If we compare the shepherd to land druid (assuming the player's druid is comparable to mine), half of their spells will be overlapping.
Only if you assume the two players don't do any coordinating at all. There are plenty of spells for them to have completely different spell lists:
Shepherd: Speak with Animals, Animal Friendship, Goodberry, Entangle, Healing Word, Thunderwave, Aid, Enlarge/Reduce, Summon Beast, Lesser Restoration, Conjure Animals, Speak with Plants, Summon Fey, Plant Growth. (14 spells when they can only prepare 9)
Land: Detect Magic, Faerie Fire, Long Strider/Jump, Healing Word, Spike Growth, Gust of Wind, Heat Metal, Augury, Pass without Trace, Moonbeam, Dispel Magic, Sleet Storm, Waterbreathing, Daylight (14 spells when they can only prepare 9)
Many of those spells are hot garbage. Assuming he cast enlarge/reduce on the rogue, he would be giving an average of 3.25 dpr (65% hit rate) at the cost of a second level spell slot and concentration. You can almost always afford to wait 8 hours to prepare water breathing. You could make an argument for daylight in a campaign with lots of underdark creatures and undead, but the party actually has a magic item they can use to cast it. Maybe I'm crazy, but sleet storm seems almost useless to me. Pass without trace is significantly better for stealth, and damage can break concentration in the rare scenarios where that's necessary. I feel the same way about aid: they don't really have the spell slots to spare for such a minor effect. Also, none of the 3rd level spells work considering the party is level 4. Finally, I think it is very likely that they would not do any kind of coordinating. They aren't exactly pros.
If your game is 100% hack-and-slash combat, then sure I agree, you should just ban Druid all together. In a hack-and-slash game, a Cleric is just objectively better at all things than a Druid, so just make your druid players play a cleric.
PS Coordinating doesn't require players to be be pros, all you have to do is say "Hey I'm thinking of preparing X,Y,Z, how about you?" But if your players don't talk to each other at all in this social game, I could see how that could be a problem for you.
If we compare the shepherd to land druid (assuming the player's druid is comparable to mine), half of their spells will be overlapping.
Only if you assume the two players don't do any coordinating at all. There are plenty of spells for them to have completely different spell lists:
Shepherd: Speak with Animals, Animal Friendship, Goodberry, Entangle, Healing Word, Thunderwave, Aid, Enlarge/Reduce, Summon Beast, Lesser Restoration, Conjure Animals, Speak with Plants, Summon Fey, Plant Growth. (14 spells when they can only prepare 9)
Land: Detect Magic, Faerie Fire, Long Strider/Jump, Healing Word, Spike Growth, Gust of Wind, Heat Metal, Augury, Pass without Trace, Moonbeam, Dispel Magic, Sleet Storm, Waterbreathing, Daylight (14 spells when they can only prepare 9)
Many of those spells are hot garbage. Assuming he cast enlarge/reduce on the rogue, he would be giving an average of 3.25 dpr (65% hit rate) at the cost of a second level spell slot and concentration. You can almost always afford to wait 8 hours to prepare water breathing. You could make an argument for daylight in a campaign with lots of underdark creatures and undead, but the party actually has a magic item they can use to cast it. Maybe I'm crazy, but sleet storm seems almost useless to me. Pass without trace is significantly better for stealth, and damage can break concentration in the rare scenarios where that's necessary. I feel the same way about aid: they don't really have the spell slots to spare for such a minor effect. Also, none of the 3rd level spells work considering the party is level 4. Finally, I think it is very likely that they would not do any kind of coordinating. They aren't exactly pros.
If your game is 100% hack-and-slash combat, then sure I agree, you should just ban Druid all together. In a hack-and-slash game, a Cleric is just objectively better at all things than a Druid, so just make your druid players play a cleric.
PS Coordinating doesn't require players to be be pros, all you have to do is say "Hey I'm thinking of preparing X,Y,Z, how about you?" But if your players don't talk to each other at all in this social game, I could see how that could be a problem for you.
Not true? And how else should I analyze aid, as a social interaction spell??
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you are being disingenuous and rude, consider this your only response.
Not true? And how else should I analyze aid, as a social interaction spell??
Aid you are just flat wrong about, being able to heal 3 party members up from 0hp for a 2nd level spell is borderline broken how powerful it is. And why is social interaction your only alternative to hack & slash? Druid is all about the Exploration pillar, that's where they shine. If you aren't doing exploration stuff, you can just ban Druid entirely. Because without exploration they are just a worse cleric with some leaves in their hair.
But no matter, you seem to have made up your mind so just go do what you want to do without asking for advice here. You should never seek approval for a decision you have already made. Just live with the consequences of your choice.
But for others who might be reading:
Pass without Trace is arguably the most powerful spell in the game, because it allows you to successfully sneak even with a heavy-armour user in the party. Giving you Adv on initiative and allowing you to skip some combats entirely, but also allowing amazing information gathering when the Druid Wild Shapes into a mouse with PwoT and sits in the Rogue's pocket while they follow / scout out whatever and whomever they wish.
Enlarge/Reduce enables your Barbarian to grapple an Adult Dragon with one hand, or to throw the whole party, the donkey, and the cart across a crevass with ease, or it lets you shrink down a McGuffin to steal it right out from under the BBEGs nose. Or cast it on a door and watch the locking mechanism become defunct because there's a 2 foot gap all the way around the door.
Goodberry is the most effective out-of-combat healing spell in the game.
Speak with Animals / Speak with Plants and Augury are all useful information gathering spells, and allow unexpected social interactions as a bonus!
Lesser Restoration is a life saver when facing paralysis or poison traps.
Sleetstorm is the most powerful anti-caster spell, makes them blind, prone and forces them to lose concentration. It can also double as a distraction / escape option particularly if being chased by a whole platoon of cavalry or other mounted / fast running enemies.
Heat Metal cripples any enemy wearing armour, and is a great back up if you need to get the McGuffin from someone before they manage to escape with it, or if facing any enemies that use weapons.
Faerie Fire is one of the most OP spells in the game - breaks invisibility and gives the entire party Adv on multiple enemies for a minute with only 1 save and a 1st level spell.
