This is my first time posting here. I've been DMing a 5E campaign for my wife and kids off and on for the past year and I have a question. And if it matters, we started off together all new to the game.
I sometimes use this online encounter builder to create encounters of an appropriate challenge for my players. But how can I work it the math if I want a monster to switch sides at the start of the battle (for plot reasons) and start helping the heroes against the villain?
Let's say I have 4 4th level characters fighting an important villain, but right at the start of the fight, a ghost (CR 4) that was on the villain's side, switches sides to join the players against the villain?
I would need to create a villain that would be a medium-to-difficult fight against four level 4 players and a ghost. (It doesn't really have to be a ghost, but that was my initial idea). And I'm not sure how to do that.
I thought about reverse-engineering it. So I asked the encounter builder to pit one character against a ghost. If I do that, it takes one level 10 character to create a "medium" difficulty encounter against a ghost.
But does that mean a ghost would be equivalent to a level 10 player fighting alongside the players? If so, that seems like a really unbalanced ally for my party of level 4 players, even if it is just for one battle.
Would it make sense for me to plug other monsters in to the encounter builder until I find one that is equivalent to a level 4 player instead?
Hello! So I totally see why you were reverse engineering it the way that you were, but I'd also add in that the encounter builder takes into account the number of people in the party, so monster to PC isn't always going to look 1:1 if there's only one of each in the builder.
Truthfully it's not an easy answer to give, but I would say you could always make the encounter a "deadly" encounter (just barely), and then have the ghost switch sides to make it medium to hard in difficulty would be my recommendation! Especially if that ghost tips the encounter into the deadly zone. You could also make the encounter on the upper end of hard, or even have the ghost perform a reaction of sorts to defend a player that leaves them incapacitated for the rest of the encounter if you're genuinely worried about balancing with the monster on their side--something that lets the players know the ghost is with them and then encourages them to come to its defense after it defended the player(s).
Hello! So I totally see why you were reverse engineering it the way that you were, but I'd also add in that the encounter builder takes into account the number of people in the party, so monster to PC isn't always going to look 1:1 if there's only one of each in the builder.
Truthfully it's not an easy answer to give, but I would say you could always make the encounter a "deadly" encounter (just barely), and then have the ghost switch sides to make it medium to hard in difficulty would be my recommendation! Especially if that ghost tips the encounter into the deadly zone. You could also make the encounter on the upper end of hard, or even have the ghost perform a reaction of sorts to defend a player that leaves them incapacitated for the rest of the encounter if you're genuinely worried about balancing with the monster on their side--something that lets the players know the ghost is with them and then encourages them to come to its defense after it defended the player(s).
Thank you! That's very good advice. I was going into this idea blind and your suggestions give me a better foundation for building this encounter than what I was able to come up with on my own.
I don't know when we'll play next (scheduling around teenagers, even ones that live with you, isn't easy!) and it may be a while before we get to this battle, but after we do, I'll post an update on how it went.
Make sure to telegraph very clearly to your players that this ghost is on the fence and can be swayed to your cause with a few Persuasion Rolls or whatever. (many) Players have a tendency to want to only kill whatever has a CR rating. :)
Hi everyI thought about reverse-engineering it. So I asked the encounter builder to pit one character against a ghost. If I do that, it takes one level 10 character to create a "medium" difficulty encounter against a ghost.
I would make it a deadly encounter, as medium means the player is very likely to succeed, but with some risk. That brings the value down to a level 5 character, which makes a lot more sense.
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also be prepared for the monster to stay with the BBEG - as you have no doubt seen by now once the game starts the DM's plans frequently fly out the window. So have the party get experience for flipping the ghost or for killing it.
If you're not playing in a crunchy game where everyone's tracking all HP damage done to enemies, I'll give the potentially inflammatory answer of:
Fudge it.
Just put the stuff in and if it feels like you overshot, pull back. If you undershot, dial something up.
