Well if you want too do sage's idea then you could go with a monster that copy's the body and mind of its target.
And if you can't find one like that, your the Dm. you can create one that does do that.
I remember in the first, and last, session of a game I ran. The duo of murderhoboswhere helping clear out a sort of ninja school, full of abaration shinobi, whom took over the place because of reasons.
The toughest foe that my party got too face was, sort of a abaration version of a mimic, and it coped the barbarian. And would have killed him. But I held back because I wanted a couple session campaign.
While it may not be the exact same situation you may want to consider listening to some of the combats from Critical Role. There is a very high damage barbarian named Grog in that and DM Matthew Mercer comes up with some decent ways to counter him.
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GM of The Bonus Role - We are playing a 5E game set in my homebrew world of Audra check us out Sunday's at 10 AM CST and follow us at the following social media links. https://www.twitch.tv/thebonusrole @BonusRole
I had the same problem with a game I ran not to long ago. To make an encounter challenging for the group (I mean the barbarian) I had to make the encounters so tough the rest of the party was devastated and didnt have fun or I had to make the encounters so specific you could tell I was totem hunting....and both went against my story line. I gave in and scrapped the original adventure and through the heros into a different world (ie new characters) with no bear totem barbarians...cheesy way to get out of it..
I don't mean to resurrect a dead thread but I've found using the Gritty Realism option for rests listed in the DMG is the perfect way to counter a power gaming/murder hobo party
Gritty Realism
This variant uses a short rest of 8 hours and a long rest of 7 days. This puts the brakes on the campaign, requiring the players to carefully judge the benefits and drawbacks of combat. Characters can’t afford to engage in too many battles in a row, and all adventuring requires careful planning.
This approach encourages the characters to spend time out of the dungeon. It’s a good option for campaigns that emphasize intrigue, politics, and interactions among other NPCs, and in which combat is rare or something to be avoided rather than rushed into.
Are they the type of characters that would go for a fighting tournament?
(Beware idea stolen from 7 Deadly Sins on Netflix)
Have the players turn up for fighting tournament run by BBEG who wants souls or something, loads of people from around the country have turned up for tournament too. They all get transported into a maze and seperated as too many people have turned up so BBEG wants to thin the crowd to only those that are worthy enough. Put challenges in that will mess with the players, play on their weaknessess and once through the maze they have to fight straight off. This encounter could go over a couple of sessions, make sure you track the abilities (ie rage) that are used, don't give them any rests. Make it so they have to use most of their abilities before they get to the main fight and if they succeed give them a nice reward which can only be used once every so many days.
Other options you could consider would be things like wall of force to split the party in combat. Layer that with an anti-magic field, and there isn't much they can do besides Duke it out. Other options would be to have the big bad guy take notice of the group, and start handing out magic items to his lackies. Nothing scarier than a tricky creature drinking a potion of cloud giant strength and come at you with a 40 ft jump across a canyon.
But really, just break down what is making the group so formidable, and look at ways to break up some of their advantages. Too many buffs on the barbarian? Anti-magic field. Too many attacks with advantage? Throw some fiends with devil's sight at them in magical darkness. Nets for movement, even something as simple as throwing some shadows in to drain the strength of the barb.
Change up your tactics often too. If you always throw the same counters at the party, they will adapt and it won't be a challenge anymore. There are plenty of ways to soften up PCs, and even more ways to justify them. The silence spell can do wonders against buffs, and have a minion there specifically to counterspell 1 or 2 spells from the party. Even the Web spell can cause headaches for a round or two. And then you can light it on fire, heh.
I find it helpful to just open up the monster manual, and just start reading each creature's special actions, and ask yourself, how would the party deal with that ability? If the answer is "very easily", try again until you can say "now that looks like it would give them trouble". Spice it up with a potion or a scroll, and you have an encounter that is different, challenging, and will hopefully breath life back into your combat encounters.
My personal favorite answers to this are a) Traps and Puzzles (please try to rage your way out of the sealed room...) and b) cursed items (because groups like this can often be swayed by the lure of shiny without thinking).
Most novel way I've seen however of dealing with power level like this was roll in fog, have them check for madness and drop them as level 1 characters on a stage in ravenloft with the previous campaign having been a play for the amusement of the locals. (Man did that throw our campaign when the DM tossed that at us as a series of slight reveals over 3-4 sessions).