Jump is now the go-to solution to environmental challenges early on, Give a big beefy boi the ability to Jump across a crevasse / river / lava with a rope to help everyone else across, or up ledges, cliffs, onto rooves, over walls etc...
Dispel Magic... dispels magic.. need I say more? erase nasty spell effects, suppress magic traps, remove illusions, eliminate magical alarms, and unlock magically sealed doors / chests / vaults.
Animal Friendship - gain a mount, make a new ally to add to the party, sabotage the enemy's carriage, gain a guide.
Plant Growth - save a town from a famine, gain the loyalty of an entire village, or turn an assaulting army into sitting ducks for siege weapons / archers.
Gust of Wind - clear fog, poisonous gases, hurl enemies off boats or off cliffs or into traps, blast allies free from the grasp of grappling enemies.
If your game is 100% hack-and-slash combat, then sure I agree, you should just ban Druid all together. In a hack-and-slash game, a Cleric is just objectively better at all things than a Druid
Yup, a cleric's wild shape blows the druid's out of the water
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If your game is 100% hack-and-slash combat, then sure I agree, you should just ban Druid all together. In a hack-and-slash game, a Cleric is just objectively better at all things than a Druid
Yup, a cleric's wild shape blows the druid's out of the water
Wild shape is useless in a hack & slash game. Please read carefully, eh?
PS: I love druids, I've been playing one from level 3 to level 18 over the last 2 years, but they have their specialty niche : exploration, and if your game doesn't include that they are not a good class.
If your game is 100% hack-and-slash combat, then sure I agree, you should just ban Druid all together. In a hack-and-slash game, a Cleric is just objectively better at all things than a Druid
Yup, a cleric's wild shape blows the druid's out of the water
Wild shape is useless in a hack & slash game. Please read carefully, eh?
PS: I love druids, I've been playing one from level 3 to level 18 over the last 2 years, but they have their specialty niche : exploration, and if your game doesn't include that they are not a good class.
I've been playing a druid 1-7 over the past year, and I assure you, they can be very potent in combat.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you are being disingenuous and rude, consider this your only response.
If your game is 100% hack-and-slash combat, then sure I agree, you should just ban Druid all together. In a hack-and-slash game, a Cleric is just objectively better at all things than a Druid
Yup, a cleric's wild shape blows the druid's out of the water
Wild shape is useless in a hack & slash game.
LOLOLOLOLOL
Oh my sweet summer child
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Recently in the campaign I DM a player PC died. Another player in the campaign is helping them make a new character, and they texted to ask if the player could use the old circle of the shepherd subclass (by default, only core rules are allowed and the players need to ask if they want to use something else). I looked it up, then told them no. I have a few reasons:
There's already a druid in the party.
The subclass seems overpowered.
Additionally, the only reason they could give for using the subclass is that it looks fun, but they won't even be playing the character themselves! I think they were pretty annoyed with this, but I don't think I'm being very unreasonable. What do you think?
You are not being unreasonable at all. The DM is the final arbiter in all matters of the game. You can allow or disallow any subclass, any spell, any rule you like. If you think that the subclass is OP, that is all the reason you have to supply, to anyone. It is your table. You are the one doing the lion's share of the work. And my experience has demonstrated that when a player uses the word "fun", the DM can substitute the word "OP", about 90% of the time.
I've been playing a druid 1-7 over the past year, and I assure you, they can be very potent in combat.
I feel like we are talking past each other. So I will take one final attempt to clarify my argument:
There are three major pillars of D&D: Combat, Exploration, Social. While all classes are capable of contributing to each of these pillars, certain classes are particularly adepts at certain pillars. Bards are most adept at Social, Druids are most adept at Exploration, Barbarians and Fighters are most adept at Combat. Clerics, Paladins, and Warlocks combine Social & Combat. Monks, Rogues and Rangers combine Exploration and Combat. Wizards and Sorcerers pick what they excel at based on their spell/subclass choices. All classes have stuff they can do in combat since combat is the most rules-heavy portion of the game, however, not all classes are equally good at combat, and not all classes are good at the same kinds of things in combat.
Cleric and Druid (especially in 2024 rules) are extremely similar to each other. Their class design is essentially the same: 1st level pick between a casting focus (cantrip buff) or a more martial focus (armour buff), 2nd level gain a special resource that scales as you level and that you regain one of when you finish a short rest, 3rd level gain subclass, 5th level gain a new use for your special resource, 7th level gain another buff to either cantrips or weapon use, 14th/15th level improvement on the 7th level feature 20th level capstone.
Both are prepared casters that swap spells every long rest from their entire spell list, except for those they get automatically prepared from their subclass. Both have spell lists massively dominated by concentration spells, and are designed such that it is expected the character will throw up a concentration spell and then spam weapon attacks or cantrips (hence the 1st,7th,14th/15th level class features). Both have d8 hit dice and some survivability class features. In terms of spells, both have a full suite of the standard healing spells ([mass]healing word, [mass]cure wounds, lesser/greater restoration), some nice low-level party buff spells that remain potent even at higher levels (i.e. Faerie Fire/Bless), a handful of single-target blast spells (Guiding Bolt, Ice Knife), some concentration-based AoE damaging spell effects that start coming online at 5th level (i.e. Spirit Guardians / Conjure Animals), as well as the universal caster-utility spells (Dispel Magic, Detect Magic, Scrying, Plane Shift, and a get-me-home spell: Word of Recall / Transport via Plants).
The major difference between the classes is that Druid gets a ton of excellent exploration abilities: Wild Companion, Wild Shape, Speak to Animals/Plants, Find the Path, Pass without Trace, Wind Walk, Polymorph, Water Breathing, Water Walk. Whereas Cleric gets more combat oriented abilities : better armour, better weapons, more damage-oriented cantrips, Channel Divinities (almost all combat oriented), Banishment, Command, Death Ward, Guiding Bolt, Silence, Dispel E/G, Beacon of Hope.