So if the monster goes from PC to BBEG sides 3 rounds in, and then nearly oneshots a character, give the party some way to do the same back and relevel the playing field. It might mean bending some rules here and there but if everyone enjoys the encounter, that's the real win, IMHBDAO
The simple answer is "count the xp value of friendly monsters as negative" -- i.e. the ghost, rather than adding 1,100 xp the encounter, subtracts 1,100 xp. However, you will generally get more reliable results (and also speed up game play) by just moving the NPC vs NPC fights off-screen and scripting the results (e.g. "The ghost possesses veteran #1 and then has a slap-fight with veteran #2, so I'll just remove all three from the fight"), at which point just evaluate the remaining monsters as an encounter.
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Hi everyone!
This is my first time posting here. I've been DMing a 5E campaign for my wife and kids off and on for the past year and I have a question. And if it matters, we started off together all new to the game.
I sometimes use this online encounter builder to create encounters of an appropriate challenge for my players. But how can I work it the math if I want a monster to switch sides at the start of the battle (for plot reasons) and start helping the heroes against the villain?
Let's say I have 4 4th level characters fighting an important villain, but right at the start of the fight, a ghost (CR 4) that was on the villain's side, switches sides to join the players against the villain?
I would need to create a villain that would be a medium-to-difficult fight against four level 4 players and a ghost. (It doesn't really have to be a ghost, but that was my initial idea). And I'm not sure how to do that.
I thought about reverse-engineering it. So I asked the encounter builder to pit one character against a ghost. If I do that, it takes one level 10 character to create a "medium" difficulty encounter against a ghost.
But does that mean a ghost would be equivalent to a level 10 player fighting alongside the players? If so, that seems like a really unbalanced ally for my party of level 4 players, even if it is just for one battle.
Would it make sense for me to plug other monsters in to the encounter builder until I find one that is equivalent to a level 4 player instead?
Or am I just going about this all the wrong way?
I appreciate any advice. Thanks!
-Frotzing
Hello! So I totally see why you were reverse engineering it the way that you were, but I'd also add in that the encounter builder takes into account the number of people in the party, so monster to PC isn't always going to look 1:1 if there's only one of each in the builder.
Truthfully it's not an easy answer to give, but I would say you could always make the encounter a "deadly" encounter (just barely), and then have the ghost switch sides to make it medium to hard in difficulty would be my recommendation! Especially if that ghost tips the encounter into the deadly zone. You could also make the encounter on the upper end of hard, or even have the ghost perform a reaction of sorts to defend a player that leaves them incapacitated for the rest of the encounter if you're genuinely worried about balancing with the monster on their side--something that lets the players know the ghost is with them and then encourages them to come to its defense after it defended the player(s).
they/him
Thank you! That's very good advice. I was going into this idea blind and your suggestions give me a better foundation for building this encounter than what I was able to come up with on my own.
I don't know when we'll play next (scheduling around teenagers, even ones that live with you, isn't easy!) and it may be a while before we get to this battle, but after we do, I'll post an update on how it went.
Thanks again!
Make sure to telegraph very clearly to your players that this ghost is on the fence and can be swayed to your cause with a few Persuasion Rolls or whatever. (many) Players have a tendency to want to only kill whatever has a CR rating. :)
I would make it a deadly encounter, as medium means the player is very likely to succeed, but with some risk. That brings the value down to a level 5 character, which makes a lot more sense.
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also be prepared for the monster to stay with the BBEG - as you have no doubt seen by now once the game starts the DM's plans frequently fly out the window. So have the party get experience for flipping the ghost or for killing it.
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If you're not playing in a crunchy game where everyone's tracking all HP damage done to enemies, I'll give the potentially inflammatory answer of:
Fudge it.
Just put the stuff in and if it feels like you overshot, pull back. If you undershot, dial something up.
So if the monster goes from PC to BBEG sides 3 rounds in, and then nearly oneshots a character, give the party some way to do the same back and relevel the playing field. It might mean bending some rules here and there but if everyone enjoys the encounter, that's the real win, IMHBDAO
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The simple answer is "count the xp value of friendly monsters as negative" -- i.e. the ghost, rather than adding 1,100 xp the encounter, subtracts 1,100 xp. However, you will generally get more reliable results (and also speed up game play) by just moving the NPC vs NPC fights off-screen and scripting the results (e.g. "The ghost possesses veteran #1 and then has a slap-fight with veteran #2, so I'll just remove all three from the fight"), at which point just evaluate the remaining monsters as an encounter.