Halv all the damage he does meele. like you change the monster stats, (I do this all the time since my players have read the monster manual from one end to the other) like maybe the monster are incorporial and don't take meele dmg. splitt the battlefield. so he no longer has friends, like wall of force. A hord of Barbarians might be fun. maybe talk to the players of what they would have liked, and how they would like the battles to be more interesting.
You'd think that All this raging would take its toll on Ones mind, maybe after too many rages per day he compeltly goes Berzerk?, make him do Wis/Int rolls, if he fails he charge/move/attack the CLOSEST creature to him, not making a difference between friends or foes, and each time he enters a Rage the save DC becomes more difficult.
This will force the other players to keep their distance from him, making it more difficult to buff him with the shortest range Buffs and auras.
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"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
You'd think that All this raging would take its toll on Ones mind, maybe after too many rages per day he compeltly goes Berzerk?, make him do Wis/Int rolls, if he fails he charge/move/attack the CLOSEST creature to him, not making a difference between friends or foes, and each time he enters a Rage the save DC becomes more difficult.
This will force the other players to keep their distance from him, making it more difficult to buff him with the shortest range Buffs and auras.
The only problem with this is it seems too much like a direct punishment for him using his abilities. At least with puzzles, traps and cursed objects it's making the character rely on his other abilities not just his rage. And if he picks up a cursed object then that's just his own fault.
Maybe a cursed object that buffs him when he rages, but then he suffers exhaustion afterwards!
I was thinking of a trap that opened in the floor and dropped the Barbarian into a well many feet below. Being a well (into which he falls) he isn't harmed but he is unable to participate in combat. Now the party has to fight for themselves.
How about a large open cavern with high perched positions for enemy archers to fire arrows at the party while the Barbarian has a vast distance to cross to do anything significant. He might get quite separated from the other party members he has relied upon so much.
How about a charming scent that causes a spell on the party as they venture further into the dungeon.
I always remember the sight of a rust monster (AD&D) cause fear in the mind of many fighters of all kinds.
How are his fighting skills in the dark? Magical darkness?
How about the classic way a party fights a pack of tough monsters except in reverse? Arrange for the Barbarian to be tanked where other enemies have ranged (spells and arrows) opportunities to damage him.
And how much better if the Barbarian falls unconscious and they have to carry him out and find a NPC healer? Now they are forced to do the story stuff. - My $0.02
I've had a couple of players take the Bear and I felt your pain. I had the same sort of pain with Swashbuckler, Rogue, Assassin and even 'spell casters'. I've since tightened up the Epic style of 5e, at least a bit, using a couple of home rules. I've also nipped the meta-gaming at the bud by establishing a couple of existing rules. These won't solve all the problems but I will attempt to explain how they make it better; at least 'bear'able. ha ha
First two home rules I established were related to character creation and encumbrance. I simply restrict starting characters to have 66 ability score points (before racial adjustment). Yes, that's right, ONLY 66! Not to mention they can only choose from certain pre-defined sets of ability scores such as 15 15 11 11 7 7. Basically, I did this to combat the min/max that goes on with players who know how to do that. The subtle thing here is that the bonuses in ability scores balance out with the negatives to a zero sum (of the modifiers). Well, until racial bonuses are applied.
This ability score adjustment was accepted by the players with puns, complaining, scorn and gouges but I kept with it and amazingly the players started to role play the character more. And amazingly the players all come back each week to play. The boon to the DM is this; min/max characters are nearly extinct and even if the character finagles a way to min/max they STILL have supporting stats that are weak points. I can exploit them at will.
I instituted a modified set of rules for encumbrance. At the beginning of each session each player/character must go through their equipment according to the variant encumbrance rules in the PHB. If they don't want movement to be reduced for the whole session for carrying too much stuff then they have to put the stuff somewhere. I gave them a donkey. Once they've balanced their weight according to variant rules we put the variant rule away for the rest of the session EXCEPT the results; the encumbrance result the variant rule enforces is kept for the session.