Hence in a hack-and-slash campaign, where exploration isn't really relevant, Cleric is better than Druid. Cleric is better at surviving, better at dealing damage, better at keeping allies alive, and better at neutralizing/debuffing enemies. This is doubly true in 2024 since most of Druid's debuffs are one of : grapple enemies, push enemies, knock enemies prone and 2024 has made it so that martials are super good at all of those things as well - just as good if not better than a Druid, whereas Cleric can mind-control, silence, or banish enemies. Just as in a hack & slash campaign a Wizard/Sorcerer is better than a Bard, and a Fighter is better than a Rogue or Ranger.
I've been playing a druid 1-7 over the past year, and I assure you, they can be very potent in combat.
I feel like we are talking past each other. So I will take one final attempt to clarify my argument:
There are three major pillars of D&D: Combat, Exploration, Social. While all classes are capable of contributing to each of these pillars, certain classes are particularly adepts at certain pillars. Bards are most adept at Social, Druids are most adept at Exploration, Barbarians and Fighters are most adept at Combat. Clerics, Paladins, and Warlocks combine Social & Combat. Monks, Rogues and Rangers combine Exploration and Combat. Wizards and Sorcerers pick what they excel at based on their spell/subclass choices. All classes have stuff they can do in combat since combat is the most rules-heavy portion of the game, however, not all classes are equally good at combat, and not all classes are good at the same kinds of things in combat.
I'd say druids can pick between exploration and combat like wizards and sorcerers.
Cleric and Druid (especially in 2024 rules) are extremely similar to each other. Their class design is essentially the same: 1st level pick between a casting focus (cantrip buff) or a more martial focus (armour buff), 2nd level gain a special resource that scales as you level and that you regain one of when you finish a short rest, 3rd level gain subclass, 5th level gain a new use for your special resource, 7th level gain another buff to either cantrips or weapon use, 14th/15th level improvement on the 7th level feature 20th level capstone.
Both are prepared casters that swap spells every long rest from their entire spell list, except for those they get automatically prepared from their subclass. Both have spell lists massively dominated by concentration spells, and are designed such that it is expected the character will throw up a concentration spell and then spam weapon attacks or cantrips (hence the 1st,7th,14th/15th level class features). Both have d8 hit dice and some survivability class features. In terms of spells, both have a full suite of the standard healing spells ([mass]healing word, [mass]cure wounds, lesser/greater restoration), some nice low-level party buff spells that remain potent even at higher levels (i.e. Faerie Fire/Bless), a handful of single-target blast spells (Guiding Bolt, Ice Knife), some concentration-based AoE damaging spell effects that start coming online at 5th level (i.e. Spirit Guardians / Conjure Animals), as well as the universal caster-utility spells (Dispel Magic, Detect Magic, Scrying, Plane Shift, and a get-me-home spell: Word of Recall / Transport via Plants).
The major difference between the classes is that Druid gets a ton of excellent exploration abilities: Wild Companion, Wild Shape, Speak to Animals/Plants, Find the Path, Pass without Trace, Wind Walk, Polymorph, Water Breathing, Water Walk. Whereas Cleric gets more combat oriented abilities : better armour, better weapons, more damage-oriented cantrips, Channel Divinities (almost all combat oriented), Banishment, Command, Death Ward, Guiding Bolt, Silence, Dispel E/G, Beacon of Hope.
Clerics have precisely 1 damage oriented cantrip, where druids have 6. Clerics do have better armor, but druids really have better weapons due to [Tooltip Not Found]. IIRC, all of the wildshape options from subclasses are combat oriented. Command wastes one turn for a single enemy plus a bonus effect, where entangle can waste multiple turns for multiple enemies while restraining them. Banishment can take an enemy out of the fight for a minute, while polymorph can for an hour. etc. You also haven't mentioned spells like barkskin, call lightning, summon beast, and moonbeam.
Hence in a hack-and-slash campaign, where exploration isn't really relevant, Cleric is better than Druid. Cleric is better at surviving, better at dealing damage, better at keeping allies alive, and better at neutralizing/debuffing enemies. This is doubly true in 2024 since most of Druid's debuffs are one of : grapple enemies, push enemies, knock enemies prone and 2024 has made it so that martials are super good at all of those things as well - just as good if not better than a Druid, whereas Cleric can mind-control, silence, or banish enemies. Just as in a hack & slash campaign a Wizard/Sorcerer is better than a Bard, and a Fighter is better than a Rogue or Ranger.
I feel like you haven't proved your closing statement with your post. All you've done is list some exploration spells druids have and combat spells clerics have, as well as point out the similarities between druids and clerics.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you are being disingenuous and rude, consider this your only response.
I've been playing a druid 1-7 over the past year, and I assure you, they can be very potent in combat.
I feel like we are talking past each other. So I will take one final attempt to clarify my argument:
There are three major pillars of D&D: Combat, Exploration, Social. While all classes are capable of contributing to each of these pillars, certain classes are particularly adepts at certain pillars. Bards are most adept at Social, Druids are most adept at Exploration, Barbarians and Fighters are most adept at Combat. Clerics, Paladins, and Warlocks combine Social & Combat. Monks, Rogues and Rangers combine Exploration and Combat. Wizards and Sorcerers pick what they excel at based on their spell/subclass choices. All classes have stuff they can do in combat since combat is the most rules-heavy portion of the game, however, not all classes are equally good at combat, and not all classes are good at the same kinds of things in combat.
Cleric and Druid (especially in 2024 rules) are extremely similar to each other. Their class design is essentially the same: 1st level pick between a casting focus (cantrip buff) or a more martial focus (armour buff), 2nd level gain a special resource that scales as you level and that you regain one of when you finish a short rest, 3rd level gain subclass, 5th level gain a new use for your special resource, 7th level gain another buff to either cantrips or weapon use, 14th/15th level improvement on the 7th level feature 20th level capstone.
Both are prepared casters that swap spells every long rest from their entire spell list, except for those they get automatically prepared from their subclass. Both have spell lists massively dominated by concentration spells, and are designed such that it is expected the character will throw up a concentration spell and then spam weapon attacks or cantrips (hence the 1st,7th,14th/15th level class features). Both have d8 hit dice and some survivability class features. In terms of spells, both have a full suite of the standard healing spells ([mass]healing word, [mass]cure wounds, lesser/greater restoration), some nice low-level party buff spells that remain potent even at higher levels (i.e. Faerie Fire/Bless), a handful of single-target blast spells (Guiding Bolt, Ice Knife), some concentration-based AoE damaging spell effects that start coming online at 5th level (i.e. Spirit Guardians / Conjure Animals), as well as the universal caster-utility spells (Dispel Magic, Detect Magic, Scrying, Plane Shift, and a get-me-home spell: Word of Recall / Transport via Plants).
