shield and bargaining chip.
Klarg or the Goblins might be persuaded to reveal the 'basic directions' of Cragmaw Castle (page 18) but that requires an alive Klarg or Goblin, and the party to succeed in an interrogation of some kind. Even then if I told you 'about twenty miles northeast in the woods' do you think that's enough to find the place without an actual search or more precise information?
Cragmaw Castle isn't the original name of the castle it was originally built by a human Wizard names Phalorm (page 58), so the druid you refer to might know the location you mean but won't know it as Cragmaw Castle. Probably they'd know the castle as Phalorm's castle or some such.
The supply crates in the Cragmaw Cave exist for the purpose of pushing the characters toward the town of Phandalin. So many people miss this detail. They bear the symbol of the Lionshield Coster. (Page 24) These supplies are meant to be a 'red herring' clue to lead the party on toward Phandalin.
Likewise the Redbrands are meant to be a red herring lead. It's poorly written in the adventure but my assumed purpose of the Redbrands is two-fold. They introduce the lead of the Black Spider - this is plant and payoff for the big boss of Wave Echo Cave. The second purpose is to increase player experience in an easier way. The Redbrands serve as a legitimate possibility that they might be who Klarg is working for (remember the goblins don't like that Klarg is apparently working with a non-goblin).
Reidorth (the druid) does know the land as you point out, but don't forget he's up in Thundertree. So, even if we assume that the players can get the information from the druid, he's several day's travel away in Thundertree.
You are of course right that many of the quests are essentially busy-work. The side quests of Chapter Three are tedious. In my most recent run of the game I actually interweaved Lost Mine of Phendelver with Dragon of Icespire Peak and changed up some details. It should be understood however, that the purpose of Lost Mine of Phandelver was originally written as an introduction. Each section is introducing a feature of the game overall. Chaper 1 is dealing with the basics of combat and environmental effects. Chapter 2 is dealing with the socialisation and built environment. Chapter 3 is modelling side quests. Chapter 4 is dealing with the good old fashioned dungeon run. So part of the reason it seems disjointed is that it's trying to do an awful lot at once.
Don't forget also that the adventure hook is that your party is hired to deliver the goods to Phandalin - he doesn't actually have to be more than a patron or employer.
I agree that if they are set on rescuing a friend, they would rush to Cragmaw. However, it's important that you recognise that the castle is very well defended. If run as it is written, then they're facing ranged weapons from the arrow slits in the castle walls. So they'll have lost HP prior to entering the castle unless they are very sneaky. If the players are new to the game, they're probably not going to have learn in a more 'safe' way how best to engage in combat and stealth around a location like the castle. This is the purpose of Redbrand Hideout. It's a 'training' dungeon.
At the end of the day though, it's your call as a GM. If you want to lead them straight to Cragmaw, go for it! That's cool. Do what works for your table. My comments above are just reiterating and explaining the way the adventure is written more than anything else.
Hello!
I'm preparing to run Phandelver and Below The Shattered Obelisk. I've been watching groups on YouTube play through the adventure and something has struck me as odd.
Every group I've seen play starts the adventure by being hired by Gundren Rockseeker who the text says is a "friend." Then they play through the goblin ambush and the Cragmaw Hideout. I can't remember if all of them did this, but from what I remember Sildar Hallwinter dies with most of these groups. Then they continue on to Phandalin.
Here's the part that I don't get. They know their FRIEND has been taken. If Sildar would have lived he would know at least the name of Cragmaw Castle and that the goblins wanted the dwarf and his map. But if Sildar doesn't live, unless the PCs captured a goblin and got them to talk, they don't have any direction as to where to find Gundren. But they could at least start asking people around town. But all these groups I've watched play don't do that. They start talking to people in Phandalin and start taking on side quests without a thought about Gundren. They hear the Redbrands are causing trouble in town and the PCs go after them.
If the PCs would talk to Qelline Alderleaf, she knows a local druid who knows the region well. That druid would know where Cragmaw Castle is. All it would take is the PCs asking around town for a day and they would probably talk to Qeulline. Then they'd have to go to Thundertree to find the druid. I suppose if Sildar died and they didn't question any goblins, then they won't even know about Cragmaw Castle to ask about it. But it still seems like they would be TRYING at least to find Gundren. The Redbrands are there and they aren't going anywhere until the PCs (or somebody) does something about it. What I mean is, they can wait. A FRIEND has been taken by savage goblins. This seems like it would be the priority for the PCs.
Why then are all these other groups that play this adventure just totally forgetting about Gundren? Do they need to be higher level before they take on Cragmaw Castle? I'm starting my group at 2nd level and advancing them to 3rd level right after the Cragmaw Hideout. Progression will slow a little after that, but they would be 3rd level going to Cragmaw Castle if they wanted to go after their friend before doing all kinds of stupid side quests for people they just met. None of the side quests matter. None are time sensitive. Maybe the woman and her children that have been taken by the Redbrands is pressing, but it still seems like the PCs would owe their loyalty to a friend before strangers.
Am I missing something?
How did your group proceed through the events?
Yes, you're missing the way the adventure is designed. Level 3 at Cragmaw Cave is to move the player characters on too fast if they are new. Right at the beginning of Chapter Two states:
'The Characters should be 2nd level when the chapter begins. The Characters gain a level when they finish exploring the Redbrand Hideout under Tresendar Manor'
The adventure is on milestone, not XP. Likewise Chapter 3 means that the character level to level 4 when they confront King Grol in the castle.
On finding Gundren
You are of course right that many of the quests are essentially busy-work. The side quests of Chapter Three are tedious. In my most recent run of the game I actually interweaved Lost Mine of Phendelver with Dragon of Icespire Peak and changed up some details. It should be understood however, that the purpose of Lost Mine of Phandelver was originally written as an introduction. Each section is introducing a feature of the game overall. Chaper 1 is dealing with the basics of combat and environmental effects. Chapter 2 is dealing with the socialisation and built environment. Chapter 3 is modelling side quests. Chapter 4 is dealing with the good old fashioned dungeon run. So part of the reason it seems disjointed is that it's trying to do an awful lot at once.
Don't forget also that the adventure hook is that your party is hired to deliver the goods to Phandalin - he doesn't actually have to be more than a patron or employer.
I agree that if they are set on rescuing a friend, they would rush to Cragmaw. However, it's important that you recognise that the castle is very well defended. If run as it is written, then they're facing ranged weapons from the arrow slits in the castle walls. So they'll have lost HP prior to entering the castle unless they are very sneaky. If the players are new to the game, they're probably not going to have learn in a more 'safe' way how best to engage in combat and stealth around a location like the castle. This is the purpose of Redbrand Hideout. It's a 'training' dungeon.
At the end of the day though, it's your call as a GM. If you want to lead them straight to Cragmaw, go for it! That's cool. Do what works for your table. My comments above are just reiterating and explaining the way the adventure is written more than anything else.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Wow! Thanks for such a thorough response. That helps. I appreciate the time you took to respond. I will take your advice into consideration.
Not a problem - I'm quite fresh off my most recent run of that module and have run it A LOT over the last couple of years!
Good luck with the adventure!
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.