It's worked surprisingly well and the players think pretty hard about taking those heavy armors and weapons. Mainly because their strength might be 17 and all they can end up carrying is their armor, a couple weapons and very few other items. Even with a totem of the Bear Barbarian it adds up quick and there have been several sessions where their movement was restricted by their own choice. A very helpful 10' and an initiative order where several creatures go before the Barbarian yields a Barbarian that ends up chasing the opponent around. I didn't make the choice for them to go encumbered; they made that choice.
I also found, since I have several experienced players, that they like to very subtly meta-game. They aren't huge infractions but it's the table talk, planning and the knowledge of the MM that now get them in trouble. For example: Medusa shows up to fight the party. Player knows medusa is at disadvantage if she must avert her glare so the player has their character use a mirror in one hand while fighting. Great thinking!! But also, great meta-gaming.
Their character probably would not have known it was a Medusa at 5th level. Especially since their Intelligence is a 7. So I instituted a 'check'. They can use History or Arcana and their result tells me how much that character might know about a given creature. A roll over ten I'd let them know what it is and maybe how many hit points it has. A roll of 20 or more then they'd get a full description AND THEN the character could come up with the idea like using a mirror.
I find meta-gaming in the subtle way, especially with experienced players, takes A HUGE amount of fun out of the game for everyone. I really have to pay attention and watch for what player knowledge is subtly given to the characters. Now that I've learned to notice it I catch most of it and enforce a check. I was totally surprised at how this has changed the game and the role playing by the players.
Even though the characters usually still tear through the enemies easily I find that I do not need to adjust the CR levels or number of enemies much. I also notice that characters, no matter the class, tend to go to zero HP more often and thus the 'charge in and kill it' mentality of the players is much reduced. I find that the players are forced to actually use the features of their class, their spells, the magic items they find as much as they can. They must THINK and multiple times I hear their pain of 'when is our next long rest'.
I'm reading this thread because I want to implement some tactics that are mentioned here. Such as the spell choices and the physical barriers to separate the tanks from the softies. I have not mastered those yet and I already know by experience that the characters are eventually going to go into that second tier and WOW, the B.S. really builds up in an EPIC way. There's not a lot a DM can do but to pre-play the scenarios and find 'things' that'll work to challenge them.
A swarm of 'something' to attack their mage only deals minimal damage but causes Concentration checks to fail their spells. A small band of goblins to shoot arrows down the hall at the party, relentlessly, over and over, wears them down, gets them frustrated, causes them to make choices that spell trouble. Pairing up enemies with ready actions such that a character goes to attack one of the enemy; ready action moves it away out of movement range for the character and the other enemy takes ready action to fire at character from safety. Then on the enemies turn move if necessary and set ready actions.
My objective has gone from 'making it fair' to just making it a challenge. ANY of the classes, if played right and depending on the scenario are going to give a DM that defeated feeling. I've come to accept that 5e was designed that way and my small victory as a DM is to just get players to hesitate. That is about all the joy I'll get DM'ing 5e. At least for now.
Try Castles & Crusades. It's a beautiful system created about 20 years ago that, believe it or not is essentially 5e but has much of the old school feel. I use it many times in my group and people love it. It is a refreshing change for me and them.
Something I've observed both reading through these forums, and watching the DM for our group, is that a lot of DMs seem to get stuck on encounters that have just a handful of moderate to high CR monsters. They forget that it's pretty easy, especially as player level increases, to just throw in a bunch of very low CR minions into the mix. This fills battle map space, creates lots of opportunities for the monsters to have advantage, and creates more targets that the party has to deal with. Even if the minions aren't a threat to the frontliners, they can at least do meaningful damage to the backline and force them to reposition. It will also tax the spell slots of the casters, requiring more AoE spells to eliminate the minions so the party can focus on the big monsters.
Well, even if he is practically unkillable, his friends aren't.
I know it's not nice, but when I DM the intelligent enemies almost always go after the spellcasters and DPS folks first. Drow in particular know how to do this and exploit the party's weaknesses. That's why my players fear drow.
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Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
I have a Paladin in my group that is way overpowered. He rolled high stats and I let him keep them because I watched him roll and it was amazing. The whole group was trucking through battles ones after another. He kept breaking doors down because he wasn't afraid, until he met a Ooze that he got completely absorbed in, degrading all his weapons and armor. All the significant penalties to his equipment made him so vulnerable, he was brought to his knees during the next encounter. It was an amazing thing, and the whole group now needed to exercise extreme caution!
