I find that Inspiration is almost never used by Players. Perhaps I'm not doing it correctly; maybe I'm not stressing it enough. But a "reward" which isn't valued is useless for encouraging Player behavior.
Have you talked with them about why they aren't using Inspiration?
I've also found that difficulty with Inspiration & similar mechanics from other systems (i.e "Hero Points") before. When I ask a player (whether I'm DM or another player) why they don't ever use the bonus they've been given, the answer is almost always, "I don't know when or if I'll ever be rewarded with [insert named resource] again, so I'm saving it for a life-or-death situation".
If you explain to your players the generalized "rate" at which you intend to reward resources for good RP/behavior, they'll use 'em. Otherwise, yeah, more players are likely going to just sit on the resource until they absolutely need to cash it in to survive something.
As for "in game" rewards for Player behaviors ( coming up with a clever idea, developing their Character, etc. ) it's tricky as I now meed to come with an "in world" reason why the Character is receiving a boon for something the Player did.
I don't see how that's tricky in the slightest. Everything a player does is carried out by their character. In the literal sense, because RP, but also figuratively. Have a player on their phone all session, not paying attention to anything past their own character? Well, their character was spaced out all session too, so they were not able to earn the same amount of "lived" experience as the rest of the table.
If a player comes up with a creative solution to a problem that their character can't solve, coordinates with another player/character to accomplish, and RPs the scene between characters, then it's not just something the player did. For all intents and purposes, their character came up with the idea. If the player just tells other players what to do, that's meta-gaming, and nobody should be getting rewarded for that anyway.
I'm not sure how "staggering" milestone rewards would work, since milestone are supposed to be tied to story events. By staggering milestone to when the Player "deserves it", you are tying rewards to the level based on Player effort. There's already a system which directly ties Character effort to Character reward: XP. You are correct "It's the exact same concept as handing out (or withholding) EXP based on merit" - so why not just use XP?
That's an option of how to use milestones; The very last one, actually. Milestones can be defined in any way that you feel appropriate for your campaigns. In the end, it all amounts to the same thing.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I currently have a small XP bonus for "clever thinking" - combat tactics, clever conversational gambits, interesting ways around obstacles, and the like.
This is because I want to encourage/reward the Players towards creative thinking and interesting solutions.
If I decided to phase out XP rewards ( because I'm moving to milestones ), and instead reward them with "things like minor boons, land ownership, NPC contacts, discounts on certain item(s), greater resources, etc.", how does that work? The Party is by themselves, in a Dungeon, and one of the Players has a personal insight which allows them to bypass the "dwarven gates" ... and suddenly they are rewarded with a land title? Such rewards need in story justification. Either I have to build rewards into the scene, even if they don't make Narrative sense, for the meta-gaming reason that I want to encourage the behavior ( plus, I have to retain an option to withhold the benefit if they don't use a "clever solution", which still makes sense to the Narrative ), or abandon the idea of behavior reward.
It's far far easier to have a default XP bonus to toss at a Player which comes up with a clever solution, or not if they don't come up with a creative way around the problem.
With a generous enough interpretation, what I'm doing IS milestone leveling, I'm just making a conversion of a "milestone" to an equivalent amount of XP
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Heres my views on CR type gaming and i agree with many of you...
CR is heavily focused on stories. The numbers of players who want that are very limited. Most players wants "their" stories. On CR they are professionnals. Look at travis and how patient he is on CR with grog. Thats the level of patience most players arent even close to get to. Thats the major difference between most tables and CR.
Now at my table. I cannot ryn linear stories. My players want their stories and will not care for what i do unless it involves their backgrounds. I tryed many a premade adventure on them and most of them do not follow and some of them starts to wonder how they can screw the story up to make it more interesting. So i have no choice with them. Its open world. I have a few plot lines and if the players want to get involved then fine !
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Dont like milestone leveling. Mostly because I am pro- PC choice so it could take like 15 or 20 sessions to get back to the main story or that may be abandoned completely.
Milestone isn't strictly dependant on a main story. Some campaigns don't even have one. Milestone just means the pc's level up when any kind of significant milestone happens, whether personal, physical, story, or skill based, at the DM's discretion. It's literally just when the party reaches a milestone that the DM deems significant enough. They can even change what that means on the fly depending on the kind of choices the players make. Like, if the players ignore the main story and therefore won't level up after killing the evil necromancer you had planned, maybe fighting the dragon that was terrorizing the village they were protecting from orcs will do it it's it's a particularly white-knuckle fight.
And if you don't like that players level too quick then milestone is your friend there too, since the levels are literally just up to you, the DM, rather than dependent on exp grinds.
Except that milestones makes the players unable to see developments and thus often feel behind. So it becomes up to the dm to give them the morale check to make sure they dont feel like nothing is being done. While with experience the player can directly see the results of their advancement and thus they can boost their own morales as they can see their next level coming even though the story isnt completed.
Playing milestones in campaign 1. I was expecting them to be level 15 at the end and after a bunch of stuff happened they still have been level 6. Because they literally skipped everything. While in campaign 2. They started level 1 and are now level 4 and they always talk to me about how they cant wait for the next level and it even makes them want to go further in the story and stop fleeing everything.
Overall my own experience is... Experience is better as it gives the player a ressource to manage that will give them a sense of advancement. While milestone is literally in the hand of the dm and the players feel left behind if they dont see advancement.
A good exemple is adventurers league and its xp rewards.
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So it becomes up to the dm to give them the morale check to make sure they dont feel like nothing is being done.
This could be a case of "gaming tables are different". From my perspective there is a lot more going on in a story to "get things done" than just an arbitrary character level. Did the players rescue or not rescue an NPC? Are they now wanted by nearby towns or local heroes? Have they drawn attention from greater powers that now threaten them? Are thieves now after them, knowing that they have stolen a dragon's hoard?
I agree that XP gives you an "mmo effect" like an experience bar, if that's the experience you want in your game then go for it. I like a more open sandbox where the world changes based on the characters' actions and as they influence the world more, they go up in level. It's not a "kill a black dragon" you earned a milestone level, it's more like did we complete a story whether it was "plotted" or not, and how did that affect the game world?
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"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
This could be a case of "gaming tables are different". From my perspective there is a lot more going on in a story to "get things done" than just an arbitrary character level. Did the players rescue or not rescue an NPC? Are they now wanted by nearby towns or local heroes? Have they drawn attention from greater powers that now threaten them? Are thieves now after them, knowing that they have stolen a dragon's hoard?
I agree that XP gives you an "mmo effect" like an experience bar, if that's the experience you want in your game then go for it. I like a more open sandbox where the world changes based on the characters' actions and as they influence the world more, they go up in level. It's not a "kill a black dragon" you earned a milestone level, it's more like did we complete a story whether it was "plotted" or not, and how did that affect the game world?
( my emphasis above )
You're absolutely correct that there are other means of demonstrating progress to the Players, but you're implying a false dichotomy here. This isn't an "MMO feel" vs. having a "story base impact of the world" choice - you can have both.
Let's take a step back here and clarify what we're talking about: Are we talking about Milestones, Session Based Advancement, Story Based Advancement, or "... s%#$, I haven't leveled them up in forever, so everyone levels up!"? We seem to be using them all interchangeably.
If we're talking about Milestones as per the DMG, then what we're describing is not doing precise XP calculations, but figuring XP in "chunks" of a predetermined size: they're level 3, that was a Deadly level combat, they get 300XP. This I like. I don't have to do precise XP calculations down to the single XP point, and I can still dole out XP rewards for certain behaviors I want to encourage: "that was a clever idea! You get 1/2 an Easy Encounter in bonus XP ( 40XP @ level 3 )". I can also attach "chunks" of XP to ( potential ) events in the story: they rescue the monster from the evil princess, they get 500 XP. You see that in published module design.
If we're talking about Session Based Advancement, we're talking about leveling up the Party automatically after a predetermined number of game sessions; 2-3 for most levels. This I hate. What's a "session"? You do 6 hour Saturday afternoon sessions, where your Players are wading through seas of Monster blood, while I do 3 hours Wednesday nights, where my Players sit around haggling with merchants to get a 10% discount on that long sword, and both Parties are supposed to level up after 3 Sessions? Sarah is fully engaged with her Character, making choices based on Character knowledge, thinking tactically, creatively solving problems, and helping her teammates; Frank is dozing off in the corner on his phone, checking Facebook periodically - these Players both advance at the same rate?
