I think there are still math issues with most of the slow-down healing approaches.
The issue with D&D is that Hit Points are irrelevant to the readiness of an adventuring party. As long as they have any health, they are at full strength so while you might think that not letting players "fully recover" hit points is some sort of detriment, it's mostly psychological (players like being at full health) it has no actual impact on their ability to take on encounters or the mathmatics.
Furthermore, with the exception of very early levels, the amount of spells most classes get doesn't really deter alpha strikes and the full power potential of an adventuring party unless you do back-to-back encounters and block them from resting entirely, which is generally detrimental and boring to execute.
The only effective attribute in the game with a lasting impact that exists that will actually affect characters are Exhaustion Levels.
A simple solution is to give exhaustion levels as part of daily activity.
1. 8 Hours of activity = 1 exhaustion level 2. Each battle causes 1 exhaustion level 3. Each time you get knocked unconscious, you gain 2 exhaustion levels
As the only way to get rid of an exhaustion level is to do a long rest and you can only get rid of 1 at a time, players will take penalties. It is also thematically appropriate, as it makes perfect sense to become exhausted from doing stuff and having bad stuff happen to you.
while I wouldn't mind giving gritty realism a try sometime, this doesn't sound remotely fun.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
while I wouldn't mind giving gritty realism a try sometime, this doesn't sound remotely fun.
My experience as a player, was actually that Gritty Realism opens out a lot more options. It kind of enforces a pace that almost requires social encounters, downtime, and even training. The DMG does a truly awful job of explaining possible use cases. It's not about making the game more difficult, but rather about changing the pacing.
Here's how I would use it and why I'd use it.
I've got players who want to do crafting, training, or researching (for which there are rules in the 5e players' handbook). With 250 days to gain a new proficiency or skill that's a lot of in game time. In game it's possible to get from level 1 to 20 on encounters alone in a tenth of that time. So, with players asking to be able to smith their own suits of armour, or wanting to take that rare ore they found and make their own magical sword...well I take the rules for the 'between adventures' sections of the core rulebooks and I modify them. In my games it takes 40 hours of in game time to develop a new feat or proficiency.
Now let's say we're using Gritty Realism as our resting model. Here's how it goes.
Players venture out into the nearby caves where they've heard of a band of Kobold Thieves. They have a few fights and while victorious manage to take a bit of damage here and there. They decide on a short rest. This gives the party the change for a montaged campfire scene. My players can indulge in more fantasy that their characters have gotten to know each other more deeply because that short rest took 8 hours.
The party then heads back home to properly heal up and recover from the ordeal. They get back but it's going to take 7 days for their injuries to heal up properly. Great! Now they get to walk around this interesting city. They get to develop new contacts, they get to conduct some research on this weird artefact they found, they even get to train up in a new skill. Perhaps they brew a potion. Perhaps you introduce the players to the Creating a Spell mechanic from the DMG and they spend the time in their wizard workshop designing new spells, or brewing potions.
[Side note, Kobold Press' Gamemaster's Guide for Tales of the Valiant puts the DMG to shame in how it's written, but also has some awesome downtime activities that can plug immediately into 5e (and I assume 5.5e)]
The point here is that if I employ Gritty Realism, I would usually do so not to make the game more difficult, but rather to encourage our play group to explore more of the mechanics and rules that appear in the books and that most DMs never really look into. It can be fun, if you employ it with the right group.
I think there are still math issues with most of the slow-down healing approaches.
The issue with D&D is that Hit Points are irrelevant to the readiness of an adventuring party. As long as they have any health, they are at full strength so while you might think that not letting players "fully recover" hit points is some sort of detriment, it's mostly psychological (players like being at full health) it has no actual impact on their ability to take on encounters or the mathmatics.
Furthermore, with the exception of very early levels, the amount of spells most classes get doesn't really deter alpha strikes and the full power potential of an adventuring party unless you do back-to-back encounters and block them from resting entirely, which is generally detrimental and boring to execute.
The only effective attribute in the game with a lasting impact that exists that will actually affect characters are Exhaustion Levels.
A simple solution is to give exhaustion levels as part of daily activity.
1. 8 Hours of activity = 1 exhaustion level 2. Each battle causes 1 exhaustion level 3. Each time you get knocked unconscious, you gain 2 exhaustion levels
As the only way to get rid of an exhaustion level is to do a long rest and you can only get rid of 1 at a time, players will take penalties. It is also thematically appropriate, as it makes perfect sense to become exhausted from doing stuff and having bad stuff happen to you.
while I wouldn't mind giving gritty realism a try sometime, this doesn't sound remotely fun.
Agreed. Personally, I think all of these alterations that attempt to make things more difficult for the players or capture some sense of realism miss the entire point of modern D&D design. To reach their own, but I question the logic of re-designing a game to make it what you want, rather than just finding a game that does what you want.