Perhaps an Ooze can handicap your player as well...
Well, even if he is practically unkillable, his friends aren't. I know it's not nice, but when I DM the intelligent enemies almost always go after the spellcasters and DPS folks first.
This. And even when I randomly assign targets (which is usual), I still have my monsters team up on that target, so the unkillable Barbarian doesn't really change the game much (since I'm not expecting a TPK anyway).
Something I've observed both reading through these forums, and watching the DM for our group, is that a lot of DMs seem to get stuck on encounters that have just a handful of moderate to high CR monsters. They forget that it's pretty easy, especially as player level increases, to just throw in a bunch of very low CR minions into the mix. This fills battle map space, creates lots of opportunities for the monsters to have advantage, and creates more targets that the party has to deal with. Even if the minions aren't a threat to the frontliners, they can at least do meaningful damage to the backline and force them to reposition. It will also tax the spell slots of the casters, requiring more AoE spells to eliminate the minions so the party can focus on the big monsters.
Hmmm....you've given me an idea. With these low CR creatures filling up grid squares and the fact that characters cannot move through an enemy square (unless a halfling or some feat/feature allows it) I could be blocking off large sections of a map and even pushing the characters back or into positions on the map I want. Well, assuming the low CR creatures don't just get cut down; Dodge might help with that. They don't require 'magic' to put them there and if close to a spell caster could do some concentration cancelling damage. I'm going to mess around with this idea a bit. Thanks!
Well, even if he is practically unkillable, his friends aren't. I know it's not nice, but when I DM the intelligent enemies almost always go after the spellcasters and DPS folks first.
This. And even when I randomly assign targets (which is usual), I still have my monsters team up on that target, so the unkillable Barbarian doesn't really change the game much (since I'm not expecting a TPK anyway).
I randomly assign targets if distances are more or less equal and the enemy is dumb. Otherwise, the smarter the enemy, the smarter the targeting.
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Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
So, there are some creative ways to use spells. Ie a mud spell with a dispell magic cast right after will essentially immobilize the entire party. A pair of enemy spell casters could do it.
If your looking for new and inventive ways look at the old editions of dnd. You could do a combo effect like using the beholders anti magic Ray followed by a cone or globe of silence which would effectively remove all magic items from play with no casting. For added fun, tell the party they can only talk via text to u and can only use hand signs to talk to each other
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Well if you want too do sage's idea then you could go with a monster that copy's the body and mind of its target.
And if you can't find one like that, your the Dm. you can create one that does do that.
I remember in the first, and last, session of a game I ran. The duo of murderhoboswhere helping clear out a sort of ninja school, full of abaration shinobi, whom took over the place because of reasons.
The toughest foe that my party got too face was, sort of a abaration version of a mimic, and it coped the barbarian. And would have killed him. But I held back because I wanted a couple session campaign.
It lasted half a session though.....
Current game- Pelegos: Singularity
Game world- Thad'thra, homebrew
Role- DM
Players- Maro: Light Cleric, Rivqah: Feind Warlock, Kortek: Artillerist Artificer
Plot: Uncover a conspiracy and truth behind the Dragon, Blasphemy, and the light of the kingdom that was stollen. Drenching Baranara into shadow.
While it may not be the exact same situation you may want to consider listening to some of the combats from Critical Role. There is a very high damage barbarian named Grog in that and DM Matthew Mercer comes up with some decent ways to counter him.
GM of The Bonus Role - We are playing a 5E game set in my homebrew world of Audra check us out Sunday's at 10 AM CST and follow us at the following social media links.
https://www.twitch.tv/thebonusrole
@BonusRole
Sounds like it's time to break out Tucker's Kobolds.
I had the same problem with a game I ran not to long ago. To make an encounter challenging for the group (I mean the barbarian) I had to make the encounters so tough the rest of the party was devastated and didnt have fun or I had to make the encounters so specific you could tell I was totem hunting....and both went against my story line. I gave in and scrapped the original adventure and through the heros into a different world (ie new characters) with no bear totem barbarians...cheesy way to get out of it..