If we're talking about Story Based Advancement, we're talking about leveling up the Party when they reach a "significant story event". This I think has great promise in theory; fails in Practice. Players never make a beeline for the story point we think will happen next. They wander over here; they wander over there; they bypass story elements we thought they'd interact with; they almost never get to a given point in the story when we think they would. No problem, we'll just dole out a level when we as DMs judge they've made "significant progress"? Yeah ... that tends to be semi-arbitrary, and as a Player, I have no visibility to how I'm doing, or how I'm progressing. Yeah, I can see we have had a impact on the world around us: was that "significant" yet, DM? This approach has a really arbitrary feel ( because, face it, it is arbitrary - relying on DM "gut feel" ), and takes away the Players' sense of concrete progress. If your campaign could run on rails, then this wouldn't be a bad approach at all. As it is - that pesky Player free will often makes this approach either untenable, or collapses it into purely arbitrary and "gut feel" leveling of the Party. Which leads up to ...
"s%#$, I haven't leveled them up in forever, so everyone levels up!" - which is just an out-and-out failing of a lazy DM. Unfortunately, I think there's a pretty severe chance of Story Based Advancement, collapsing into this. Players have no sense of how they're progressing ( are those world changes "significant" yet? ), and if there's any consistency in Party leveling, it's probably accidental.
XP and Milestones as written in the DMG are actually pretty robust - and they're really just variants of each other, with Milestones being easier book-keeping on the DMs part. That's the system I've pretty much settled on.
I have yet to see a solid concrete argument as to why Session Based Advancement, or Story Based Advancement are better, only that they're easier for the DM, and my personal opinion on the matter is that that ease comes at a cost of consistency and transparency of progress for the Players.
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It is indeed up to the DM to give players the "moral" check when using milestone leveling. However... How can players get the feeling they aren't achieving anything? They're constantly doing something, making decisions and such that lead to clashes with whatever else is going on in the world. Whatever the PC's do leads to some sort of impact on their direct environment. Not even mentioning the subtle things happening behind the screen that can come back at a later point. My players have cleared a citadel in which they made decisions that had a direct impact on the local township, but tied in with a later development of being a pain in the ass to some huge army/evil. Later villages they got boons and other things. If your players are so reliant on seeing some bar fill up with xp or else they can't see advancement and be engaged/motivated enough to keep going....well... **** them, if they were my players. However in case of lacking engagement....that is a DM's fault and needs to be solved. Got people dozing off onto social media instead of playing. You're failing as a DM to keep that player engaged.
You don't have to build in weird reasons to grant land ownership and such. Once again it comes down to having a talk with the players before even starting the campaign. Talk about elements you will include. For example I mentioned that once Matt Colville's Stronghold & Followers would release.. I'd incorporate elements of that in the game we play. Meaning more clear rules for land ownership and development, keeps etc. Which sparked my players to talk about possibilities. Listening to them talk it sparked ideas for events/quests/stories for me to throw at them. When they encountered a casino one of them wanted to buy it up, which of course can't be done that easily..especially not at lvl 3 with only a few 100 gold coins to their name. Thus leading to its own set of quests. Have a ruined keep somewhere that involves its own set of events. Depending on how the PC's reputation with the locals/lords is they might be able to buy or earn the right to the Keep...maybe even get a title and thus be allowed to get taxes from the local village(s) nearby etc. Which then leads to its own set of events. Which in turn can lead to engaging and interesting "down time activities" that prolong the real time played. Which this thread is about. its not about milestone leveling.
Witht he descriptions above... guess I'm aching more towards "story based" milestones, but not strictly. I got a main red thread, framework, at the start of a campaign. In which I roughly know when my players would become lvl 1 through 12. However during play the players do a lot of unexpected things. They can deal with other situations, create different clashes that have to be dealt with etc. Meaning they're going "off track". I just adjust the moments of the milestone accordingly along the way. Meaning the original lvl 12 milestone eventually ends up being a lvl20 milestone due to lots of stuff happening/changing as per player influence. And yes at the start my players did ask "when do we level up" and my answer was "when I tell you to". Or if I knew they were close to something major "soon". However after all this time their mindset has changed. They don't worry about xp, they trust the DM, and they focus on the events in the game itself. In life progress doesn't come planned and at a predictable pace. You have moments where you bust your ass and barely make progress. While another time you make fast progress in quick succession. That's what happened often enough when I still did powerlifting at european level competition. So what if the "milestones" seem somewhat irregular.
For the point made towards party wide leveling up, even though some PC's might not have contributed as much as another. I just take the easy way out. If I were to use XP my players would level up so damn fast. They could easily gain twice as many levels. Meaning that if a player can't make it to a session or two... Overall they could still have enough contribution overall to warrant a level up alongside the others. Especially with the point that not everyone, always, progresses at the same pace in reality either. So it might just be the case that at another point in the time another player might miss 1 or 2 sessions. It all evens out in the end. However this is pure speculation since my players haven't missed a single session yet.
Giving players rewards for what their characters do, or meta rewards to promote certain behavior... I'm not a fan of those at all. I don't use Inspiration since its nonsensical. Got trouble roleplaying your character then I rather use other ways to include the player. Get them to talk from a first person perspective for starters and go from there. They come up with something creative and weird I'll just give them a modifier in some way, which they don't know about. Instead of handing out Inspiration to use whenever they feel like it. Slowing stuff down with yet another die to roll. If they even remember that they got it. How many if your players would be willing to own up to something that has their PC, willingly, put their heads on the chopping block for a chance of insta-death?
I came to the same conclusion after 4 years of testing milestones abusively.
Let me add that for someone using a premade adventure and players follow it closely the milestones are pretty real. But thats only if all players are willing to follow the said adventure as is.
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That sounds like a lot of self justification to just avoid math - and the tried and true "if you can't make it work my way, you must be doing it wrong - or it's a bad Player" thrown in for good measure is a nice touch.
It's your game. Do what you will. If you want to make a railroad framework, attach major milestones to it, and either ram your Players down your framework, or, as you say, move your Milestones around to where you think it's "significant" - which now keeps you Players in the dark about when they will be leveling up and not whether they are affecting the world ( let's not change the focus ) - that's up to you.
If you want to strip out immediate psychologically significant Player rewards for good tactical thinking, and Player development, and attach them psychologically nebulously down the road to some in-story reward - that's again, totally up to you. I think it flies in the face of a century of educational, institutional, and industrial psychological theory, but it's your table. If you want to give them secret rewards ( now that's a new one by me! ) - "give them a modifier in some way, which they don't know about" - so you can tell yourself they've been rewarded, but they neither know that they've been rewarded, or why - well, to me that's weird, but OK, have at it.
I can kind of see not liking the idea of "shaping" Player behavior - that does feel kind of manipulative - but I think you should take a hard look at video game design ( where that sort of thing is rampant ), or your own workplace. It also - pretty undeniably - works. That's just how humans are wired. Don't believe me? Look at workplace and productivity bonuses, and tell me no one pays attention to them.
If you're terrified of the Players leveling up fast, but you aren't going to put in the minimal effort to tune the XP rewards down ( let's divide by 2 everyone! ) to match a leveling rate that suits your game ... I can't help you. If you've never heard of an old DM tactic of giving absent Player's Characters "sympathy XP" to keep them matched to the lowest XP member in the group - well, now you have. If you want to give every Player the exact same reward all the time, regardless of effort or engagement - up to you, but I think you've lost any right to complain about any Player's level of effort in the future; you've literally communicated all they have to do is show up.
I think you sum up very nicely every justification I've ever heard - or used myself, I'm no saint! - for Session Based Advancement or Story Based Advancement: "I just take the easy way out". I won't adjust my XP rewards from RAW; I won't track what my Players are doing; I won't take the effort to reward good play in a clear, consistent, and unambiguous way; I won't redesign my adventure on the fly to keep it relevant and challenging because Bob just leveled up and took water breathing and made my pre-planned scene trivial ( it's easier to just shift that milestone after this encounter so he can't ); I won't keep reward consistent and proportional to effort and contribution; I won't make the effort as a DM to run clear, concise, and consistent leveling mechanics: "I just take the easy way out".
Ultimately, It's your game. Do what you will. If it works for your table, then it works for your table. Just be sure it works for your table, and not just you. Just make sure you're not screwing your Players by making game rewards ( and yes, it's a game as well as a story ) arbitrary, inconsistent, and confusing, because you don't want to put in the effort to make a fair and consistent game reward system.
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Everybody is going to run the game differently, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone preferring the Experience model over the Milestone. There's been valid criticism given for Milestone leveling that I can understand and relate to, though they have not been factors in my own games, either as DM or a player.
