Background first - Playing through Out of the Abyss and the party just finished Lost Tomb of Khaem. On leaving the tomb they were ambushed by the Drow scout party chasing them through the Underdark. They finished the encounter and were standing on the boat, with the Ixitachi (spelling?) Swimming around the boat.
One of the players, a Tortle Warlock (who's patron is Eilistraee, important!), Pushes Sarith (an NPC travelling with the party) off the boat on purpose to be eaten by the manta rays.
Now, I'm fine with this happening, that's not the issue. The issue is that when I mention to the player that they've just done the polar opposite of what their patron is all about and that there may be consequences in the future (we did this through roleplay).
Eilistraee is a Drow goddess whos followers include Drow looking for a better life and to escape the Underdark. For those that don't know, Sarith is slowly going mad, but is not trying to kill the party, and just wants to get away from the house he was exiled from at the start of the game.
The player is not happy and is not willing to see that he's pissed off his patron. I don't want to make it not fun for him, but I do still need to address it as I don't want everyone now thinking they can be murder hobos without consequences.
Can anyone suggest some consequences for what he's done? Or if any one disagrees that there should even be consequences?
My initial thought was to take his pact weapon or spells away until he can redeem himself, but this may be a bit too far. So looking for some help.
Consequences definitely need to happen, but taking away his pact weapon or spells is a bit much. What I would do is during combat any spell he uses to do damage does half damage. RP that his spell hits, but doesn't seem to do the same damage as it usually does. Then have his patron speak to him in his head and tell him that until he redeems himself, he won't be as effective. If he refuses, I'd have him gradually fall out of favor with his patron.
Absolutely - if you feel there should be consequences, then there should - and you’re in charge of what they are. You are playing Eilistraee - and you made a pact with the player. If that pact is broken, what lesson do you want to teach them?
The entire point of playing DnD over other games, is that actions carry genuine repercussions. And while I understand you don’t want your player to be miserable, they need to understand that the world does not (purely) revolve around them.
My advice is always to work it into the narrative though. Allow it to be part of the players arc. Perhaps your player has to make it up somehow to their patron to restore trust - a sidequest or demonstration of their commitment. Perhaps it can be used as a bargaining chip for Eilistraee to have more sway over the player’s next move.
Or perhaps you want to send a warning. A dream, or removing pact powers for a short while to send a message. If you’re stripping the player’s abilities and spells, make sure there’s a way to get them back - but a price to pay.
It could be a really great chapter in the player’s story - hopefully you can manage to make it satisfying.
A counter-argument here that might need to be considered, is that Warlocks are not Clerics.
The way I interpret it - and others may see it differently - is that rather than receiving spells and abilities daily, the Warlock receives them one time. It's an exchange of an ability, for an agreement to promote a certain agenda, perform certain tasks, or as a reward for past behaviors. It's a contract.
Clerics, on the other hand, receive power so long as they're working continuously on the agenda/goals of their deity ( which should be theirs as well, or why are they worshiping that God?). It's an ongoing relationship.
Put another way - Clerics get a daily supply of ammunition; Warlocks get a gun one time ( and hand load their own ammo ).
If that's how you want to play Warlocks ( again, this is just an interpretation ), then the current powers of the Warlock have been granted, and are not likely to be able to be revoked.
However - future class abilities might be withheld if the Warlock/Patron relationship goes sour. If you screw me on a contract, or I don't like the quality of your work, why would I hire you again?
If you go this route, I would absolutely not make this non-recoverable. Give the Player/Character a means of redeeming themselves in the eyes of their Patron - "OK, you disappointed me, but you made good on the debt, and concretely demonstrated that our goals are in alignment ... maybe we can still do business ...".
I'd actually make that whole Patron relationship reclamation an entire adventure arc for the Player/Party.
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I do think I remember one of the creators saying that Pact powers are given indefinitely. I will have another look to ensure I'm not doing anything I shouldn't.
Thanks for your suggestions. I would never strip someone of powers permanently, that's for sure. But just a lesson and I do think it can be made into an interesting story arc.
I like the idea of not allowing any more levels of Warlock until he has redeemed himself. I also like nerfing his powers a little in the meantime too. Let's just hope he sees the bright side and learns from this!
Yes, it’s definitely worth approaching this from a bargain or contract point of view when considering consequences.
What does the pact look like to your player - perhaps they can renegotiate the terms - that could be fantastic to play out.
Regarding whether the power is ‘borrowed’ or permanently bestowed, it’s not clear in any rules in the same way that a divinely blessed class such as a paladin is when they go against their god. So I think you’re free to interpret it in your own way.
I do like the idea of being able to scheme, double cross or work against a patron though, without them being able to take back the power.
