On my campaign last night, one of the players asked if she could use telekinesis on her cloud of daggers, because she wanted to move it around. I concluded it wouldn't work, but that instead she could roll Arcana to try and make a new spell (this has been done before at the table). She rolled high, and the spell was born.
Now I need to balance it!
My theory is that the daggers can be moved up to 30ft., to another point within range, as an action. This should offset the "no saves, take damage" aspect of Cloud of Daggers. Then I want to make it a higher level spell - probably level 4 - so that it does less damage than an equivalent cast of Cloud of Daggers. Finally, I am considering making it require a Dex save when moving, to try and keep it balanced. The final spell I am going for is:
Marva's Hurricane of Daggers
4th-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action Range: 60 feet Components: V, S, M (a sliver of glass) Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You fill the air with spinning daggers in a cube 5 feet on each side, centered on a point you choose within range. A creature takes 4d4 slashing damage when it enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there.
Additionally, as long as you are concentrating on this spell and are within 60ft. of the daggers, you can use your action to move the daggers in a straight line to another point that is both within range and within 30ft. of the daggers. Any creature whose space it moves through must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take damage as though entering the spell's area for the first time.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the damage increases by 2d4 for each slot level above 4th.
What does everyone think? Is this balanced? Comparing it to an upcast cloud of daggers it's worse for damage, but also more versatile. The straight line stops anyone from just spamming it back and forth to get loads of damage on someone too, and I'm not doing half damage on a save, because that would be too much!
Have you looked at the 2024 Player's Handbook at all? The updated version of Cloud of Daggers allows teleporting the cloud up to 30 feet as an action on your turn.
Have you looked at the 2024 Player's Handbook at all? The updated version of Cloud of Daggers allows teleporting the cloud up to 30 feet as an action on your turn.
While true, because the damage is taken on ending a turn in the cloud, rather than starting, it doesn't have the double-hit potential of this version.
Have you looked at the 2024 Player's Handbook at all? The updated version of Cloud of Daggers allows teleporting the cloud up to 30 feet as an action on your turn.
While true, because the damage is taken on ending a turn in the cloud, rather than starting, it doesn't have the double-hit potential of this version.
I'm not sure what you mean by "double-hit potential". The 2024 version of Cloud of Daggers deals damage:
when the spell is cast
when a creature enters the area
when a creature ends its turn in the area
when the area is moved into a creature's space
It is limited to hitting the same creature once per turn, but it can hit the same creature multiple times per round on different turns.
My player really wanted to drag the cloud, which I appreciate means it has potential to hit a lot of people, but at the same time, it uses the action (and I've limited it to a straight line, to make it less abusable!)
Given the higher spell level, does this sound reasonable?
I'm not sure what you mean by "double-hit potential".
Move cloud onto a creature's space (it takes damage), then at start of creature's turn it takes damage again. In the 2024 rules the creature can avoid the second damage hit by moving out of the cloud before the end of its turn.
I'm not sure what you mean by "double-hit potential".
Move cloud onto a creature's space (it takes damage), then at start of creature's turn it takes damage again. In the 2024 rules the creature can avoid the second damage hit by moving out of the cloud before the end of its turn.
Ah, I see. Yeah, that is a limitation of the new version, and lifting could be appropriate for a higher-level spell.
Sadly, only one of my players have chosen to utilise this tool. However, what they came up with is AWESOME. Sadly, the 2024 DMG has cut a lot of the workshop stuff from the 2014 that was really cool and useful. I'd highly recommend using the Create a Spell section as a guide and working with the player to craft the spell they're hoping for. So the level 4 spell you're looking at would be a little more powerful that you're suggesting.
With the original spell, the official stuff made a concession down to 4d4 instead of 4d6 because of the nature of this thing being persistent. I'd mirror this design by making the spell you suggest 6 dice instead of 7 suggested for level 4 to account for being able to be moved, and a d4 instead of d6 for the persistence effect of the cloud staying there. So it should be 6d4 at level 4.
Basically my experience working with the creating spells, and players designing new spells has been that for concentration effects (persistence) knock off a dice. If you're going to add something else (like being able to move the area of effect) reduce the dice by one. For every thing that gets added to a spell something ought to be lowered or removed to maintain the balance.
Storm of Daggers (5th level conjuration) V S M (A needle)
Casting time: 1 Action Range: 60 ft. Duration. Concentration, up to 1 minute.
You produce a 20 ft. by 20 ft. cyclone of flying knives at a point you can see within range. A creature takes 5d8 slashing damage when it enters the spells radius for the first time on a turn or starts their turn there. You may move the storm up to 20 ft in any direction as a bonus action. If you end your turn greater than 60 ft. from the storm, the spell ends.
