I'm new in the DM seat, I've only run a one-shot before, now I'm running a mini adventure in three sessions. We've got a party of 5 level 5 characters who are up against their first combat. (Bard, Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Ranger)
This is not a combat heavy adventure and as it's the first combat with this party, I'm finding it difficult to balance the encounter.
It's an urban setting, the party is going to be cornered in an alley for story reasons I won't go into. They're well rested, a couple of spell slots down, it's likely the only combat of the day so they can go all out, I want it to be pretty challenging.
I understand this isn't a perfect science and it's all chaos and chance in the end, but does this seem like a good starting point? Any ideas of feedback would be appreciated.
Honestly, throw 'balance' out of the window and just run what you think is the most interesting and the most entertaining. I've been playing for over 25 years at this point and GMing games for over 15. Most of the more modern games just throw balance out of the window in favour of giving the players 'cool' stuff. 5e and 5.5e most definitely fall into that category.
That said - practical feedback on your encounter - it'll likely be over between 3 and 5 combat rounds if that. At most you're looking at 25 minutes. The party are in no real danger even of being knocked below half hit points, and half the enemies should go down within the first two rounds. If combat isn't the main focus of your group, it'll be an interesting change of pace.
If you want challenge I'd recommend: 2xVeteran, 2xMaster Thief, and 2x Thug. The combat will last somewhere between 6 and 8 rounds (30-40 minutes) and most of your player characters risk being knocked below half health - there's even a realistic chance that one of the player characters will get knocked to unconsciousness. Within four or five rounds though the party should have eliminated most of the enemies and be down to just the two master thieves.
I am all for focusing on the narrative and telling an interesting collective story, that's where we spend most of our time when we play. And I'm certainly not looking for perfect balance, just a good range that will feel like a challenge but not just kill everyone.
Thank you very much for the detailed practical feedback! I want to keep it to one Master Thief since he's an NPC with a story with his crew for backup. So perhaps: 3xVeteran, 1xMaster Thief, and 2x Thug. I realise this brings the challenge down a bit from your suggestion, but my players are also not the most combat focused and may opt for interesting tactics rather than optimal ones.
In which case a little trick. You can still have a second 'master thief', but call him a thief to your players, and halve his hitpoints. The attacks and actions are what provide the challenge.
Skinning and reskinning stat blocks is a useful tool to have in your GM toolkit. Just because you're using a stat block from say a Drow Inquisitor doesn't mean they have to be a Drow. You could make them a dragonborn and give them a breath weapon too. Or you could remove darkvision and have them as humans.
When dealing with monsters there are two settings you can modify in stat blocks. The first is HP - feel free to modify their HP to your hearts content. Having an enemy start off injured can be a great way to shake up the normal format of combat. Likewise, AC. You can always lower or even raise HP for monsters to make them slightly more or slightly less challenging.
In general my rule of thumb for a challenging tier 2 combat is total CR equal to half the total party levels (does not work well for a single opponent or large numbers of CR 1 and below). Your total CR is 10 so it's a bit low but not hugely low. However, master thieves are really not designed to be front line fighters, and thugs are terrible ranged combatants. I would suggest:
Group 1: master thief, veteran (master thieves are built around sneak attack, which needs a nearby ally).
Thank you for that insight! I'm slowly getting my head around the system.
We ran the encounter with 3xVeteran, 1xMaster Thief, and 2x Thug and it worked out well and the players had a good time trying out their new characters. Your suggestions would probably have been a more interesting challenge, scouts would for sure be better on the roof than thugs. However with all players being relatively inexperienced and with all new characters, the encounter took long enough as it was.
I did keep the Master Thief behind the veterans as much as possible, getting a sneak attack in every round. He ended up trying to escape, with all his friends dead, but was stopped by the bard's major image cutting off his escape route and a raging barbarian with a morning star to the skull.
Thank you for the advise, I will keep it in mind for future encounter building!
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I'm new in the DM seat, I've only run a one-shot before, now I'm running a mini adventure in three sessions.
We've got a party of 5 level 5 characters who are up against their first combat. (Bard, Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Ranger)
This is not a combat heavy adventure and as it's the first combat with this party, I'm finding it difficult to balance the encounter.