Reminds me of a conversation I had once around what would happen to a warlock’s powers if they killed their patron. But that’s getting off topic.
As another side note - for those of you who follow Critical Role - we're coming to a point where a Warlock is very likely to cross their own Patron. Should be interesting to see how that is handled.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Maybe the patron could just try to annoy him. Nothing serious, at first. Maybe some random message on a tree telling him to repent. Maybe another warlock of the deity might sneak past him and whisper to him. Just minor things, that would get annoying. It would also have the looming threat of "What will happen?"
Not allowing them to take any more levels in warlock would also work.
On their next long rest, have it disrupted by enemies sent to assassinate your warlock. The rest of his party is nowhere to be found. Have the enemies be overpowered. Combat should only be a couple rounds. As one of the enemies delivers the killing blow, have them say "This is for displeasing her. Continue on this path and even worse awaits." Then as he is killed, he wakes up. (With a level of exhaustion, and the dreams continue each night for a couple nights)
As said before, warlocks are different than divine. But use that. You make a deity angry, they'll strip you of your powers, but you make a patron angry they are coming after you. Either in your head or by sending their thralls after you.
I would consider an escalating set of consequences. At first the player may have "Bad Dreams" and not receive the full effect of a normal short or long rest. This might grow in consequence over time. Later I might add encounters with folks true to the goddess that advise party to repent of their past transgressions. Eventually the player may have to have a direct intervention with someone highly favored by the goddess that tells him straight up he needs to make amends with the goddess, and this could easily be the theme of another chapter in their story.
The first thing to question is why would this player would pick Eilistraee as their patroness if they are going to make their character go against what she stands for?
That said, about how Eilistraee would react, it's important to consider that she is very subtle and delicate in her interaction with mortals. She would want to understand why the character behaved like that, their motivations, and would want to let them emotionally realize the extent of what they have done, as to let them understand the suffering that such acts cause and therefore lead them to change their future behaviour. This would be a priority for Eilistraee; deities make clerics or other kinds of agents in order to act and be present when they wouldn't physically be able to. For example, there are limited ways in which they can act on the prime, and they are neither all-knowing, nor all-powerful. This is especially true for someone like Eilistraee, whose power is little, and who, while doing all she can to personally help and confort the drow in their everyday life in her lore, absolutely needs her priest(esse)s (or agents in general) to further her already difficult quest. She needs her followers to show the drow that different path exists and leads to happiness, to show compassion and to make them feel safe, in order for them to embrace another way. What the tortle warlock did would certainly upset and sadden the Dark Maiden.
So, there are specific ways in which Eilistraee can manifest her displeasure (like a feeling of cold in hands and feet, impossibility to create art or to catch anything while hunting), but I think that those are for minor issues, and that she would take this case further. For example, she might try to explore the player's motivation by sending them a dream (Eilistraee often uses dreams and visions to communicate) that put them in a series of specific situations to see how he would react and understand the emotions that made him try to kill the drow. She could show to the tortle what Sarith went through in his life (all drow born under Lolth go through a life deprived of love and affection and filled with hatred and strife) trying to elicit compassion and to show that he was worthy of being helped, healed from the madness, and brought in her light, rather than killed. Or that maybe there's someone who cared for him (or that he cared for and that still needs him) and how they're suffering due to the tortle's act (and, I mean, Eilistraee herself would be mourning him and his soul being taken by Lolth), in order to lead the PC to realize and feel the impact of what they have done (and maybe make amend by helping the people who were close to Sarith). Keep in mind that, If needed, Eilistraee can directly manifest (generally cloaked, as mysterious yet kind drow woman) and interact with mortals. However, she's never invasive and always delicate.
In short, before proceeding to carry out actual punishment, Eilistraee would try to understand the PC's motivations, and, in turn, make them understand the suffering that they have caused, and empathize with it. That's a step towards empathizing with others in general, stopping to think about what someone might have gone through, or about the people that might depend on them, or about what they could become, the beauty and good that they have the potential to create, before taking a life. To Eilistraee, it would be of vital importance, because she'd certainly want her agents--this particular tortle included--to spread hope and compassion, and especially to bring those to the drow who languish under Lolth. I like the idea, that another poster proposed, of putting the PC's advancement in warlock levels on hold until Eilistraee is certain that she can trust them.
Thanks, Irennan. I really like that explanation. I had the same thought process and he has already had a short dream with her beforehand. Showing him Sarith's life beforehand will be great. After reading through Eilistraee a little bit, I think your explanation expands on that so thanks.
He didn't really agree with me that he was acting against his patron. I did explain what she stands for, but maybe a more deeper and involved 'conversation' would be beneficial.