At higher levels. When you cast this spell with a 6th level slot or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for every level above 5th.
Hey all!
On my campaign last night, one of the players asked if she could use telekinesis on her cloud of daggers, because she wanted to move it around. I concluded it wouldn't work, but that instead she could roll Arcana to try and make a new spell (this has been done before at the table). She rolled high, and the spell was born.
Now I need to balance it!
My theory is that the daggers can be moved up to 30ft., to another point within range, as an action. This should offset the "no saves, take damage" aspect of Cloud of Daggers. Then I want to make it a higher level spell - probably level 4 - so that it does less damage than an equivalent cast of Cloud of Daggers. Finally, I am considering making it require a Dex save when moving, to try and keep it balanced. The final spell I am going for is:
Marva's Hurricane of Daggers
4th-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a sliver of glass)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You fill the air with spinning daggers in a cube 5 feet on each side, centered on a point you choose within range. A creature takes 4d4 slashing damage when it enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there.
Additionally, as long as you are concentrating on this spell and are within 60ft. of the daggers, you can use your action to move the daggers in a straight line to another point that is both within range and within 30ft. of the daggers. Any creature whose space it moves through must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take damage as though entering the spell's area for the first time.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the damage increases by 2d4 for each slot level above 4th.
What does everyone think? Is this balanced? Comparing it to an upcast cloud of daggers it's worse for damage, but also more versatile. The straight line stops anyone from just spamming it back and forth to get loads of damage on someone too, and I'm not doing half damage on a save, because that would be too much!
Thoughts?
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
Have you looked at the 2024 Player's Handbook at all? The updated version of Cloud of Daggers allows teleporting the cloud up to 30 feet as an action on your turn.
While true, because the damage is taken on ending a turn in the cloud, rather than starting, it doesn't have the double-hit potential of this version.
I'm not sure what you mean by "double-hit potential". The 2024 version of Cloud of Daggers deals damage:
It is limited to hitting the same creature once per turn, but it can hit the same creature multiple times per round on different turns.
Good info, thanks!
My player really wanted to drag the cloud, which I appreciate means it has potential to hit a lot of people, but at the same time, it uses the action (and I've limited it to a straight line, to make it less abusable!)
Given the higher spell level, does this sound reasonable?
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
Move cloud onto a creature's space (it takes damage), then at start of creature's turn it takes damage again. In the 2024 rules the creature can avoid the second damage hit by moving out of the cloud before the end of its turn.
Ah, I see. Yeah, that is a limitation of the new version, and lifting could be appropriate for a higher-level spell.
Have you looked at moonbeam? Seems like a good template for what you’re doing.
In my latest campaign setting I've given players the option of a downtime activity. The activity is straight from the Dungeon Masters Guide - Create a Spell: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/dmg-2014/dungeon-masters-workshop#CreatingaSpell
Sadly, only one of my players have chosen to utilise this tool. However, what they came up with is AWESOME. Sadly, the 2024 DMG has cut a lot of the workshop stuff from the 2014 that was really cool and useful. I'd highly recommend using the Create a Spell section as a guide and working with the player to craft the spell they're hoping for. So the level 4 spell you're looking at would be a little more powerful that you're suggesting.
With the original spell, the official stuff made a concession down to 4d4 instead of 4d6 because of the nature of this thing being persistent. I'd mirror this design by making the spell you suggest 6 dice instead of 7 suggested for level 4 to account for being able to be moved, and a d4 instead of d6 for the persistence effect of the cloud staying there. So it should be 6d4 at level 4.
Basically my experience working with the creating spells, and players designing new spells has been that for concentration effects (persistence) knock off a dice. If you're going to add something else (like being able to move the area of effect) reduce the dice by one. For every thing that gets added to a spell something ought to be lowered or removed to maintain the balance.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Storm of Daggers (5th level conjuration) V S M (A needle)
Casting time: 1 Action Range: 60 ft. Duration. Concentration, up to 1 minute.
You produce a 20 ft. by 20 ft. cyclone of flying knives at a point you can see within range. A creature takes 5d8 slashing damage when it enters the spells radius for the first time on a turn or starts their turn there. You may move the storm up to 20 ft in any direction as a bonus action. If you end your turn greater than 60 ft. from the storm, the spell ends.
At higher levels. When you cast this spell with a 6th level slot or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for every level above 5th.
Something like this?
Best Spells: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2190706-applause, https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2047204-big-ol-switcheroo, https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2188701-cerwicks-copper-cables
Best Feats: https://www.dndbeyond.com/feats/1512461-soapbox-revised
Best Monsters: https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/3775489-jar-jar-binks, https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/3860024-spare-ribs