It's an urban setting, the party is going to be cornered in an alley for story reasons I won't go into.
They're well rested, a couple of spell slots down, it's likely the only combat of the day so they can go all out, I want it to be pretty challenging.
I've tried to get a good idea about creating a balanced combat encounter from various resources and this is what I've come up with:
A Master Thief in front, two Thugs and a Veteran coming up behind and two additional Thugs with crossbows on the rooftops around them.
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Veteran#content
https://********/bestiary/master-thief-vgm.html
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Thug#content
I understand this isn't a perfect science and it's all chaos and chance in the end, but does this seem like a good starting point?
Any ideas of feedback would be appreciated.
Thank you!
Honestly, throw 'balance' out of the window and just run what you think is the most interesting and the most entertaining. I've been playing for over 25 years at this point and GMing games for over 15. Most of the more modern games just throw balance out of the window in favour of giving the players 'cool' stuff. 5e and 5.5e most definitely fall into that category.
That said - practical feedback on your encounter - it'll likely be over between 3 and 5 combat rounds if that. At most you're looking at 25 minutes. The party are in no real danger even of being knocked below half hit points, and half the enemies should go down within the first two rounds. If combat isn't the main focus of your group, it'll be an interesting change of pace.
If you want challenge I'd recommend: 2xVeteran, 2xMaster Thief, and 2x Thug. The combat will last somewhere between 6 and 8 rounds (30-40 minutes) and most of your player characters risk being knocked below half health - there's even a realistic chance that one of the player characters will get knocked to unconsciousness. Within four or five rounds though the party should have eliminated most of the enemies and be down to just the two master thieves.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Thank you for the feedback!
I am all for focusing on the narrative and telling an interesting collective story, that's where we spend most of our time when we play. And I'm certainly not looking for perfect balance, just a good range that will feel like a challenge but not just kill everyone.
Thank you very much for the detailed practical feedback! I want to keep it to one Master Thief since he's an NPC with a story with his crew for backup.
So perhaps: 3xVeteran, 1xMaster Thief, and 2x Thug.
I realise this brings the challenge down a bit from your suggestion, but my players are also not the most combat focused and may opt for interesting tactics rather than optimal ones.
Thanks again!
In which case a little trick. You can still have a second 'master thief', but call him a thief to your players, and halve his hitpoints. The attacks and actions are what provide the challenge.
Skinning and reskinning stat blocks is a useful tool to have in your GM toolkit. Just because you're using a stat block from say a Drow Inquisitor doesn't mean they have to be a Drow. You could make them a dragonborn and give them a breath weapon too. Or you could remove darkvision and have them as humans.
When dealing with monsters there are two settings you can modify in stat blocks. The first is HP - feel free to modify their HP to your hearts content. Having an enemy start off injured can be a great way to shake up the normal format of combat. Likewise, AC. You can always lower or even raise HP for monsters to make them slightly more or slightly less challenging.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
That is an excellent point, thank you!
In general my rule of thumb for a challenging tier 2 combat is total CR equal to half the total party levels (does not work well for a single opponent or large numbers of CR 1 and below). Your total CR is 10 so it's a bit low but not hugely low. However, master thieves are really not designed to be front line fighters, and thugs are terrible ranged combatants. I would suggest:
Group 1: master thief, veteran (master thieves are built around sneak attack, which needs a nearby ally).
Group 2: veteran, 2 thugs
Rooftops: 2x scout
Thank you for that insight! I'm slowly getting my head around the system.
We ran the encounter with 3xVeteran, 1xMaster Thief, and 2x Thug and it worked out well and the players had a good time trying out their new characters.
Your suggestions would probably have been a more interesting challenge, scouts would for sure be better on the roof than thugs. However with all players being relatively inexperienced and with all new characters, the encounter took long enough as it was.
I did keep the Master Thief behind the veterans as much as possible, getting a sneak attack in every round. He ended up trying to escape, with all his friends dead, but was stopped by the bard's major image cutting off his escape route and a raging barbarian with a morning star to the skull.
Thank you for the advise, I will keep it in mind for future encounter building!