I don't mean to resurrect a dead thread but I've found using the Gritty Realism option for rests listed in the DMG is the perfect way to counter a power gaming/murder hobo party
Gritty Realism
This variant uses a short rest of 8 hours and a long rest of 7 days. This puts the brakes on the campaign, requiring the players to carefully judge the benefits and drawbacks of combat. Characters can’t afford to engage in too many battles in a row, and all adventuring requires careful planning.
This approach encourages the characters to spend time out of the dungeon. It’s a good option for campaigns that emphasize intrigue, politics, and interactions among other NPCs, and in which combat is rare or something to be avoided rather than rushed into.
Are they the type of characters that would go for a fighting tournament?
(Beware idea stolen from 7 Deadly Sins on Netflix)
Have the players turn up for fighting tournament run by BBEG who wants souls or something, loads of people from around the country have turned up for tournament too. They all get transported into a maze and seperated as too many people have turned up so BBEG wants to thin the crowd to only those that are worthy enough. Put challenges in that will mess with the players, play on their weaknessess and once through the maze they have to fight straight off. This encounter could go over a couple of sessions, make sure you track the abilities (ie rage) that are used, don't give them any rests. Make it so they have to use most of their abilities before they get to the main fight and if they succeed give them a nice reward which can only be used once every so many days.
From Within Chaos Comes Order!
Other options you could consider would be things like wall of force to split the party in combat. Layer that with an anti-magic field, and there isn't much they can do besides Duke it out. Other options would be to have the big bad guy take notice of the group, and start handing out magic items to his lackies. Nothing scarier than a tricky creature drinking a potion of cloud giant strength and come at you with a 40 ft jump across a canyon.
But really, just break down what is making the group so formidable, and look at ways to break up some of their advantages. Too many buffs on the barbarian? Anti-magic field. Too many attacks with advantage? Throw some fiends with devil's sight at them in magical darkness. Nets for movement, even something as simple as throwing some shadows in to drain the strength of the barb.
Change up your tactics often too. If you always throw the same counters at the party, they will adapt and it won't be a challenge anymore. There are plenty of ways to soften up PCs, and even more ways to justify them. The silence spell can do wonders against buffs, and have a minion there specifically to counterspell 1 or 2 spells from the party. Even the Web spell can cause headaches for a round or two. And then you can light it on fire, heh.
I find it helpful to just open up the monster manual, and just start reading each creature's special actions, and ask yourself, how would the party deal with that ability? If the answer is "very easily", try again until you can say "now that looks like it would give them trouble". Spice it up with a potion or a scroll, and you have an encounter that is different, challenging, and will hopefully breath life back into your combat encounters.
Hope that helps some :)
My personal favorite answers to this are a) Traps and Puzzles (please try to rage your way out of the sealed room...) and b) cursed items (because groups like this can often be swayed by the lure of shiny without thinking).
Most novel way I've seen however of dealing with power level like this was roll in fog, have them check for madness and drop them as level 1 characters on a stage in ravenloft with the previous campaign having been a play for the amusement of the locals. (Man did that throw our campaign when the DM tossed that at us as a series of slight reveals over 3-4 sessions).
Hope that helps a bit.
Halv all the damage he does meele. like you change the monster stats, (I do this all the time since my players have read the monster manual from one end to the other) like maybe the monster are incorporial and don't take meele dmg. splitt the battlefield. so he no longer has friends, like wall of force. A hord of Barbarians might be fun. maybe talk to the players of what they would have liked, and how they would like the battles to be more interesting.
Fake it til you make it.
You'd think that All this raging would take its toll on Ones mind, maybe after too many rages per day he compeltly goes Berzerk?, make him do Wis/Int rolls, if he fails he charge/move/attack the CLOSEST creature to him, not making a difference between friends or foes, and each time he enters a Rage the save DC becomes more difficult.
This will force the other players to keep their distance from him, making it more difficult to buff him with the shortest range Buffs and auras.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
The only problem with this is it seems too much like a direct punishment for him using his abilities. At least with puzzles, traps and cursed objects it's making the character rely on his other abilities not just his rage. And if he picks up a cursed object then that's just his own fault.