The major difference between the classes is that Druid gets a ton of excellent exploration abilities: Wild Companion, Wild Shape, Speak to Animals/Plants, Find the Path, Pass without Trace, Wind Walk, Polymorph, Water Breathing, Water Walk. Whereas Cleric gets more combat oriented abilities : better armour, better weapons, more damage-oriented cantrips, Channel Divinities (almost all combat oriented), Banishment, Command, Death Ward, Guiding Bolt, Silence, Dispel E/G, Beacon of Hope.
Hence in a hack-and-slash campaign, where exploration isn't really relevant, Cleric is better than Druid. Cleric is better at surviving, better at dealing damage, better at keeping allies alive, and better at neutralizing/debuffing enemies. This is doubly true in 2024 since most of Druid's debuffs are one of : grapple enemies, push enemies, knock enemies prone and 2024 has made it so that martials are super good at all of those things as well - just as good if not better than a Druid, whereas Cleric can mind-control, silence, or banish enemies. Just as in a hack & slash campaign a Wizard/Sorcerer is better than a Bard, and a Fighter is better than a Rogue or Ranger.
Ummm...you would be wrong.
I DM'ed a session last night. The group of four 4th level PC's came upon a group of 8 Gnolls (various types, mostly from Volo's). The Moon Druid turned into a Lion, doing melee damage, while at the same time absorbing all kinds of damage that would have otherwise been focused on the melee fighter. Later in the combat, the Druid was reduced due to HP loss back to its humanoid form (which also turned an attack that would have hit into a miss, due to the humanoid's higher AC). On the Druid's turn, it used its bonus action to turn into a Dire Wolf, and absorbed a ton more damage. Oh, and yes, both the Lion and Dire Wolf have Pack Tactics, so attacked with Advantage when fighting side by side with the Fighter.
So no, Druids are ridiculously powerful in combat. The group could have lost the fight, with a most certainly "dead dead" Fighter, except for the Druid using its immensely OP Wildshape.
Moon druid wild shape (in 2014) is amazing in tier 1, and in tier 2+ promptly becomes "yeah, you're hard to kill but easy to ignore because your damage is not even close to competitive".
So no, Druids are ridiculously powerful in combat.
Moon druid at level 4 is literally the odd-one-out subclass completely oriented around melee, at the peak of their power - a point where it is well known that Moon Druid is OP, and is considered "broken" in 2014 rules. You cannot generalize anything about "Druid" as a whole from that.
Because 3/4 of those are trash, and Moonbeam is just a worse Spirit Guardians.
Call Lightning requires an Action every turn and your Concentration to hit maybe 2 creatures (if you are lucky) with 3d10 lightning damage. Much of the time you can only hit one enemy or are hitting one of your allies at the same time, and the enemies can just walk out of range of it. In 2014 rules Call Lightning can only be cast outside because if the cloud doesn't fit you aren't allowed to cast it at all. Compare to Spirit Guardians: can hit enemies multiple times per round, targets a larger area and never hits allies, and moves with you so it costs 0 actions after casting it. The only thing Call Lightning has going for it is range, Spirit Guardian is vastly superior in every other way.
Barkskin maybe gives one of your allies a +1 AC (by 4th level almost all characters have 16 AC or higher) at the cost of your concentration and a 2nd level slot and an Action to cast, and you have to be in touching range to cast it. Vs Cleric has Shield of Faith : +2 AC on top of any AC your ally has, is a BA to cast, cost a 1st level slot, and can be cast at range. Cleric wins on every metric.
Summon Beast is basically a Spiritual Weapon that can die if the enemies use an AoE on you. In 2024, with Spiritual Weapon also requiring concentration it's not longer a clean win for Cleric, but Spiritual Weapon isn't great and neither is Summon Beast. It's ok, mostly because nearly all Druid/Cleric 2nd level spells are kind of bad, but 2024 Prayer of Healing is probably better than either of them, or simply upcasting Command or Guiding Bolt.
Moonbeam is better than Call Lightning in every way in 2024 rules, because now you can move it 60 ft hitting every enemy it passes over as an Action, instead of Call Lightning one pin prick of targeted area as an Action. So Moonbeam at least you can expect to reliably hit 2,3, or more enemies in a combat now, though you do have to be careful to dodge around your allies when moving your space-laser around since Moonbeam is indiscriminate - this also makes it harder for friendlies to push enemies into it for a second blast of damage in the same round. However it is still costing you a full Action to move it, which is much more expensive than Spirit Guardians which just moves with you where ever you go automatically. 2024 Conjure Animals arguably fulfills the same role just better than Moonbeam because it doesn't cost an action to move it and it can discriminate between friends and foes.
PS: Re Cantrips - Cleric has Toll the Dead (arguably the best cantrip in the came), Sacred Flame, and Word of Radiance, Druid has Thorn Whip (decent but damage kinda sucks), Starry Wisp (not as good a Toll the Dead), Produce Flame (utter trash), and Poison Spray (matches Toll the Dead except for the fact that tones more enemies are immune to poison than Necrotic).
Because 3/4 of those are trash, and Moonbeam is just a worse Spirit Guardians.
My point is that you mostly ignored the druid's combat spells. (some of which are unique to it) There's also summon fey, blight, grasping vine, and more.
Call Lightning requires an Action every turn and your Concentration to hit maybe 2 creatures (if you are lucky) with 3d10 lightning damage. Much of the time you can only hit one enemy or are hitting one of your allies at the same time, and the enemies can just walk out of range of it. In 2014 rules Call Lightning can only be cast outside because if the cloud doesn't fit you aren't allowed to cast it at all. Compare to Spirit Guardians: can hit enemies multiple times per round, targets a larger area and never hits allies, and moves with you so it costs 0 actions after casting it. The only thing Call Lightning has going for it is range, Spirit Guardian is vastly superior in every other way.