5e is a power fantasy; that is what it does, that is the design goal of the game. It does what it does very well. If you don't want a power fantasy, you're probably playing the wrong game.
Most of these alterations don't fix it because people are trying to hold on to the power fantasy while still somehow not. Using Exhaustion kills the power fantasy; it does its job of heavily punishing players for stretching themselves too far, exactly what would be the case in reality...exactly what is being requested here.. but if you read between the lines, that's also not it, really. It's sort of like trying to design for someone who has not decided what they really want. If you want realism, targeting an aspect of characters that players can't just "execute something" to fix it is how you do it. You can't fix exhaustion levels... a couple of fights and an 8-hour day and the characters are going to have to rest for several days to recover. That's what traversing a fantasy world full of monsters would actually be like for mere mortals. But as you point out.. thats not fun, because what is fun is the power fantasy.
Its a playstyle thing that comes down to preference but while 5e covers a lot of ground in terms of playstyles... its core design is a power fantasy... realism really has no place in the design space. Its just ... not what its for. You CAN fix it, but you have to ask yourself first... what are you trying to fix.
If realism is the goal, D&D 5e is absolutely not the right game. Its designed on purpose with great intent to be hyper unrealistic. Its, in a word, a Marvel movie....
while I wouldn't mind giving gritty realism a try sometime, this doesn't sound remotely fun.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
My experience as a player, was actually that Gritty Realism opens out a lot more options. It kind of enforces a pace that almost requires social encounters, downtime, and even training. The DMG does a truly awful job of explaining possible use cases. It's not about making the game more difficult, but rather about changing the pacing.
Here's how I would use it and why I'd use it.
I've got players who want to do crafting, training, or researching (for which there are rules in the 5e players' handbook). With 250 days to gain a new proficiency or skill that's a lot of in game time. In game it's possible to get from level 1 to 20 on encounters alone in a tenth of that time. So, with players asking to be able to smith their own suits of armour, or wanting to take that rare ore they found and make their own magical sword...well I take the rules for the 'between adventures' sections of the core rulebooks and I modify them. In my games it takes 40 hours of in game time to develop a new feat or proficiency.
Now let's say we're using Gritty Realism as our resting model. Here's how it goes.
Players venture out into the nearby caves where they've heard of a band of Kobold Thieves. They have a few fights and while victorious manage to take a bit of damage here and there. They decide on a short rest. This gives the party the change for a montaged campfire scene. My players can indulge in more fantasy that their characters have gotten to know each other more deeply because that short rest took 8 hours.
The party then heads back home to properly heal up and recover from the ordeal. They get back but it's going to take 7 days for their injuries to heal up properly. Great! Now they get to walk around this interesting city. They get to develop new contacts, they get to conduct some research on this weird artefact they found, they even get to train up in a new skill. Perhaps they brew a potion. Perhaps you introduce the players to the Creating a Spell mechanic from the DMG and they spend the time in their wizard workshop designing new spells, or brewing potions.
[Side note, Kobold Press' Gamemaster's Guide for Tales of the Valiant puts the DMG to shame in how it's written, but also has some awesome downtime activities that can plug immediately into 5e (and I assume 5.5e)]
The point here is that if I employ Gritty Realism, I would usually do so not to make the game more difficult, but rather to encourage our play group to explore more of the mechanics and rules that appear in the books and that most DMs never really look into. It can be fun, if you employ it with the right group.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Agreed. Personally, I think all of these alterations that attempt to make things more difficult for the players or capture some sense of realism miss the entire point of modern D&D design. To reach their own, but I question the logic of re-designing a game to make it what you want, rather than just finding a game that does what you want.
5e is a power fantasy; that is what it does, that is the design goal of the game. It does what it does very well. If you don't want a power fantasy, you're probably playing the wrong game.
Most of these alterations don't fix it because people are trying to hold on to the power fantasy while still somehow not. Using Exhaustion kills the power fantasy; it does its job of heavily punishing players for stretching themselves too far, exactly what would be the case in reality...exactly what is being requested here.. but if you read between the lines, that's also not it, really. It's sort of like trying to design for someone who has not decided what they really want. If you want realism, targeting an aspect of characters that players can't just "execute something" to fix it is how you do it. You can't fix exhaustion levels... a couple of fights and an 8-hour day and the characters are going to have to rest for several days to recover. That's what traversing a fantasy world full of monsters would actually be like for mere mortals. But as you point out.. thats not fun, because what is fun is the power fantasy.
Its a playstyle thing that comes down to preference but while 5e covers a lot of ground in terms of playstyles... its core design is a power fantasy... realism really has no place in the design space. Its just ... not what its for. You CAN fix it, but you have to ask yourself first... what are you trying to fix.
If realism is the goal, D&D 5e is absolutely not the right game. Its designed on purpose with great intent to be hyper unrealistic. Its, in a word, a Marvel movie....