But I do feel that there's a disservice being done on the part of story-based Milestones, and the idea that it cannot be used in open-world narratives. It comes across to me that there is an assumption that the DM will not be able to effectively gauge the group's progress outside of their own predetermined plot, therefore basing a criticism on Milestone leveling on an entirely unrelated failure of the DM.
Both Milestone and Experience models can be improperly used and fail to hit the mark when in the hands of an inexperienced or just plain bad DM. That shouldn't be used as a cause for criticism for either model.
In my personal experience, story-based Milestones has worked for me as both DM and player. Not once have I ever seen, heard or felt myself any of the issues raised against it, and we are a very communicative group. I've never felt underleveled, never felt like I couldn't see my own progress, I've felt plenty rewarded for out of the box thinking and roleplay. It's different yes, I see my progress in my character's development or the impact I've had on the setting and NPCs, rather than seeing a numerical value slowly increasing.
I enjoy this model, because it has made the balance between game and narrative more lean toward the narrative. The crunch of Experience takes a backseat to the fluff of Milestone. It's not everyone, and it's not perfect. It's certainly harder, the DM has to be more aware and intuitive, it's not as easy as just the Experience model. If you, as the DM, are often pressed for time, then maybe the Experience model is best for you, as it takes less effort. There's no singular choice here that is correct, both are good choices, table depending.
I think it's a matter of the flavor of the group, or rather of the individual Players.
D&D is a role-playinggame.
For Players whose focus is therole playing, properly executed Story Based Advancement ( which I'm going to use instead of Story Based Milestones, so-as not to confuse it with chunked-XP activity based Milestones) works well enough, if executed reasonably. And I have no issues with that, what-so-ever. I would hazard a guess, Conn_Eremon, that you're pretty story focused? Which is a great approach, and a table of story oriented Players is awesome for a DM to helm.
For Players who are more gamefocused, Story Based Advancement has the aforementioned issues. Can you picture playing a video game like Fallout 4, where you made progress in the quests, but had no clue when you were going to level up? Surprise! Seemingly random level up! It might actually work OK - but I can imagine there being a lot of very irate game reviews complaining about that aspect of the design.
The problem is, that no group is made of just one kind of Player - or at least that's rare.
If I use XP, or even "chunked XP milestones" (which is, IMO, a far superior system as it is simpler bookkeeping, while keeping a consistent mechanic ), my role play focused Players really don't care - especially if I'm putting XP milestones in for major plot accomplishments, so they get a sense of achievement for major plot developments. And especially if I'm doing the book-keeping for them.
If I use Story Based Advancement, my gamefocused Players do care, for the reasons stated above. They can't see their progress, they don't know they are being rewarded consistently, and the whole leveling mechanic feels flaky ( which it is ).
If you have a group entirelycomposed of character actors, totally focused on the story, and Character development, there's absolutely no reason not to adapt Story Based Advancement. The moment you get a "crunchy" tactical Player in the mix, you're probably short-changing them.
And I fully admit that I have a totally cynical belief that most ( but not all ) DMs don't adopt Story Based Advancement because it's better, or story focused, or conducive to a good Narrative - but because it's less work.
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There's an assumption here that story-focused players and game-focused players don't overlap, that a mixed group will have mixed responses. My group has two game-focused players. Both are min-maxers, who build their characters from the mechanical viewpoint first. I also have a player who builds his character solely from a narrative viewpoint, the mechanical viewpoint never once factoring in. The fourth player is very new to D&D, and is still feeling around for where her style is. I build my characters from a narrative viewpoint, but do factor in the mechanics of it.
I have a mixed group, but I do not have mixed responses. My game came first, I selected Milestone leveling purely with the intent to just try it out. I had no prior disposition or bias one way or another, it was just "something new." One of those players started a second game that he DMs, and he asked the group whether we wanted to do the Milestone or the Experience model. I abstained, because I thought it'd be a good chance to hear some feedback. The new player said she liked the Milestone process, but was open to trying the Experience model. Both of the min-maxer, game-focused players said they preferred the Milestone model. The player-turned-DM expressed relief, because he had been wanting to do Milestone anyway.
I recommend you at least give Milestone leveling a shot. You mentioned that you feel that story-based Milestone is less work. Give it a shot. As someone who's done both, the easy one is definitely Experience. You don't have to think, you don't have to keep track. You don't have to do any extra work with the Experience model. Which is a positive, if time constraints are an issue. If a DM is picking story-based Milestones because they think it'll be less work, they won't be using it for very long.
And maybe that's the disconnect here, if that's the experience you've had as a player in such a campaign.
You also make the assumption that we never tryed it. But i played 2 years with milestones and it led to a lot of problems. My players never wanted to play xp. Because of bad experiences with it. But i think there are a lot of advantages to playing xp instead of milestone. Now were playing xp. And they absolutely love it. Because i do it right.
My guess if i had to say based on everyones view... It is that badly managed xp ruins the gaming experience. And i also think like the post above... I think most of you pick milestone for 2 simple reasons...
1) its easier, no need for any calculation.
2) no favoritism which you probably fear your players complaining that this and that player received more. Thus the need for everyone to be the same level at all times.
But all these reasons have major concerns. The first being... Is it so hard to calculate xp to begin with ? I believe people wonder too much about it. Looking at adventurer league xp based system... It works and it is story based.
The second problem comes up if you have players splitting the party. Why would some players level up if they dont follow or flee while the rest did their thing ? What if a player misses a game ? Does he level up out of nowhere without any reasons ?
In the end by using milestones you are driving the story and literally forcing the players into your story. The fact most dms never split party or do everything to make the group go for the story is pretty darn rail roading.
An open world is more importantly not design with players in mind. Meaning that if the players do nothing at all. The world will live through its own cycles. And if players interfere... The world just adjust itself. Premade stories are a great exemple of it. They seem to be great and open world but they are not. There is nothing if the players decide to back to neverwinter and call reinforcement. There is nothing if the players decide to go outside the map. Where as an open wod already has most of the world mapped out and easy to follow players wherever they go.
Back to xp and milestones. In a true open world and not an illusion of will sandbox. Milestones makes no sense since the story will never end in itself. While in pseudo sandbox. There is an ending planned and thus its easy to break the story down.
I like matt colville videos of running the game. He has a great view of rail road versus sandbox and his vision as a game designer, who actually live by doing stories. Is that a story is the inverse of open world. In a story you are forcing concepts and roads onto your players. While open world just let the players be their own stories ! And i believe its that difference that makes players love or hate xp.
All that to say... In true open world settings where you let the players be their own story. Milestone can work as long as you are willing to change your milestones or have them at numerous places. While in stories about the world and trying to force players into heroes... Your milestones have the advantage of staying all at the same places because you know players will get there. In the end milestones are probably as troublesome to calculate as xp is.
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There's an obstinacy on your part to keep making reference to "Milestone leveling" even though that can apply to three separate techniques.
And there's an sneering implied assumption here that I'm not speaking from experience, especially with statements like "I recommend you at least give Milestone leveling a shot", and "Give it a shot".
As a DM, I've done all forms of advancement. I've done straight XP, I've done standardized XP blocks for encounters and game play rewards as "Milestones" ( this is, in fact, the technique I'm using now ), I've done Story Based Advancement, and I've done Session Based Advancement.
"You don't have to think", "You don't have to keep track"? I don't know whatkind of Experience tracking you're talking about, then. You're not doing encounter design with XP budgets? You're not tracking Player ideas and behavior, giving out XP bonuses for Player cleverness, good tactics, and character development? You're not adapting adventures on the fly to keep the challenge up when Characters level up? Sure - I guess the experience model is easier if all you're doing is running someone else's published modules and reading off the XP rewards on the page, or you're only giving out combat XP and are just reading the standard XP off the monsters stat block - and you're pushing all the tracking onto your Players. I guess XP can be dead simple if you do it badly. I'm beginning to suspect that if people are pushing the XP tracking to their Players, of course Players have an preference to move to Milestones: "want to do part of my job for me, or we can move to an alternative where neither of us needs to do the work?" :p
I've "Give[n] it a shot". I've given it all shots. I've talked to Players - both mine, and others. I've talked to other DMs, here and on other forums, and in private chats, and at gaming stores. I've read articles on advancement techniques and mechanics. I've heard people try and defend Story Based Advancement, and Session Based Advancement - and I have never heard an argument as to how it is supposed to lead to a better story, or a better Player experience. I've heard a lot of how it's a benefit to the DM. I've heard about how it must lead to a better story, since it's "story focused". I've never seen one person able to answer why or how.