Don't discount range. You will almost never be hit if you use call lightning properly. For spirit guardians, you are very likely to be attacked. (also, call lightning does slightly more damage)
Barkskin maybe gives one of your allies a +1 AC (by 4th level almost all characters have 16 AC or higher) at the cost of your concentration and a 2nd level slot and an Action to cast, and you have to be in touching range to cast it. Vs Cleric has Shield of Faith : +2 AC on top of any AC your ally has, is a BA to cast, cost a 1st level slot, and can be cast at range. Cleric wins on every metric.
They have massively buffed barkskin, so that it is now a bonus action for 17 AC without concentration.
Summon Beast is basically a Spiritual Weapon that can die if the enemies use an AoE on you. In 2024, with Spiritual Weapon also requiring concentration it's not longer a clean win for Cleric, but Spiritual Weapon isn't great and neither is Summon Beast. It's ok, mostly because nearly all Druid/Cleric 2nd level spells are kind of bad, but 2024 Prayer of Healing is probably better than either of them, or simply upcasting Command or Guiding Bolt.
Moonbeam is better than Call Lightning in every way in 2024 rules, because now you can move it 60 ft hitting every enemy it passes over as an Action, instead of Call Lightning one pin prick of targeted area as an Action. So Moonbeam at least you can expect to reliably hit 2,3, or more enemies in a combat now, though you do have to be careful to dodge around your allies when moving your space-laser around since Moonbeam is indiscriminate - this also makes it harder for friendlies to push enemies into it for a second blast of damage in the same round. However it is still costing you a full Action to move it, which is much more expensive than Spirit Guardians which just moves with you where ever you go automatically. 2024 Conjure Animals arguably fulfills the same role just better than Moonbeam because it doesn't cost an action to move it and it can discriminate between friends and foes.
I've always played that "move" refers to making it appear in the new space rather than actually go through all the spaces in between. I could be wrong though.
PS: Re Cantrips - Cleric has Toll the Dead (arguably the best cantrip in the came), Sacred Flame, and Word of Radiance, Druid has Thorn Whip (decent but damage kinda sucks), Starry Wisp (not as good a Toll the Dead), Produce Flame (utter trash), and Poison Spray (matches Toll the Dead except for the fact that tones more enemies are immune to poison than Necrotic).
That's weird. Only sacred flame showed up in the free rules.
Druid also has shillelagh (good at low levels), and thunderclap, which can do high damage in very specific scenarios.
Why is produce flame utter trash? It consumes your bonus action, but that is not the end of the world.
Toll the dead has the minor drawback of doing less damage against undamaged enemies, which I feel balances out poison damage being more commonly resisted.
I think yes, you are being unreasonable, partially.
Reason 1: There is already a druid in the party As others have mentioned, that shouldn't matter at all. If your player enjoys being a druid and wants to play a druid, and another wants to as well--good on them. If your other player doesn't like it, honestly, too bad--your other players can't tell another player what class to play. You can inform them why you think it's not a great idea, but absolutely let them choose the class they want. Let them be the characters they want to be; nobody owns a class. I think it might be fun actually--they could work together in very sneaky ways.
Reason 2: the subclass is overpowered You've said you're playing 2024, the classes are well balanced. I would absolutely NOT allow them to cherry pick 2014 and 2024 classes, like "I'm going to use the 2024 cure wounds, but the 2014 mirror image". Nope, balance has GREATLY improved in 2024, stick to it.
On Being Overpowered Generally speaking, I don't buy this as a valid excuse for DMs. There are countless ways to mitigate powerful characters. And basing this decision simply on "I think it might be" appears to me as a VERY concerning DM behavior in terms of adjudication practice. Combine this with the logic that "the other druid might not like it", makes me question your general sense of fairness for adjudication in general. I would not trust a DM who uses this logic, because this logic will pervade the entire campaign (not meant to be offensive, but just being honest)
Second, a characters power is ONLY as good as the player uses that character. Is this player a strategic master, min-maxer who will exploit every millimeter of capacity? If not, don't worry about it. You can't determine to what extent that X player will be playing a character efficiently.
Combating powerful players is not that difficult---DM's can often fall into a rut of having the same kind of monsters/combat repetitively. A good balance quantity, then of melee, ranged, and casters along with environmental variables and traps will bring any player or group to their knees.
I think yes, you are being unreasonable, partially.
Reason 1: There is already a druid in the party As others have mentioned, that shouldn't matter at all. If your player enjoys being a druid and wants to play a druid, and another wants to as well--good on them. If your other player doesn't like it, honestly, too bad--your other players can't tell another player what class to play. You can inform them why you think it's not a great idea, but absolutely let them choose the class they want. Let them be the characters they want to be; nobody owns a class. I think it might be fun actually--they could work together in very sneaky ways.
Dungeons and Dragons is a cooperative game. If something isn't fun for a player, then that should be avoided.
Reason 2: the subclass is overpowered You've said you're playing 2024, the classes are well balanced. I would absolutely NOT allow them to cherry pick 2014 and 2024 classes, like "I'm going to use the 2024 cure wounds, but the 2014 mirror image". Nope, balance has GREATLY improved in 2024, stick to it.
I obviously don't let them cherry pick updated options. You would need to be a pretty terrible/naive DM to do that. However, some things have not been updated and I'm fine if players use them as long as I determine that they're balanced.
On Being Overpowered
Generally speaking, I don't buy this as a valid excuse for DMs. There are countless ways to mitigate powerful characters. And basing this decision simply on "I think it might be" appears to me as a VERY concerning DM behavior in terms of adjudication practice. Combine this with the logic that "the other druid might not like it", makes me question your general sense of fairness for adjudication in general. I would not trust a DM who uses this logic, because this logic will pervade the entire campaign (not meant to be offensive, but just being honest)
So what, am I supposed to perform playtests on all material before allowing it in my game? Also, the other druid not liking it is a guaranteed. They have said as much.