Hey all,
Background first - Playing through Out of the Abyss and the party just finished Lost Tomb of Khaem. On leaving the tomb they were ambushed by the Drow scout party chasing them through the Underdark. They finished the encounter and were standing on the boat, with the Ixitachi (spelling?) Swimming around the boat.
One of the players, a Tortle Warlock (who's patron is Eilistraee, important!), Pushes Sarith (an NPC travelling with the party) off the boat on purpose to be eaten by the manta rays.
Now, I'm fine with this happening, that's not the issue. The issue is that when I mention to the player that they've just done the polar opposite of what their patron is all about and that there may be consequences in the future (we did this through roleplay).
Eilistraee is a Drow goddess whos followers include Drow looking for a better life and to escape the Underdark. For those that don't know, Sarith is slowly going mad, but is not trying to kill the party, and just wants to get away from the house he was exiled from at the start of the game.
The player is not happy and is not willing to see that he's pissed off his patron. I don't want to make it not fun for him, but I do still need to address it as I don't want everyone now thinking they can be murder hobos without consequences.
Can anyone suggest some consequences for what he's done? Or if any one disagrees that there should even be consequences?
My initial thought was to take his pact weapon or spells away until he can redeem himself, but this may be a bit too far. So looking for some help.
Thanks,
Consequences definitely need to happen, but taking away his pact weapon or spells is a bit much. What I would do is during combat any spell he uses to do damage does half damage. RP that his spell hits, but doesn't seem to do the same damage as it usually does. Then have his patron speak to him in his head and tell him that until he redeems himself, he won't be as effective. If he refuses, I'd have him gradually fall out of favor with his patron.
Absolutely - if you feel there should be consequences, then there should - and you’re in charge of what they are. You are playing Eilistraee - and you made a pact with the player. If that pact is broken, what lesson do you want to teach them?
The entire point of playing DnD over other games, is that actions carry genuine repercussions. And while I understand you don’t want your player to be miserable, they need to understand that the world does not (purely) revolve around them.
My advice is always to work it into the narrative though. Allow it to be part of the players arc. Perhaps your player has to make it up somehow to their patron to restore trust - a sidequest or demonstration of their commitment. Perhaps it can be used as a bargaining chip for Eilistraee to have more sway over the player’s next move.
Or perhaps you want to send a warning. A dream, or removing pact powers for a short while to send a message. If you’re stripping the player’s abilities and spells, make sure there’s a way to get them back - but a price to pay.
It could be a really great chapter in the player’s story - hopefully you can manage to make it satisfying.
A counter-argument here that might need to be considered, is that Warlocks are not Clerics.
The way I interpret it - and others may see it differently - is that rather than receiving spells and abilities daily, the Warlock receives them one time. It's an exchange of an ability, for an agreement to promote a certain agenda, perform certain tasks, or as a reward for past behaviors. It's a contract.
Clerics, on the other hand, receive power so long as they're working continuously on the agenda/goals of their deity ( which should be theirs as well, or why are they worshiping that God?). It's an ongoing relationship.
Put another way - Clerics get a daily supply of ammunition; Warlocks get a gun one time ( and hand load their own ammo ).
If that's how you want to play Warlocks ( again, this is just an interpretation ), then the current powers of the Warlock have been granted, and are not likely to be able to be revoked.
However - future class abilities might be withheld if the Warlock/Patron relationship goes sour. If you screw me on a contract, or I don't like the quality of your work, why would I hire you again?
If you go this route, I would absolutely not make this non-recoverable. Give the Player/Character a means of redeeming themselves in the eyes of their Patron - "OK, you disappointed me, but you made good on the debt, and concretely demonstrated that our goals are in alignment ... maybe we can still do business ...".
I'd actually make that whole Patron relationship reclamation an entire adventure arc for the Player/Party.
Anyway, just my take on it.
Best of luck!
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I do think I remember one of the creators saying that Pact powers are given indefinitely. I will have another look to ensure I'm not doing anything I shouldn't.
Thanks for your suggestions. I would never strip someone of powers permanently, that's for sure. But just a lesson and I do think it can be made into an interesting story arc.
I like the idea of not allowing any more levels of Warlock until he has redeemed himself. I also like nerfing his powers a little in the meantime too. Let's just hope he sees the bright side and learns from this!
Yes, it’s definitely worth approaching this from a bargain or contract point of view when considering consequences.
What does the pact look like to your player - perhaps they can renegotiate the terms - that could be fantastic to play out.
Regarding whether the power is ‘borrowed’ or permanently bestowed, it’s not clear in any rules in the same way that a divinely blessed class such as a paladin is when they go against their god. So I think you’re free to interpret it in your own way.
I do like the idea of being able to scheme, double cross or work against a patron though, without them being able to take back the power.