Even your posts - I've heard how it's been "generally preferred", but not one iota of how it leads to a better game, or story experience.
I'm not talking blue sky speculation here - these are my conclusions from all that.
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Seeing how my last 4 DnD groups desintegrated and fell apart because of real life issues/priorities with long hiatus, I'm thank full that you gain levels quicked then before, else i would never have a character that goes beyond lvl6.
Heck the longest i've been with a group( 2 years) and we managed to get to lvl 13, before the group quited DnD completly to play Call of Cthullu or other stuffs.
Years i've been playing DnD and i've never been further then lvl13 with a character.
So thanks the Gods that you don't require 5 years to run a game anymore and that you reach lvl10 after a few sessions...
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"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
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You’ll have to forgive me, multiple, separated quotes always break for me here, but hopefully I’ll make it clear who I’m responding to.
DnDPaladin said:
You also make the assumption that we never tryed it. But i played 2 years with milestones and it led to a lot of problems.
Vedexent said:
And there's an sneering implied assumption here that I'm not speaking from experience, especially with statements like "I recommend you at least give Milestone leveling a shot", and "Give it a shot".
As a DM, I've done all forms of advancement. I've done straight XP, I've done standardized XP blocks for encounters and game play rewards as "Milestones" ( this is, in fact, the technique I'm using now ), I've done Story Based Advancement, and I've done Session Based Advancement.
If I made an incorrect assumption here, I am sorry. The responses given implied that you hadn’t, but perhaps you stated otherwise in the previous 7 pages. In either case, I’m sorry for assuming.
Vedexent said:
There's an obstinacy on your part to keep making reference to "Milestone leveling" even though that can apply to three separate techniques.
I’m assuming you mean session-based milestones that you mention below? I’m not sure why you’re calling me out on this, to be honest, since you’ve been doing the same. But, to be clear from here on out, my discussion on Milestone leveling is specific to story-based Milestones.
Vedexent said:
"You don't have to think", "You don't have to keep track"? I don't know what kind of Experience tracking you're talking about, then. You're not doing encounter design with XP budgets? You're not tracking Player ideas and behavior, giving out XP bonuses for Player cleverness, good tactics, and character development? You're not adapting adventures on the fly to keep the challenge up when Characters level up? Sure - I guess the experience model is easier if all you're doing is running someone else's published modules and reading off the XP rewards on the page, or you're only giving out combat XP and are just reading the standard XP off the monsters stat block - and you're pushing all the tracking onto your Players. I guess XP can be dead simple if you do it badly. I'm beginning to suspect that if people are pushing the XP tracking to their Players, of course Players have an preference to move to Milestones: "want to do part of my job for me, or we can move to an alternative where neither of us needs to do the work?" :p
I’m assuming that you feel that I was not taking into account all of those things? Well, no, all those things were included when I said that I felt XP tracking was easier than Milestone tracking. You have something definitive and absolute, a numerical value being compared against a separate numerical value, versus something intangible, how the group feels about their progression and development against their accomplishments within the game. Comparatively, calculating and tracking XP is easy. Assuming a good DM, both models can reward players for active participation or exceptional play. Both models can even support well thought-out rewards that encourage and progress the narrative, but the XP model could also just be XP. Between the two types of rewards, narrative rewards vs XP rewards, the latter is the easiest to think up, provide and keep track of.
Vedexent said:
I've heard people try and defend Story Based Advancement, and Session Based Advancement - and I have never heard an argument as to how it is supposed to lead to a better story, or a better Player experience. I've heard a lot of how it's a benefit to the DM. I've heard about how it must lead to a better story, since it's "story focused". I've never seen one person able to answer why or how.
Even your posts - I've heard how it's been "generally preferred", but not one iota of how it leads to a better game, or story experience.
I'm not talking blue sky speculation here - these are my conclusions from all that.
Well, to be fair, I mostly just wanted to address the fact that Milestone leveling was being judged because of how a poor DM would utilize it rather than its own merits. But, to answer your question, what I have experienced myself is that:
XP tends to replace the narrative. It’s a fully mechanical crunchy aspect of the game, and time spent on it is time not spent on the game’s narrative. I’ve been in games where a third of a session was dedicated to discussions and even debates over XP. That’s an extreme and certainly not a universal experience, but it is something I’ve seen only under an XP-based model.
I’ve seen players attempt to “game” the system over the XP model, and been tempted to do so myself. When you know that you’re only, say, 50 XP away from a new level, and you know what sort of things the DM rewards additional XP for, players can be tempted to act outside of what they would have otherwise behaved to tick whatever box they need to seal the deal before the session’s over. It comes across as dishonest roleplay and not something I enjoy as a player or want to encourage as a DM. You’re not giving a Braveheart speech in front of an army because your character would do so, or because you’re so enthralled with the game and been inspired to go above and beyond, you just want that mechanical bump. Again, far from universal, but it’s not something I can see replicated in the Milestone model.
Both of those prior examples can be mitigated by a DM keeping track of XP separately, but I’ve never seen a game myself where a DM who tries to do that isn’t eventually browbeaten into letting players also track XP. It’s a progress bar slowly being filled, and players seem to want to be able to see it.
With Milestone leveling, without XP being a factor, I’m compelled to reward the players differently. A warlock who displays character growth may please their patron, who bequeaths upon them a boon. A rogue who breaks ties with a criminal organization, displaying character growth, will trigger a new narrative overlapping the metaplot. Regardless of model, good player behavior should be rewarded, and both models can reward in this particular manner. However, the Milestone method removes XP from the equation altogether, and I can’t take the easy path of an XP bump.
DnDPaladin said:
But all these reasons have major concerns. The first being... Is it so hard to calculate xp to begin with ? I believe people wonder too much about it. Looking at adventurer league xp based system... It works and it is story based.
The second problem comes up if you have players splitting the party. Why would some players level up if they dont follow or flee while the rest did their thing ? What if a player misses a game ? Does he level up out of nowhere without any reasons ?
To respond to the first concern, no, it’s really not hard at all. For your second concern, I’d consider it a trait of a good DM to keep both halves of the party active and engaged. Having one half exceed the efforts of the other half would only really be possible if under the direction of an inexperienced or overwhelmed DM.
This is actually applicable to my most recently DMed session, as the party had divided their efforts to locate and speak with potential allies located within an otherwise antagonistic war camp. One player attempted to confront the camp alone by openly approaching an element of the camp culturally similar to her own people. The remainder of the party were taking a stealthier approach, using a combination of Druidic spells.
If I had followed my original plans, it very likely could have led to a TPK. But it was inventive, it was interesting, and it seemed like it would be fun. Yes, it could have led to a TPK, but not because they made a bad or stupid decision, because they didn't have the full picture. So I modified what I had planned in the face of Player ingenuity. A bloodthirsty tribe of barbarians became drunken nihilists celebrating their last days on earth, for example. I rearranged the layout to give the party a chance to link back up if they so choose, and the session ended right at that moment where they do link back up.
While separated, both teams were active and engaged with what was going on, they were both contributing to the game in a meaningful way. In my opinion, a DM should be doing that regardless of which progression model they use.
As for a player missing a game, that happens. We all have lives beyond D&D, and sometimes we can’t make every game. There's no reason to punish the player for that. Assuming the character doesn’t just disappear whenever the player is absent, then it would also not make sense to hold it back.
DnDPaladin said:
In the end by using milestones you are driving the story and literally forcing the players into your story. The fact most dms never split party or do everything to make the group go for the story is pretty darn rail roading.
[…]
Back to xp and milestones. In a true open world and not an illusion of will sandbox. Milestones makes no sense since the story will never end in itself. While in pseudo sandbox. There is an ending planned and thus its easy to break the story down.
This seems to be based off an issue with a "bad" DM than the Milestone method itself. The Milestone method does not require a story that ends. It’s called the Milestone method for a reason, it’s not about what’s at the end, it’s about steps along the path.
As you say later on, Open World settings let players be their own stories, and that’s true. They create their path behind them, rather than follow what the DM has set before them. Regardless of which path the players are on, their own or the DM’s, there can be Milestones along it. Milestones are not defined by what comes later on the path but what came before it.
DnDPaladin said:
Milestone can work as long as you are willing to change your milestones or have them at numerous places. While in stories about the world and trying to force players into heroes... Your milestones have the advantage of staying all at the same places because you know players will get there. In the end milestones are probably as troublesome to calculate as xp is.