Second, a characters power is ONLY as good as the player uses that character. Is this player a strategic master, min-maxer who will exploit every millimeter of capacity? If not, don't worry about it. You can't determine to what extent that X player will be playing a character efficiently.
You don't need to min-max or power-game to use a shepherd druid's abilities. It's just plop down an op totem and use a summon spell.
Combating powerful players is not that difficult---DM's can often fall into a rut of having the same kind of monsters/combat repetitively. A good balance quantity, then of melee, ranged, and casters along with environmental variables and traps will bring any player or group to their knees.
Combating one powerful player without the others falling behind is that difficult.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you are being disingenuous and rude, consider this your only response.
He's exactly right. In 2014 at low levels, they're as strong as the entire party. Then they rapidly decline in power and never regain it while others outshine them. Moon druid wild shape is a low level gimmick that runs its course very quickly. Soon as the Druid sees the Wizard turning his buddy into a T-Rex, perspective changes.
I DM for a moon druid currently. I let her play it knowing it was absurdly powerful--and yeah, its still powerful, but I just compensate as a DM. Around level 6--8 is when the moon druid transitions to weaker than other similar leveled classes.
I DM for a moon druid currently. I let her play it knowing it was absurdly powerful--and yeah, its still powerful, but I just compensate as a DM. Around level 6--8 is when the moon druid transitions to weaker than other similar leveled classes.
I wouldn't call a moon druid weak at level 6-8; you're still a full spellcaster with a perfectly good spell list. It's just that combat wild shape scales horribly.
2024 tried to fix this problem by making it so you could still cast spells in wild shape, which does make wild shape more usable in combat but I would argue misses the point -- people don't play a moon druid because they want to turn into a bear and then cast spells like any other druid, they play a moon druid because they want to turn into a bear and go RAWR. However, adding a functional full melee combatant to a full caster is a bit of a balance issue; what they probably should have done is made combat wild shape depend on spending spell slots, but if you're spending high level spell slots, you get high level combat capabilities.
If your game is 100% hack-and-slash combat, then sure I agree, you should just ban Druid all together. In a hack-and-slash game, a Cleric is just objectively better at all things than a Druid, so just make your druid players play a cleric.
PS Coordinating doesn't require players to be be pros, all you have to do is say "Hey I'm thinking of preparing X,Y,Z, how about you?" But if your players don't talk to each other at all in this social game, I could see how that could be a problem for you.
Not true? And how else should I analyze aid, as a social interaction spell??
If you are being disingenuous and rude, consider this your only response.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
Aid you are just flat wrong about, being able to heal 3 party members up from 0hp for a 2nd level spell is borderline broken how powerful it is. And why is social interaction your only alternative to hack & slash? Druid is all about the Exploration pillar, that's where they shine. If you aren't doing exploration stuff, you can just ban Druid entirely. Because without exploration they are just a worse cleric with some leaves in their hair.
But no matter, you seem to have made up your mind so just go do what you want to do without asking for advice here. You should never seek approval for a decision you have already made. Just live with the consequences of your choice.
But for others who might be reading:
Pass without Trace is arguably the most powerful spell in the game, because it allows you to successfully sneak even with a heavy-armour user in the party. Giving you Adv on initiative and allowing you to skip some combats entirely, but also allowing amazing information gathering when the Druid Wild Shapes into a mouse with PwoT and sits in the Rogue's pocket while they follow / scout out whatever and whomever they wish.
Enlarge/Reduce enables your Barbarian to grapple an Adult Dragon with one hand, or to throw the whole party, the donkey, and the cart across a crevass with ease, or it lets you shrink down a McGuffin to steal it right out from under the BBEGs nose. Or cast it on a door and watch the locking mechanism become defunct because there's a 2 foot gap all the way around the door.
Goodberry is the most effective out-of-combat healing spell in the game.
Speak with Animals / Speak with Plants and Augury are all useful information gathering spells, and allow unexpected social interactions as a bonus!
Lesser Restoration is a life saver when facing paralysis or poison traps.
Sleetstorm is the most powerful anti-caster spell, makes them blind, prone and forces them to lose concentration. It can also double as a distraction / escape option particularly if being chased by a whole platoon of cavalry or other mounted / fast running enemies.
Heat Metal cripples any enemy wearing armour, and is a great back up if you need to get the McGuffin from someone before they manage to escape with it, or if facing any enemies that use weapons.
Faerie Fire is one of the most OP spells in the game - breaks invisibility and gives the entire party Adv on multiple enemies for a minute with only 1 save and a 1st level spell.
Jump is now the go-to solution to environmental challenges early on, Give a big beefy boi the ability to Jump across a crevasse / river / lava with a rope to help everyone else across, or up ledges, cliffs, onto rooves, over walls etc...
Dispel Magic... dispels magic.. need I say more? erase nasty spell effects, suppress magic traps, remove illusions, eliminate magical alarms, and unlock magically sealed doors / chests / vaults.
Animal Friendship - gain a mount, make a new ally to add to the party, sabotage the enemy's carriage, gain a guide.
Plant Growth - save a town from a famine, gain the loyalty of an entire village, or turn an assaulting army into sitting ducks for siege weapons / archers.
Gust of Wind - clear fog, poisonous gases, hurl enemies off boats or off cliffs or into traps, blast allies free from the grasp of grappling enemies.
Yup, a cleric's wild shape blows the druid's out of the water
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Wild shape is useless in a hack & slash game. Please read carefully, eh?
PS: I love druids, I've been playing one from level 3 to level 18 over the last 2 years, but they have their specialty niche : exploration, and if your game doesn't include that they are not a good class.
I've been playing a druid 1-7 over the past year, and I assure you, they can be very potent in combat.
If you are being disingenuous and rude, consider this your only response.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
LOLOLOLOLOL
Oh my sweet summer child
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You are not being unreasonable at all. The DM is the final arbiter in all matters of the game. You can allow or disallow any subclass, any spell, any rule you like. If you think that the subclass is OP, that is all the reason you have to supply, to anyone. It is your table. You are the one doing the lion's share of the work. And my experience has demonstrated that when a player uses the word "fun", the DM can substitute the word "OP", about 90% of the time.
Stick to your guns.