Maybe a cursed object that buffs him when he rages, but then he suffers exhaustion afterwards!
From Within Chaos Comes Order!
I was thinking of a trap that opened in the floor and dropped the Barbarian into a well many feet below. Being a well (into which he falls) he isn't harmed but he is unable to participate in combat. Now the party has to fight for themselves.
How about a large open cavern with high perched positions for enemy archers to fire arrows at the party while the Barbarian has a vast distance to cross to do anything significant. He might get quite separated from the other party members he has relied upon so much.
How about a charming scent that causes a spell on the party as they venture further into the dungeon.
I always remember the sight of a rust monster (AD&D) cause fear in the mind of many fighters of all kinds.
How are his fighting skills in the dark? Magical darkness?
How about the classic way a party fights a pack of tough monsters except in reverse? Arrange for the Barbarian to be tanked where other enemies have ranged (spells and arrows) opportunities to damage him.
And how much better if the Barbarian falls unconscious and they have to carry him out and find a NPC healer? Now they are forced to do the story stuff. - My $0.02
I've had a couple of players take the Bear and I felt your pain. I had the same sort of pain with Swashbuckler, Rogue, Assassin and even 'spell casters'. I've since tightened up the Epic style of 5e, at least a bit, using a couple of home rules. I've also nipped the meta-gaming at the bud by establishing a couple of existing rules. These won't solve all the problems but I will attempt to explain how they make it better; at least 'bear'able. ha ha
First two home rules I established were related to character creation and encumbrance. I simply restrict starting characters to have 66 ability score points (before racial adjustment). Yes, that's right, ONLY 66! Not to mention they can only choose from certain pre-defined sets of ability scores such as 15 15 11 11 7 7. Basically, I did this to combat the min/max that goes on with players who know how to do that. The subtle thing here is that the bonuses in ability scores balance out with the negatives to a zero sum (of the modifiers). Well, until racial bonuses are applied.
This ability score adjustment was accepted by the players with puns, complaining, scorn and gouges but I kept with it and amazingly the players started to role play the character more. And amazingly the players all come back each week to play. The boon to the DM is this; min/max characters are nearly extinct and even if the character finagles a way to min/max they STILL have supporting stats that are weak points. I can exploit them at will.
I instituted a modified set of rules for encumbrance. At the beginning of each session each player/character must go through their equipment according to the variant encumbrance rules in the PHB. If they don't want movement to be reduced for the whole session for carrying too much stuff then they have to put the stuff somewhere. I gave them a donkey. Once they've balanced their weight according to variant rules we put the variant rule away for the rest of the session EXCEPT the results; the encumbrance result the variant rule enforces is kept for the session.
It's worked surprisingly well and the players think pretty hard about taking those heavy armors and weapons. Mainly because their strength might be 17 and all they can end up carrying is their armor, a couple weapons and very few other items. Even with a totem of the Bear Barbarian it adds up quick and there have been several sessions where their movement was restricted by their own choice. A very helpful 10' and an initiative order where several creatures go before the Barbarian yields a Barbarian that ends up chasing the opponent around. I didn't make the choice for them to go encumbered; they made that choice.
I also found, since I have several experienced players, that they like to very subtly meta-game. They aren't huge infractions but it's the table talk, planning and the knowledge of the MM that now get them in trouble. For example: Medusa shows up to fight the party. Player knows medusa is at disadvantage if she must avert her glare so the player has their character use a mirror in one hand while fighting. Great thinking!! But also, great meta-gaming.
Their character probably would not have known it was a Medusa at 5th level. Especially since their Intelligence is a 7. So I instituted a 'check'. They can use History or Arcana and their result tells me how much that character might know about a given creature. A roll over ten I'd let them know what it is and maybe how many hit points it has. A roll of 20 or more then they'd get a full description AND THEN the character could come up with the idea like using a mirror.
I find meta-gaming in the subtle way, especially with experienced players, takes A HUGE amount of fun out of the game for everyone. I really have to pay attention and watch for what player knowledge is subtly given to the characters. Now that I've learned to notice it I catch most of it and enforce a check. I was totally surprised at how this has changed the game and the role playing by the players.