This can be true, but also, Milestones don’t have to be predetermined. They don’t have to be set anywhere. Milestones can be in response, or reactive, to player activity and decisions. Say, the session has been concluded, or they are in a Long Rest (if the DM levels during Long Rests). The DM has been keeping track of what’s occurred, obviously. They’re fully aware of what the players have accomplished, or what they have set in motion. The Milestone DM should also be aware of the general mindset of the players, how they feel they’ve progressed or be on the lookout for signs that they're . If the DM takes everything into consideration and deems what has occurred to be worthy of note, a milestone achievement, then they can announce that it is time to level up the party.
Personally, I think it’s better to have both set Milestones and to be receptive of the opportunity for reactive Milestones. I have a metaplot my players are currently following. It’s a series of quests and events that they could participate in or not. If they choose not to, then the metaplot will continue without them. Either decision they make will have an impact on the world, whether globally or locally only. Within the metaplot, I have predetermined Milestones. However, as the players make their own decisions and carve their own path through my setting, I try to keep myself receptive to unplanned, potential Milestones.
I don’t feel that the XP model is wrong, I still enjoy it greatly. I don’t feel that the Milestone model is better, just something I have had more fun with. My main concern was that it was starting to sound more like a Good DM with the XP model vs Bad DM with the Milestone model debate, rather than approaching both sides with the assumption that the DM is doing a good job.
I do apologize for making an incorrect assumption on whether you’ve tried the Milestone method, though I do stand by my opinion on the Milestone method’s merits. Hopefully I’ve clarified that, but regardless I’ll step away from the conversation.
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Have you talked with them about why they aren't using Inspiration?
I've also found that difficulty with Inspiration & similar mechanics from other systems (i.e "Hero Points") before. When I ask a player (whether I'm DM or another player) why they don't ever use the bonus they've been given, the answer is almost always, "I don't know when or if I'll ever be rewarded with [insert named resource] again, so I'm saving it for a life-or-death situation".
If you explain to your players the generalized "rate" at which you intend to reward resources for good RP/behavior, they'll use 'em. Otherwise, yeah, more players are likely going to just sit on the resource until they absolutely need to cash it in to survive something.
I don't see how that's tricky in the slightest. Everything a player does is carried out by their character. In the literal sense, because RP, but also figuratively. Have a player on their phone all session, not paying attention to anything past their own character? Well, their character was spaced out all session too, so they were not able to earn the same amount of "lived" experience as the rest of the table.
If a player comes up with a creative solution to a problem that their character can't solve, coordinates with another player/character to accomplish, and RPs the scene between characters, then it's not just something the player did. For all intents and purposes, their character came up with the idea. If the player just tells other players what to do, that's meta-gaming, and nobody should be getting rewarded for that anyway.
That's an option of how to use milestones; The very last one, actually. Milestones can be defined in any way that you feel appropriate for your campaigns. In the end, it all amounts to the same thing.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
This is how it's "tricky in the slightest":
I currently have a small XP bonus for "clever thinking" - combat tactics, clever conversational gambits, interesting ways around obstacles, and the like.
This is because I want to encourage/reward the Players towards creative thinking and interesting solutions.
If I decided to phase out XP rewards ( because I'm moving to milestones ), and instead reward them with "things like minor boons, land ownership, NPC contacts, discounts on certain item(s), greater resources, etc.", how does that work? The Party is by themselves, in a Dungeon, and one of the Players has a personal insight which allows them to bypass the "dwarven gates" ... and suddenly they are rewarded with a land title? Such rewards need in story justification. Either I have to build rewards into the scene, even if they don't make Narrative sense, for the meta-gaming reason that I want to encourage the behavior ( plus, I have to retain an option to withhold the benefit if they don't use a "clever solution", which still makes sense to the Narrative ), or abandon the idea of behavior reward.
It's far far easier to have a default XP bonus to toss at a Player which comes up with a clever solution, or not if they don't come up with a creative way around the problem.
With a generous enough interpretation, what I'm doing IS milestone leveling, I'm just making a conversion of a "milestone" to an equivalent amount of XP
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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EXP leveling just is milestone leveling--you just have thousands of tiny little milestones :P
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Heres my views on CR type gaming and i agree with many of you...
CR is heavily focused on stories. The numbers of players who want that are very limited. Most players wants "their" stories. On CR they are professionnals. Look at travis and how patient he is on CR with grog. Thats the level of patience most players arent even close to get to. Thats the major difference between most tables and CR.
Now at my table. I cannot ryn linear stories. My players want their stories and will not care for what i do unless it involves their backgrounds. I tryed many a premade adventure on them and most of them do not follow and some of them starts to wonder how they can screw the story up to make it more interesting. So i have no choice with them. Its open world. I have a few plot lines and if the players want to get involved then fine !
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Milestone isn't strictly dependant on a main story. Some campaigns don't even have one. Milestone just means the pc's level up when any kind of significant milestone happens, whether personal, physical, story, or skill based, at the DM's discretion. It's literally just when the party reaches a milestone that the DM deems significant enough. They can even change what that means on the fly depending on the kind of choices the players make. Like, if the players ignore the main story and therefore won't level up after killing the evil necromancer you had planned, maybe fighting the dragon that was terrorizing the village they were protecting from orcs will do it it's it's a particularly white-knuckle fight.
And if you don't like that players level too quick then milestone is your friend there too, since the levels are literally just up to you, the DM, rather than dependent on exp grinds.
Except that milestones makes the players unable to see developments and thus often feel behind. So it becomes up to the dm to give them the morale check to make sure they dont feel like nothing is being done. While with experience the player can directly see the results of their advancement and thus they can boost their own morales as they can see their next level coming even though the story isnt completed.
Playing milestones in campaign 1. I was expecting them to be level 15 at the end and after a bunch of stuff happened they still have been level 6. Because they literally skipped everything. While in campaign 2. They started level 1 and are now level 4 and they always talk to me about how they cant wait for the next level and it even makes them want to go further in the story and stop fleeing everything.
Overall my own experience is... Experience is better as it gives the player a ressource to manage that will give them a sense of advancement. While milestone is literally in the hand of the dm and the players feel left behind if they dont see advancement.
A good exemple is adventurers league and its xp rewards.
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This could be a case of "gaming tables are different". From my perspective there is a lot more going on in a story to "get things done" than just an arbitrary character level. Did the players rescue or not rescue an NPC? Are they now wanted by nearby towns or local heroes? Have they drawn attention from greater powers that now threaten them? Are thieves now after them, knowing that they have stolen a dragon's hoard?
I agree that XP gives you an "mmo effect" like an experience bar, if that's the experience you want in your game then go for it. I like a more open sandbox where the world changes based on the characters' actions and as they influence the world more, they go up in level. It's not a "kill a black dragon" you earned a milestone level, it's more like did we complete a story whether it was "plotted" or not, and how did that affect the game world?
"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
( my emphasis above )
You're absolutely correct that there are other means of demonstrating progress to the Players, but you're implying a false dichotomy here. This isn't an "MMO feel" vs. having a "story base impact of the world" choice - you can have both.
Let's take a step back here and clarify what we're talking about: Are we talking about Milestones, Session Based Advancement, Story Based Advancement, or "... s%#$, I haven't leveled them up in forever, so everyone levels up!"? We seem to be using them all interchangeably.
If we're talking about Milestones as per the DMG, then what we're describing is not doing precise XP calculations, but figuring XP in "chunks" of a predetermined size: they're level 3, that was a Deadly level combat, they get 300XP. This I like. I don't have to do precise XP calculations down to the single XP point, and I can still dole out XP rewards for certain behaviors I want to encourage: "that was a clever idea! You get 1/2 an Easy Encounter in bonus XP ( 40XP @ level 3 )". I can also attach "chunks" of XP to ( potential ) events in the story: they rescue the monster from the evil princess, they get 500 XP. You see that in published module design.
If we're talking about Session Based Advancement, we're talking about leveling up the Party automatically after a predetermined number of game sessions; 2-3 for most levels. This I hate. What's a "session"? You do 6 hour Saturday afternoon sessions, where your Players are wading through seas of Monster blood, while I do 3 hours Wednesday nights, where my Players sit around haggling with merchants to get a 10% discount on that long sword, and both Parties are supposed to level up after 3 Sessions? Sarah is fully engaged with her Character, making choices based on Character knowledge, thinking tactically, creatively solving problems, and helping her teammates; Frank is dozing off in the corner on his phone, checking Facebook periodically - these Players both advance at the same rate?