I feel like we are talking past each other. So I will take one final attempt to clarify my argument:
There are three major pillars of D&D: Combat, Exploration, Social. While all classes are capable of contributing to each of these pillars, certain classes are particularly adepts at certain pillars. Bards are most adept at Social, Druids are most adept at Exploration, Barbarians and Fighters are most adept at Combat. Clerics, Paladins, and Warlocks combine Social & Combat. Monks, Rogues and Rangers combine Exploration and Combat. Wizards and Sorcerers pick what they excel at based on their spell/subclass choices. All classes have stuff they can do in combat since combat is the most rules-heavy portion of the game, however, not all classes are equally good at combat, and not all classes are good at the same kinds of things in combat.
Cleric and Druid (especially in 2024 rules) are extremely similar to each other. Their class design is essentially the same:
1st level pick between a casting focus (cantrip buff) or a more martial focus (armour buff),
2nd level gain a special resource that scales as you level and that you regain one of when you finish a short rest,
3rd level gain subclass,
5th level gain a new use for your special resource,
7th level gain another buff to either cantrips or weapon use,
14th/15th level improvement on the 7th level feature
20th level capstone.
Both are prepared casters that swap spells every long rest from their entire spell list, except for those they get automatically prepared from their subclass. Both have spell lists massively dominated by concentration spells, and are designed such that it is expected the character will throw up a concentration spell and then spam weapon attacks or cantrips (hence the 1st,7th,14th/15th level class features). Both have d8 hit dice and some survivability class features. In terms of spells, both have a full suite of the standard healing spells ([mass]healing word, [mass]cure wounds, lesser/greater restoration), some nice low-level party buff spells that remain potent even at higher levels (i.e. Faerie Fire/Bless), a handful of single-target blast spells (Guiding Bolt, Ice Knife), some concentration-based AoE damaging spell effects that start coming online at 5th level (i.e. Spirit Guardians / Conjure Animals), as well as the universal caster-utility spells (Dispel Magic, Detect Magic, Scrying, Plane Shift, and a get-me-home spell: Word of Recall / Transport via Plants).
The major difference between the classes is that Druid gets a ton of excellent exploration abilities: Wild Companion, Wild Shape, Speak to Animals/Plants, Find the Path, Pass without Trace, Wind Walk, Polymorph, Water Breathing, Water Walk.
Whereas Cleric gets more combat oriented abilities : better armour, better weapons, more damage-oriented cantrips, Channel Divinities (almost all combat oriented), Banishment, Command, Death Ward, Guiding Bolt, Silence, Dispel E/G, Beacon of Hope.
Hence in a hack-and-slash campaign, where exploration isn't really relevant, Cleric is better than Druid. Cleric is better at surviving, better at dealing damage, better at keeping allies alive, and better at neutralizing/debuffing enemies. This is doubly true in 2024 since most of Druid's debuffs are one of : grapple enemies, push enemies, knock enemies prone and 2024 has made it so that martials are super good at all of those things as well - just as good if not better than a Druid, whereas Cleric can mind-control, silence, or banish enemies. Just as in a hack & slash campaign a Wizard/Sorcerer is better than a Bard, and a Fighter is better than a Rogue or Ranger.
I'd say druids can pick between exploration and combat like wizards and sorcerers.
Clerics have precisely 1 damage oriented cantrip, where druids have 6. Clerics do have better armor, but druids really have better weapons due to [Tooltip Not Found]. IIRC, all of the wildshape options from subclasses are combat oriented. Command wastes one turn for a single enemy plus a bonus effect, where entangle can waste multiple turns for multiple enemies while restraining them. Banishment can take an enemy out of the fight for a minute, while polymorph can for an hour. etc. You also haven't mentioned spells like barkskin, call lightning, summon beast, and moonbeam.
I feel like you haven't proved your closing statement with your post. All you've done is list some exploration spells druids have and combat spells clerics have, as well as point out the similarities between druids and clerics.
If you are being disingenuous and rude, consider this your only response.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
Ummm...you would be wrong.
I DM'ed a session last night. The group of four 4th level PC's came upon a group of 8 Gnolls (various types, mostly from Volo's). The Moon Druid turned into a Lion, doing melee damage, while at the same time absorbing all kinds of damage that would have otherwise been focused on the melee fighter. Later in the combat, the Druid was reduced due to HP loss back to its humanoid form (which also turned an attack that would have hit into a miss, due to the humanoid's higher AC). On the Druid's turn, it used its bonus action to turn into a Dire Wolf, and absorbed a ton more damage. Oh, and yes, both the Lion and Dire Wolf have Pack Tactics, so attacked with Advantage when fighting side by side with the Fighter.
So no, Druids are ridiculously powerful in combat. The group could have lost the fight, with a most certainly "dead dead" Fighter, except for the Druid using its immensely OP Wildshape.
Moon druid wild shape (in 2014) is amazing in tier 1, and in tier 2+ promptly becomes "yeah, you're hard to kill but easy to ignore because your damage is not even close to competitive".
Moon druid at level 4 is literally the odd-one-out subclass completely oriented around melee, at the peak of their power - a point where it is well known that Moon Druid is OP, and is considered "broken" in 2014 rules. You cannot generalize anything about "Druid" as a whole from that.
Because 3/4 of those are trash, and Moonbeam is just a worse Spirit Guardians.
Call Lightning requires an Action every turn and your Concentration to hit maybe 2 creatures (if you are lucky) with 3d10 lightning damage. Much of the time you can only hit one enemy or are hitting one of your allies at the same time, and the enemies can just walk out of range of it. In 2014 rules Call Lightning can only be cast outside because if the cloud doesn't fit you aren't allowed to cast it at all. Compare to Spirit Guardians: can hit enemies multiple times per round, targets a larger area and never hits allies, and moves with you so it costs 0 actions after casting it. The only thing Call Lightning has going for it is range, Spirit Guardian is vastly superior in every other way.
Barkskin maybe gives one of your allies a +1 AC (by 4th level almost all characters have 16 AC or higher) at the cost of your concentration and a 2nd level slot and an Action to cast, and you have to be in touching range to cast it. Vs Cleric has Shield of Faith : +2 AC on top of any AC your ally has, is a BA to cast, cost a 1st level slot, and can be cast at range. Cleric wins on every metric.