Reminds me of a conversation I had once around what would happen to a warlock’s powers if they killed their patron. But that’s getting off topic.
As another side note - for those of you who follow Critical Role - we're coming to a point where a Warlock is very likely to cross their own Patron. Should be interesting to see how that is handled.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Maybe the patron could just try to annoy him. Nothing serious, at first. Maybe some random message on a tree telling him to repent. Maybe another warlock of the deity might sneak past him and whisper to him. Just minor things, that would get annoying. It would also have the looming threat of "What will happen?"
Not allowing them to take any more levels in warlock would also work.
On their next long rest, have it disrupted by enemies sent to assassinate your warlock. The rest of his party is nowhere to be found. Have the enemies be overpowered. Combat should only be a couple rounds. As one of the enemies delivers the killing blow, have them say "This is for displeasing her. Continue on this path and even worse awaits." Then as he is killed, he wakes up. (With a level of exhaustion, and the dreams continue each night for a couple nights)
As said before, warlocks are different than divine. But use that. You make a deity angry, they'll strip you of your powers, but you make a patron angry they are coming after you. Either in your head or by sending their thralls after you.
I would consider an escalating set of consequences. At first the player may have "Bad Dreams" and not receive the full effect of a normal short or long rest. This might grow in consequence over time. Later I might add encounters with folks true to the goddess that advise party to repent of their past transgressions. Eventually the player may have to have a direct intervention with someone highly favored by the goddess that tells him straight up he needs to make amends with the goddess, and this could easily be the theme of another chapter in their story.
Good luck.
The first thing to question is why would this player would pick Eilistraee as their patroness if they are going to make their character go against what she stands for?
That said, about how Eilistraee would react, it's important to consider that she is very subtle and delicate in her interaction with mortals. She would want to understand why the character behaved like that, their motivations, and would want to let them emotionally realize the extent of what they have done, as to let them understand the suffering that such acts cause and therefore lead them to change their future behaviour. This would be a priority for Eilistraee; deities make clerics or other kinds of agents in order to act and be present when they wouldn't physically be able to. For example, there are limited ways in which they can act on the prime, and they are neither all-knowing, nor all-powerful. This is especially true for someone like Eilistraee, whose power is little, and who, while doing all she can to personally help and confort the drow in their everyday life in her lore, absolutely needs her priest(esse)s (or agents in general) to further her already difficult quest. She needs her followers to show the drow that different path exists and leads to happiness, to show compassion and to make them feel safe, in order for them to embrace another way. What the tortle warlock did would certainly upset and sadden the Dark Maiden.
So, there are specific ways in which Eilistraee can manifest her displeasure (like a feeling of cold in hands and feet, impossibility to create art or to catch anything while hunting), but I think that those are for minor issues, and that she would take this case further. For example, she might try to explore the player's motivation by sending them a dream (Eilistraee often uses dreams and visions to communicate) that put them in a series of specific situations to see how he would react and understand the emotions that made him try to kill the drow. She could show to the tortle what Sarith went through in his life (all drow born under Lolth go through a life deprived of love and affection and filled with hatred and strife) trying to elicit compassion and to show that he was worthy of being helped, healed from the madness, and brought in her light, rather than killed. Or that maybe there's someone who cared for him (or that he cared for and that still needs him) and how they're suffering due to the tortle's act (and, I mean, Eilistraee herself would be mourning him and his soul being taken by Lolth), in order to lead the PC to realize and feel the impact of what they have done (and maybe make amend by helping the people who were close to Sarith). Keep in mind that, If needed, Eilistraee can directly manifest (generally cloaked, as mysterious yet kind drow woman) and interact with mortals. However, she's never invasive and always delicate.
In short, before proceeding to carry out actual punishment, Eilistraee would try to understand the PC's motivations, and, in turn, make them understand the suffering that they have caused, and empathize with it. That's a step towards empathizing with others in general, stopping to think about what someone might have gone through, or about the people that might depend on them, or about what they could become, the beauty and good that they have the potential to create, before taking a life. To Eilistraee, it would be of vital importance, because she'd certainly want her agents--this particular tortle included--to spread hope and compassion, and especially to bring those to the drow who languish under Lolth. I like the idea, that another poster proposed, of putting the PC's advancement in warlock levels on hold until Eilistraee is certain that she can trust them.
Thanks, Irennan. I really like that explanation. I had the same thought process and he has already had a short dream with her beforehand. Showing him Sarith's life beforehand will be great. After reading through Eilistraee a little bit, I think your explanation expands on that so thanks.
He didn't really agree with me that he was acting against his patron. I did explain what she stands for, but maybe a more deeper and involved 'conversation' would be beneficial.
Again, thanks for the advice.
Glad to be of help!