If we're talking about Story Based Advancement, we're talking about leveling up the Party when they reach a "significant story event". This I think has great promise in theory; fails in Practice. Players never make a beeline for the story point we think will happen next. They wander over here; they wander over there; they bypass story elements we thought they'd interact with; they almost never get to a given point in the story when we think they would. No problem, we'll just dole out a level when we as DMs judge they've made "significant progress"? Yeah ... that tends to be semi-arbitrary, and as a Player, I have no visibility to how I'm doing, or how I'm progressing. Yeah, I can see we have had a impact on the world around us: was that "significant" yet, DM? This approach has a really arbitrary feel ( because, face it, it is arbitrary - relying on DM "gut feel" ), and takes away the Players' sense of concrete progress. If your campaign could run on rails, then this wouldn't be a bad approach at all. As it is - that pesky Player free will often makes this approach either untenable, or collapses it into purely arbitrary and "gut feel" leveling of the Party. Which leads up to ...
"s%#$, I haven't leveled them up in forever, so everyone levels up!" - which is just an out-and-out failing of a lazy DM. Unfortunately, I think there's a pretty severe chance of Story Based Advancement, collapsing into this. Players have no sense of how they're progressing ( are those world changes "significant" yet? ), and if there's any consistency in Party leveling, it's probably accidental.
XP and Milestones as written in the DMG are actually pretty robust - and they're really just variants of each other, with Milestones being easier book-keeping on the DMs part. That's the system I've pretty much settled on.
I have yet to see a solid concrete argument as to why Session Based Advancement, or Story Based Advancement are better, only that they're easier for the DM, and my personal opinion on the matter is that that ease comes at a cost of consistency and transparency of progress for the Players.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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It is indeed up to the DM to give players the "moral" check when using milestone leveling. However... How can players get the feeling they aren't achieving anything? They're constantly doing something, making decisions and such that lead to clashes with whatever else is going on in the world. Whatever the PC's do leads to some sort of impact on their direct environment. Not even mentioning the subtle things happening behind the screen that can come back at a later point. My players have cleared a citadel in which they made decisions that had a direct impact on the local township, but tied in with a later development of being a pain in the ass to some huge army/evil. Later villages they got boons and other things. If your players are so reliant on seeing some bar fill up with xp or else they can't see advancement and be engaged/motivated enough to keep going....well... **** them, if they were my players. However in case of lacking engagement....that is a DM's fault and needs to be solved. Got people dozing off onto social media instead of playing. You're failing as a DM to keep that player engaged.
You don't have to build in weird reasons to grant land ownership and such. Once again it comes down to having a talk with the players before even starting the campaign. Talk about elements you will include. For example I mentioned that once Matt Colville's Stronghold & Followers would release.. I'd incorporate elements of that in the game we play. Meaning more clear rules for land ownership and development, keeps etc. Which sparked my players to talk about possibilities. Listening to them talk it sparked ideas for events/quests/stories for me to throw at them. When they encountered a casino one of them wanted to buy it up, which of course can't be done that easily..especially not at lvl 3 with only a few 100 gold coins to their name. Thus leading to its own set of quests. Have a ruined keep somewhere that involves its own set of events. Depending on how the PC's reputation with the locals/lords is they might be able to buy or earn the right to the Keep...maybe even get a title and thus be allowed to get taxes from the local village(s) nearby etc. Which then leads to its own set of events. Which in turn can lead to engaging and interesting "down time activities" that prolong the real time played. Which this thread is about. its not about milestone leveling.
Witht he descriptions above... guess I'm aching more towards "story based" milestones, but not strictly. I got a main red thread, framework, at the start of a campaign. In which I roughly know when my players would become lvl 1 through 12. However during play the players do a lot of unexpected things. They can deal with other situations, create different clashes that have to be dealt with etc. Meaning they're going "off track". I just adjust the moments of the milestone accordingly along the way. Meaning the original lvl 12 milestone eventually ends up being a lvl20 milestone due to lots of stuff happening/changing as per player influence. And yes at the start my players did ask "when do we level up" and my answer was "when I tell you to". Or if I knew they were close to something major "soon". However after all this time their mindset has changed. They don't worry about xp, they trust the DM, and they focus on the events in the game itself. In life progress doesn't come planned and at a predictable pace. You have moments where you bust your ass and barely make progress. While another time you make fast progress in quick succession. That's what happened often enough when I still did powerlifting at european level competition. So what if the "milestones" seem somewhat irregular.
For the point made towards party wide leveling up, even though some PC's might not have contributed as much as another. I just take the easy way out. If I were to use XP my players would level up so damn fast. They could easily gain twice as many levels. Meaning that if a player can't make it to a session or two... Overall they could still have enough contribution overall to warrant a level up alongside the others. Especially with the point that not everyone, always, progresses at the same pace in reality either. So it might just be the case that at another point in the time another player might miss 1 or 2 sessions. It all evens out in the end. However this is pure speculation since my players haven't missed a single session yet.
Giving players rewards for what their characters do, or meta rewards to promote certain behavior... I'm not a fan of those at all. I don't use Inspiration since its nonsensical. Got trouble roleplaying your character then I rather use other ways to include the player. Get them to talk from a first person perspective for starters and go from there. They come up with something creative and weird I'll just give them a modifier in some way, which they don't know about. Instead of handing out Inspiration to use whenever they feel like it. Slowing stuff down with yet another die to roll. If they even remember that they got it. How many if your players would be willing to own up to something that has their PC, willingly, put their heads on the chopping block for a chance of insta-death?
I came to the same conclusion after 4 years of testing milestones abusively.
Let me add that for someone using a premade adventure and players follow it closely the milestones are pretty real. But thats only if all players are willing to follow the said adventure as is.
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Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
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That sounds like a lot of self justification to just avoid math - and the tried and true "if you can't make it work my way, you must be doing it wrong - or it's a bad Player" thrown in for good measure is a nice touch.
It's your game. Do what you will. If you want to make a railroad framework, attach major milestones to it, and either ram your Players down your framework, or, as you say, move your Milestones around to where you think it's "significant" - which now keeps you Players in the dark about when they will be leveling up and not whether they are affecting the world ( let's not change the focus ) - that's up to you.
If you want to strip out immediate psychologically significant Player rewards for good tactical thinking, and Player development, and attach them psychologically nebulously down the road to some in-story reward - that's again, totally up to you. I think it flies in the face of a century of educational, institutional, and industrial psychological theory, but it's your table. If you want to give them secret rewards ( now that's a new one by me! ) - "give them a modifier in some way, which they don't know about" - so you can tell yourself they've been rewarded, but they neither know that they've been rewarded, or why - well, to me that's weird, but OK, have at it.
I can kind of see not liking the idea of "shaping" Player behavior - that does feel kind of manipulative - but I think you should take a hard look at video game design ( where that sort of thing is rampant ), or your own workplace. It also - pretty undeniably - works. That's just how humans are wired. Don't believe me? Look at workplace and productivity bonuses, and tell me no one pays attention to them.
If you're terrified of the Players leveling up fast, but you aren't going to put in the minimal effort to tune the XP rewards down ( let's divide by 2 everyone! ) to match a leveling rate that suits your game ... I can't help you. If you've never heard of an old DM tactic of giving absent Player's Characters "sympathy XP" to keep them matched to the lowest XP member in the group - well, now you have. If you want to give every Player the exact same reward all the time, regardless of effort or engagement - up to you, but I think you've lost any right to complain about any Player's level of effort in the future; you've literally communicated all they have to do is show up.
I think you sum up very nicely every justification I've ever heard - or used myself, I'm no saint! - for Session Based Advancement or Story Based Advancement: "I just take the easy way out". I won't adjust my XP rewards from RAW; I won't track what my Players are doing; I won't take the effort to reward good play in a clear, consistent, and unambiguous way; I won't redesign my adventure on the fly to keep it relevant and challenging because Bob just leveled up and took water breathing and made my pre-planned scene trivial ( it's easier to just shift that milestone after this encounter so he can't ); I won't keep reward consistent and proportional to effort and contribution; I won't make the effort as a DM to run clear, concise, and consistent leveling mechanics: "I just take the easy way out".
Ultimately, It's your game. Do what you will. If it works for your table, then it works for your table. Just be sure it works for your table, and not just you. Just make sure you're not screwing your Players by making game rewards ( and yes, it's a game as well as a story ) arbitrary, inconsistent, and confusing, because you don't want to put in the effort to make a fair and consistent game reward system.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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ModeratorEverybody is going to run the game differently, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone preferring the Experience model over the Milestone. There's been valid criticism given for Milestone leveling that I can understand and relate to, though they have not been factors in my own games, either as DM or a player.