Even though the characters usually still tear through the enemies easily I find that I do not need to adjust the CR levels or number of enemies much. I also notice that characters, no matter the class, tend to go to zero HP more often and thus the 'charge in and kill it' mentality of the players is much reduced. I find that the players are forced to actually use the features of their class, their spells, the magic items they find as much as they can. They must THINK and multiple times I hear their pain of 'when is our next long rest'.
I'm reading this thread because I want to implement some tactics that are mentioned here. Such as the spell choices and the physical barriers to separate the tanks from the softies. I have not mastered those yet and I already know by experience that the characters are eventually going to go into that second tier and WOW, the B.S. really builds up in an EPIC way. There's not a lot a DM can do but to pre-play the scenarios and find 'things' that'll work to challenge them.
A swarm of 'something' to attack their mage only deals minimal damage but causes Concentration checks to fail their spells. A small band of goblins to shoot arrows down the hall at the party, relentlessly, over and over, wears them down, gets them frustrated, causes them to make choices that spell trouble. Pairing up enemies with ready actions such that a character goes to attack one of the enemy; ready action moves it away out of movement range for the character and the other enemy takes ready action to fire at character from safety. Then on the enemies turn move if necessary and set ready actions.
My objective has gone from 'making it fair' to just making it a challenge. ANY of the classes, if played right and depending on the scenario are going to give a DM that defeated feeling. I've come to accept that 5e was designed that way and my small victory as a DM is to just get players to hesitate. That is about all the joy I'll get DM'ing 5e. At least for now.
Try Castles & Crusades. It's a beautiful system created about 20 years ago that, believe it or not is essentially 5e but has much of the old school feel. I use it many times in my group and people love it. It is a refreshing change for me and them.
Something I've observed both reading through these forums, and watching the DM for our group, is that a lot of DMs seem to get stuck on encounters that have just a handful of moderate to high CR monsters. They forget that it's pretty easy, especially as player level increases, to just throw in a bunch of very low CR minions into the mix. This fills battle map space, creates lots of opportunities for the monsters to have advantage, and creates more targets that the party has to deal with. Even if the minions aren't a threat to the frontliners, they can at least do meaningful damage to the backline and force them to reposition. It will also tax the spell slots of the casters, requiring more AoE spells to eliminate the minions so the party can focus on the big monsters.
Well, even if he is practically unkillable, his friends aren't.
I know it's not nice, but when I DM the intelligent enemies almost always go after the spellcasters and DPS folks first. Drow in particular know how to do this and exploit the party's weaknesses. That's why my players fear drow.
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
I have a Paladin in my group that is way overpowered. He rolled high stats and I let him keep them because I watched him roll and it was amazing. The whole group was trucking through battles ones after another. He kept breaking doors down because he wasn't afraid, until he met a Ooze that he got completely absorbed in, degrading all his weapons and armor. All the significant penalties to his equipment made him so vulnerable, he was brought to his knees during the next encounter. It was an amazing thing, and the whole group now needed to exercise extreme caution!
Perhaps an Ooze can handicap your player as well...
"Shadow Hide You..."
This. And even when I randomly assign targets (which is usual), I still have my monsters team up on that target, so the unkillable Barbarian doesn't really change the game much (since I'm not expecting a TPK anyway).
Hmmm....you've given me an idea. With these low CR creatures filling up grid squares and the fact that characters cannot move through an enemy square (unless a halfling or some feat/feature allows it) I could be blocking off large sections of a map and even pushing the characters back or into positions on the map I want. Well, assuming the low CR creatures don't just get cut down; Dodge might help with that. They don't require 'magic' to put them there and if close to a spell caster could do some concentration cancelling damage. I'm going to mess around with this idea a bit. Thanks!
I randomly assign targets if distances are more or less equal and the enemy is dumb. Otherwise, the smarter the enemy, the smarter the targeting.
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
So, there are some creative ways to use spells. Ie a mud spell with a dispell magic cast right after will essentially immobilize the entire party. A pair of enemy spell casters could do it.
If your looking for new and inventive ways look at the old editions of dnd. You could do a combo effect like using the beholders anti magic Ray followed by a cone or globe of silence which would effectively remove all magic items from play with no casting. For added fun, tell the party they can only talk via text to u and can only use hand signs to talk to each other