Summon Beast is basically a Spiritual Weapon that can die if the enemies use an AoE on you. In 2024, with Spiritual Weapon also requiring concentration it's not longer a clean win for Cleric, but Spiritual Weapon isn't great and neither is Summon Beast. It's ok, mostly because nearly all Druid/Cleric 2nd level spells are kind of bad, but 2024 Prayer of Healing is probably better than either of them, or simply upcasting Command or Guiding Bolt.
Moonbeam is better than Call Lightning in every way in 2024 rules, because now you can move it 60 ft hitting every enemy it passes over as an Action, instead of Call Lightning one pin prick of targeted area as an Action. So Moonbeam at least you can expect to reliably hit 2,3, or more enemies in a combat now, though you do have to be careful to dodge around your allies when moving your space-laser around since Moonbeam is indiscriminate - this also makes it harder for friendlies to push enemies into it for a second blast of damage in the same round. However it is still costing you a full Action to move it, which is much more expensive than Spirit Guardians which just moves with you where ever you go automatically. 2024 Conjure Animals arguably fulfills the same role just better than Moonbeam because it doesn't cost an action to move it and it can discriminate between friends and foes.
PS: Re Cantrips - Cleric has Toll the Dead (arguably the best cantrip in the came), Sacred Flame, and Word of Radiance, Druid has Thorn Whip (decent but damage kinda sucks), Starry Wisp (not as good a Toll the Dead), Produce Flame (utter trash), and Poison Spray (matches Toll the Dead except for the fact that tones more enemies are immune to poison than Necrotic).
My point is that you mostly ignored the druid's combat spells. (some of which are unique to it) There's also summon fey, blight, grasping vine, and more.
Don't discount range. You will almost never be hit if you use call lightning properly. For spirit guardians, you are very likely to be attacked. (also, call lightning does slightly more damage)
They have massively buffed barkskin, so that it is now a bonus action for 17 AC without concentration.
I've always played that "move" refers to making it appear in the new space rather than actually go through all the spaces in between. I could be wrong though.
That's weird. Only sacred flame showed up in the free rules.
Druid also has shillelagh (good at low levels), and thunderclap, which can do high damage in very specific scenarios.
Why is produce flame utter trash? It consumes your bonus action, but that is not the end of the world.
Toll the dead has the minor drawback of doing less damage against undamaged enemies, which I feel balances out poison damage being more commonly resisted.
(fixed tooltips)
If you are being disingenuous and rude, consider this your only response.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
Honestly? I think your judgement is 100% fair, having multiple of the same class is sucky unless everyone is okay with it.
"Tell me your funny words, magic man." - The Barbarian
I think yes, you are being unreasonable, partially.
Reason 1: There is already a druid in the party
As others have mentioned, that shouldn't matter at all. If your player enjoys being a druid and wants to play a druid, and another wants to as well--good on them. If your other player doesn't like it, honestly, too bad--your other players can't tell another player what class to play. You can inform them why you think it's not a great idea, but absolutely let them choose the class they want. Let them be the characters they want to be; nobody owns a class. I think it might be fun actually--they could work together in very sneaky ways.
Reason 2: the subclass is overpowered
You've said you're playing 2024, the classes are well balanced. I would absolutely NOT allow them to cherry pick 2014 and 2024 classes, like "I'm going to use the 2024 cure wounds, but the 2014 mirror image". Nope, balance has GREATLY improved in 2024, stick to it.
On Being Overpowered
Generally speaking, I don't buy this as a valid excuse for DMs. There are countless ways to mitigate powerful characters. And basing this decision simply on "I think it might be" appears to me as a VERY concerning DM behavior in terms of adjudication practice. Combine this with the logic that "the other druid might not like it", makes me question your general sense of fairness for adjudication in general. I would not trust a DM who uses this logic, because this logic will pervade the entire campaign (not meant to be offensive, but just being honest)
Second, a characters power is ONLY as good as the player uses that character. Is this player a strategic master, min-maxer who will exploit every millimeter of capacity? If not, don't worry about it. You can't determine to what extent that X player will be playing a character efficiently.
Combating powerful players is not that difficult---DM's can often fall into a rut of having the same kind of monsters/combat repetitively. A good balance quantity, then of melee, ranged, and casters along with environmental variables and traps will bring any player or group to their knees.
Dungeons and Dragons is a cooperative game. If something isn't fun for a player, then that should be avoided.
I obviously don't let them cherry pick updated options. You would need to be a pretty terrible/naive DM to do that. However, some things have not been updated and I'm fine if players use them as long as I determine that they're balanced.
So what, am I supposed to perform playtests on all material before allowing it in my game? Also, the other druid not liking it is a guaranteed. They have said as much.
You don't need to min-max or power-game to use a shepherd druid's abilities. It's just plop down an op totem and use a summon spell.
Combating one powerful player without the others falling behind is that difficult.
If you are being disingenuous and rude, consider this your only response.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
Re: Agilemind comment on the moon druid:
He's exactly right. In 2014 at low levels, they're as strong as the entire party. Then they rapidly decline in power and never regain it while others outshine them. Moon druid wild shape is a low level gimmick that runs its course very quickly. Soon as the Druid sees the Wizard turning his buddy into a T-Rex, perspective changes.
I DM for a moon druid currently. I let her play it knowing it was absurdly powerful--and yeah, its still powerful, but I just compensate as a DM. Around level 6--8 is when the moon druid transitions to weaker than other similar leveled classes.
I wouldn't call a moon druid weak at level 6-8; you're still a full spellcaster with a perfectly good spell list. It's just that combat wild shape scales horribly.
2024 tried to fix this problem by making it so you could still cast spells in wild shape, which does make wild shape more usable in combat but I would argue misses the point -- people don't play a moon druid because they want to turn into a bear and then cast spells like any other druid, they play a moon druid because they want to turn into a bear and go RAWR. However, adding a functional full melee combatant to a full caster is a bit of a balance issue; what they probably should have done is made combat wild shape depend on spending spell slots, but if you're spending high level spell slots, you get high level combat capabilities.