But I do feel that there's a disservice being done on the part of story-based Milestones, and the idea that it cannot be used in open-world narratives. It comes across to me that there is an assumption that the DM will not be able to effectively gauge the group's progress outside of their own predetermined plot, therefore basing a criticism on Milestone leveling on an entirely unrelated failure of the DM.
Both Milestone and Experience models can be improperly used and fail to hit the mark when in the hands of an inexperienced or just plain bad DM. That shouldn't be used as a cause for criticism for either model.
In my personal experience, story-based Milestones has worked for me as both DM and player. Not once have I ever seen, heard or felt myself any of the issues raised against it, and we are a very communicative group. I've never felt underleveled, never felt like I couldn't see my own progress, I've felt plenty rewarded for out of the box thinking and roleplay. It's different yes, I see my progress in my character's development or the impact I've had on the setting and NPCs, rather than seeing a numerical value slowly increasing.
I enjoy this model, because it has made the balance between game and narrative more lean toward the narrative. The crunch of Experience takes a backseat to the fluff of Milestone. It's not everyone, and it's not perfect. It's certainly harder, the DM has to be more aware and intuitive, it's not as easy as just the Experience model. If you, as the DM, are often pressed for time, then maybe the Experience model is best for you, as it takes less effort. There's no singular choice here that is correct, both are good choices, table depending.
I think it's a matter of the flavor of the group, or rather of the individual Players.
D&D is a role-playing game.
For Players whose focus is the role playing, properly executed Story Based Advancement ( which I'm going to use instead of Story Based Milestones, so-as not to confuse it with chunked-XP activity based Milestones) works well enough, if executed reasonably. And I have no issues with that, what-so-ever. I would hazard a guess, Conn_Eremon, that you're pretty story focused? Which is a great approach, and a table of story oriented Players is awesome for a DM to helm.
For Players who are more game focused, Story Based Advancement has the aforementioned issues. Can you picture playing a video game like Fallout 4, where you made progress in the quests, but had no clue when you were going to level up? Surprise! Seemingly random level up! It might actually work OK - but I can imagine there being a lot of very irate game reviews complaining about that aspect of the design.
The problem is, that no group is made of just one kind of Player - or at least that's rare.
If I use XP, or even "chunked XP milestones" (which is, IMO, a far superior system as it is simpler bookkeeping, while keeping a consistent mechanic ), my role play focused Players really don't care - especially if I'm putting XP milestones in for major plot accomplishments, so they get a sense of achievement for major plot developments. And especially if I'm doing the book-keeping for them.
If I use Story Based Advancement, my game focused Players do care, for the reasons stated above. They can't see their progress, they don't know they are being rewarded consistently, and the whole leveling mechanic feels flaky ( which it is ).
If you have a group entirely composed of character actors, totally focused on the story, and Character development, there's absolutely no reason not to adapt Story Based Advancement. The moment you get a "crunchy" tactical Player in the mix, you're probably short-changing them.
And I fully admit that I have a totally cynical belief that most ( but not all ) DMs don't adopt Story Based Advancement because it's better, or story focused, or conducive to a good Narrative - but because it's less work.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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ModeratorThere's an assumption here that story-focused players and game-focused players don't overlap, that a mixed group will have mixed responses. My group has two game-focused players. Both are min-maxers, who build their characters from the mechanical viewpoint first. I also have a player who builds his character solely from a narrative viewpoint, the mechanical viewpoint never once factoring in. The fourth player is very new to D&D, and is still feeling around for where her style is. I build my characters from a narrative viewpoint, but do factor in the mechanics of it.
I have a mixed group, but I do not have mixed responses. My game came first, I selected Milestone leveling purely with the intent to just try it out. I had no prior disposition or bias one way or another, it was just "something new." One of those players started a second game that he DMs, and he asked the group whether we wanted to do the Milestone or the Experience model. I abstained, because I thought it'd be a good chance to hear some feedback. The new player said she liked the Milestone process, but was open to trying the Experience model. Both of the min-maxer, game-focused players said they preferred the Milestone model. The player-turned-DM expressed relief, because he had been wanting to do Milestone anyway.
I recommend you at least give Milestone leveling a shot. You mentioned that you feel that story-based Milestone is less work. Give it a shot. As someone who's done both, the easy one is definitely Experience. You don't have to think, you don't have to keep track. You don't have to do any extra work with the Experience model. Which is a positive, if time constraints are an issue. If a DM is picking story-based Milestones because they think it'll be less work, they won't be using it for very long.
And maybe that's the disconnect here, if that's the experience you've had as a player in such a campaign.
You also make the assumption that we never tryed it. But i played 2 years with milestones and it led to a lot of problems. My players never wanted to play xp. Because of bad experiences with it. But i think there are a lot of advantages to playing xp instead of milestone. Now were playing xp. And they absolutely love it. Because i do it right.
My guess if i had to say based on everyones view... It is that badly managed xp ruins the gaming experience. And i also think like the post above... I think most of you pick milestone for 2 simple reasons...
1) its easier, no need for any calculation.
2) no favoritism which you probably fear your players complaining that this and that player received more. Thus the need for everyone to be the same level at all times.
But all these reasons have major concerns. The first being... Is it so hard to calculate xp to begin with ? I believe people wonder too much about it. Looking at adventurer league xp based system... It works and it is story based.
The second problem comes up if you have players splitting the party. Why would some players level up if they dont follow or flee while the rest did their thing ? What if a player misses a game ? Does he level up out of nowhere without any reasons ?
In the end by using milestones you are driving the story and literally forcing the players into your story. The fact most dms never split party or do everything to make the group go for the story is pretty darn rail roading.
An open world is more importantly not design with players in mind. Meaning that if the players do nothing at all. The world will live through its own cycles. And if players interfere... The world just adjust itself. Premade stories are a great exemple of it. They seem to be great and open world but they are not. There is nothing if the players decide to back to neverwinter and call reinforcement. There is nothing if the players decide to go outside the map. Where as an open wod already has most of the world mapped out and easy to follow players wherever they go.
Back to xp and milestones. In a true open world and not an illusion of will sandbox. Milestones makes no sense since the story will never end in itself. While in pseudo sandbox. There is an ending planned and thus its easy to break the story down.
I like matt colville videos of running the game. He has a great view of rail road versus sandbox and his vision as a game designer, who actually live by doing stories. Is that a story is the inverse of open world. In a story you are forcing concepts and roads onto your players. While open world just let the players be their own stories ! And i believe its that difference that makes players love or hate xp.
All that to say... In true open world settings where you let the players be their own story. Milestone can work as long as you are willing to change your milestones or have them at numerous places. While in stories about the world and trying to force players into heroes... Your milestones have the advantage of staying all at the same places because you know players will get there. In the end milestones are probably as troublesome to calculate as xp is.
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There's an obstinacy on your part to keep making reference to "Milestone leveling" even though that can apply to three separate techniques.
And there's an sneering implied assumption here that I'm not speaking from experience, especially with statements like "I recommend you at least give Milestone leveling a shot", and "Give it a shot".
As a DM, I've done all forms of advancement. I've done straight XP, I've done standardized XP blocks for encounters and game play rewards as "Milestones" ( this is, in fact, the technique I'm using now ), I've done Story Based Advancement, and I've done Session Based Advancement.
"You don't have to think", "You don't have to keep track"? I don't know what kind of Experience tracking you're talking about, then. You're not doing encounter design with XP budgets? You're not tracking Player ideas and behavior, giving out XP bonuses for Player cleverness, good tactics, and character development? You're not adapting adventures on the fly to keep the challenge up when Characters level up? Sure - I guess the experience model is easier if all you're doing is running someone else's published modules and reading off the XP rewards on the page, or you're only giving out combat XP and are just reading the standard XP off the monsters stat block - and you're pushing all the tracking onto your Players. I guess XP can be dead simple if you do it badly. I'm beginning to suspect that if people are pushing the XP tracking to their Players, of course Players have an preference to move to Milestones: "want to do part of my job for me, or we can move to an alternative where neither of us needs to do the work?" :p
I've "Give[n] it a shot". I've given it all shots. I've talked to Players - both mine, and others. I've talked to other DMs, here and on other forums, and in private chats, and at gaming stores. I've read articles on advancement techniques and mechanics. I've heard people try and defend Story Based Advancement, and Session Based Advancement - and I have never heard an argument as to how it is supposed to lead to a better story, or a better Player experience. I've heard a lot of how it's a benefit to the DM. I've heard about how it must lead to a better story, since it's "story focused". I've never seen one person able to answer why or how.
Even your posts - I've heard how it's been "generally preferred", but not one iota of how it leads to a better game, or story experience.
I'm not talking blue sky speculation here - these are my conclusions from all that.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Seeing how my last 4 DnD groups desintegrated and fell apart because of real life issues/priorities with long hiatus, I'm thank full that you gain levels quicked then before, else i would never have a character that goes beyond lvl6.
Heck the longest i've been with a group( 2 years) and we managed to get to lvl 13, before the group quited DnD completly to play Call of Cthullu or other stuffs.
Years i've been playing DnD and i've never been further then lvl13 with a character.
So thanks the Gods that you don't require 5 years to run a game anymore and that you reach lvl10 after a few sessions...
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
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Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
I don't think the rate of progression is tied to the leveling mechanism - since Giblix is stating that XP leveling goes up too fast for that group.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
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ModeratorYou’ll have to forgive me, multiple, separated quotes always break for me here, but hopefully I’ll make it clear who I’m responding to.
DnDPaladin said:
You also make the assumption that we never tryed it. But i played 2 years with milestones and it led to a lot of problems.
Vedexent said:
And there's an sneering implied assumption here that I'm not speaking from experience, especially with statements like "I recommend you at least give Milestone leveling a shot", and "Give it a shot".
As a DM, I've done all forms of advancement. I've done straight XP, I've done standardized XP blocks for encounters and game play rewards as "Milestones" ( this is, in fact, the technique I'm using now ), I've done Story Based Advancement, and I've done Session Based Advancement.
If I made an incorrect assumption here, I am sorry. The responses given implied that you hadn’t, but perhaps you stated otherwise in the previous 7 pages. In either case, I’m sorry for assuming.
Vedexent said:
There's an obstinacy on your part to keep making reference to "Milestone leveling" even though that can apply to three separate techniques.
I’m assuming you mean session-based milestones that you mention below? I’m not sure why you’re calling me out on this, to be honest, since you’ve been doing the same. But, to be clear from here on out, my discussion on Milestone leveling is specific to story-based Milestones.
Vedexent said:
"You don't have to think", "You don't have to keep track"? I don't know what kind of Experience tracking you're talking about, then. You're not doing encounter design with XP budgets? You're not tracking Player ideas and behavior, giving out XP bonuses for Player cleverness, good tactics, and character development? You're not adapting adventures on the fly to keep the challenge up when Characters level up? Sure - I guess the experience model is easier if all you're doing is running someone else's published modules and reading off the XP rewards on the page, or you're only giving out combat XP and are just reading the standard XP off the monsters stat block - and you're pushing all the tracking onto your Players. I guess XP can be dead simple if you do it badly. I'm beginning to suspect that if people are pushing the XP tracking to their Players, of course Players have an preference to move to Milestones: "want to do part of my job for me, or we can move to an alternative where neither of us needs to do the work?" :p
I’m assuming that you feel that I was not taking into account all of those things? Well, no, all those things were included when I said that I felt XP tracking was easier than Milestone tracking. You have something definitive and absolute, a numerical value being compared against a separate numerical value, versus something intangible, how the group feels about their progression and development against their accomplishments within the game. Comparatively, calculating and tracking XP is easy. Assuming a good DM, both models can reward players for active participation or exceptional play. Both models can even support well thought-out rewards that encourage and progress the narrative, but the XP model could also just be XP. Between the two types of rewards, narrative rewards vs XP rewards, the latter is the easiest to think up, provide and keep track of.
Vedexent said:
I've heard people try and defend Story Based Advancement, and Session Based Advancement - and I have never heard an argument as to how it is supposed to lead to a better story, or a better Player experience. I've heard a lot of how it's a benefit to the DM. I've heard about how it must lead to a better story, since it's "story focused". I've never seen one person able to answer why or how.
Even your posts - I've heard how it's been "generally preferred", but not one iota of how it leads to a better game, or story experience.
I'm not talking blue sky speculation here - these are my conclusions from all that.
Well, to be fair, I mostly just wanted to address the fact that Milestone leveling was being judged because of how a poor DM would utilize it rather than its own merits. But, to answer your question, what I have experienced myself is that:
DnDPaladin said:
But all these reasons have major concerns. The first being... Is it so hard to calculate xp to begin with ? I believe people wonder too much about it. Looking at adventurer league xp based system... It works and it is story based.
The second problem comes up if you have players splitting the party. Why would some players level up if they dont follow or flee while the rest did their thing ? What if a player misses a game ? Does he level up out of nowhere without any reasons ?
To respond to the first concern, no, it’s really not hard at all. For your second concern, I’d consider it a trait of a good DM to keep both halves of the party active and engaged. Having one half exceed the efforts of the other half would only really be possible if under the direction of an inexperienced or overwhelmed DM.
This is actually applicable to my most recently DMed session, as the party had divided their efforts to locate and speak with potential allies located within an otherwise antagonistic war camp. One player attempted to confront the camp alone by openly approaching an element of the camp culturally similar to her own people. The remainder of the party were taking a stealthier approach, using a combination of Druidic spells.
If I had followed my original plans, it very likely could have led to a TPK. But it was inventive, it was interesting, and it seemed like it would be fun. Yes, it could have led to a TPK, but not because they made a bad or stupid decision, because they didn't have the full picture. So I modified what I had planned in the face of Player ingenuity. A bloodthirsty tribe of barbarians became drunken nihilists celebrating their last days on earth, for example. I rearranged the layout to give the party a chance to link back up if they so choose, and the session ended right at that moment where they do link back up.
While separated, both teams were active and engaged with what was going on, they were both contributing to the game in a meaningful way. In my opinion, a DM should be doing that regardless of which progression model they use.
As for a player missing a game, that happens. We all have lives beyond D&D, and sometimes we can’t make every game. There's no reason to punish the player for that. Assuming the character doesn’t just disappear whenever the player is absent, then it would also not make sense to hold it back.
DnDPaladin said:
In the end by using milestones you are driving the story and literally forcing the players into your story. The fact most dms never split party or do everything to make the group go for the story is pretty darn rail roading.
[…]
Back to xp and milestones. In a true open world and not an illusion of will sandbox. Milestones makes no sense since the story will never end in itself. While in pseudo sandbox. There is an ending planned and thus its easy to break the story down.
This seems to be based off an issue with a "bad" DM than the Milestone method itself. The Milestone method does not require a story that ends. It’s called the Milestone method for a reason, it’s not about what’s at the end, it’s about steps along the path.
As you say later on, Open World settings let players be their own stories, and that’s true. They create their path behind them, rather than follow what the DM has set before them. Regardless of which path the players are on, their own or the DM’s, there can be Milestones along it. Milestones are not defined by what comes later on the path but what came before it.
DnDPaladin said:
Milestone can work as long as you are willing to change your milestones or have them at numerous places. While in stories about the world and trying to force players into heroes... Your milestones have the advantage of staying all at the same places because you know players will get there. In the end milestones are probably as troublesome to calculate as xp is.
This can be true, but also, Milestones don’t have to be predetermined. They don’t have to be set anywhere. Milestones can be in response, or reactive, to player activity and decisions. Say, the session has been concluded, or they are in a Long Rest (if the DM levels during Long Rests). The DM has been keeping track of what’s occurred, obviously. They’re fully aware of what the players have accomplished, or what they have set in motion. The Milestone DM should also be aware of the general mindset of the players, how they feel they’ve progressed or be on the lookout for signs that they're . If the DM takes everything into consideration and deems what has occurred to be worthy of note, a milestone achievement, then they can announce that it is time to level up the party.
Personally, I think it’s better to have both set Milestones and to be receptive of the opportunity for reactive Milestones. I have a metaplot my players are currently following. It’s a series of quests and events that they could participate in or not. If they choose not to, then the metaplot will continue without them. Either decision they make will have an impact on the world, whether globally or locally only. Within the metaplot, I have predetermined Milestones. However, as the players make their own decisions and carve their own path through my setting, I try to keep myself receptive to unplanned, potential Milestones.
I don’t feel that the XP model is wrong, I still enjoy it greatly. I don’t feel that the Milestone model is better, just something I have had more fun with. My main concern was that it was starting to sound more like a Good DM with the XP model vs Bad DM with the Milestone model debate, rather than approaching both sides with the assumption that the DM is doing a good job.
I do apologize for making an incorrect assumption on whether you’ve tried the Milestone method, though I do stand by my opinion on the Milestone method’s merits. Hopefully I’ve clarified that, but regardless I’ll step away from the conversation.
https://theangrygm.com/how-to-xp-good/
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.