I'm currently running Out of the Abyss with my group, but we don't particularly like the madness effects as we feel that it messes to much with the characters (as it should). This is a complain in got from the players, so I want to address it somehow.
I wouldn't want to completely remove madness though, as it's a central part of dealing with the biggest threats in the adventure, but rather change its effects so they affect more game mechanics (ie: penalty on saving throws) and less character behavior.
Do you have any suggestion on the matter? Is it a good idea or do you have something better in mind? I'm open to any suggestion.
A quick and dirty way to handle madness is to just arbitrarily hand out Disadvantage on various things the players try to do and flavor it as a psychological malady that is distracting them at inopportune moments. As the players acquire higher levels of madness, just make note to hand out more Disadvantage more often.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
If you prefer to have it effect them at random, roll a d20 in secret every time they do a full action (i.e., skill check or combat roll, but not saves). Advantage can not counter the effect. If your result exceeds the player's wisdom score, give the player a disadvantage on their check/roll. As their madness increased, the range increases. After two higher rolls, you add 2 to your roll. You should also refer to the madness table.
I'd use the minor madness for madness under 10, long term for over 10, and indefinite for those who have failed more than their wisdom score.
If you prefer to have it effect them at random, roll a d20 in secret every time they do a full action (i.e., skill check or combat roll, but not saves). Advantage can not counter the effect. If your result exceeds the player's wisdom score, give the player a disadvantage on their check/roll. As their madness increased, the range increases. After two higher rolls, you add 2 to your roll. You should also refer to the madness table.
I'd sue the minor madness for madness under 10, long term for over 10, and indefinite for those who have failed more than their wisdom score.
Damn Americans, always so lawsuit happy :P
But yeah, I'm using the madness rule and the sanity stat in my current mind flayer campaign. Outside of rolling for madness saves, I haven't figured out other ways to use the ability, though.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
If you prefer to have it effect them at random, roll a d20 in secret every time they do a full action (i.e., skill check or combat roll, but not saves). Advantage can not counter the effect. If your result exceeds the player's wisdom score, give the player a disadvantage on their check/roll. As their madness increased, the range increases. After two higher rolls, you add 2 to your roll. You should also refer to the madness table.
I'd sue the minor madness for madness under 10, long term for over 10, and indefinite for those who have failed more than their wisdom score.
Damn Americans, always so lawsuit happy :P
But yeah, I'm using the madness rule and the sanity stat in my current mind flayer campaign. Outside of rolling for madness saves, I haven't figured out other ways to use the ability, though.
Nice catch on my typo.
Madness effects people in different ways. Some people are just naturally out there. Aside from madness checks, I also use sanity for heroic actions (because you'd got to be a little mad to try it!) and occasionally, as RP change points.
For RP change points, if a player does something that goes against their alignment, I put a point into the proper alignment, and when they reach a certain number of points in any one alignment, I hand the player an adjustment notification note.
So Bob, the NG fighter, starts acting in his self-interest (survival excluded). Each time he does an action that would go against goodness, I would make a mark. After an alignment reaches a score of 10, reset all points and send a note explaining what has happened. The alignment modifications can affect the relationship with a player's God, interactions with the authorities, or even reactions by NPCs.
I have made or looked up descriptions of some gruesome or just horrifying scenes that fit the campaign setting and the location of the group. I have them roll saves as normal (Usually wisdom) and then they have a vision where I use one of my descriptions. Then they usually lose their action that turn, not for 10 minutes like the madness table says. Then I usually roll a d10, d8, or d6 depending on the level of madness they have and when that number of turns has passed they get another saving throw to avoid another vision.
I feel that if you have an entire party succumbing to madness then you lose way too much valuable action recourse, especially low level before you have restoration.
In Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, there are optional rules for fear and stress in chapter 4 that are meant to replace madness. The seeds of fear idea may be what you're looking for as they just add a trigger mechanism for a character to become frightened.
I've been reading through the new Aliens RPG system and it had a system I was thinking of shamelessly pirating called "panic": worth a look if you want something that plays with character psychology a bit.
I feel that if you have an entire party succumbing to madness then you lose way too much valuable action recourse, especially low level before you have restoration.
This is my problem with madness in 5e. It's either something that can be ignored/forgotten (as with most personality effects, particularly if your players aren't into RP) or it's disproportionately punitive on the mechanics side. I have yet to find a decent balance, and I'm still looking.
I introduced a madness effect for a couple players who attempted to read a scroll that contained forbidden knowledge. The best I came up with was to feed them false information using their passive and active perception. It was fun for a little while, having the wizard see and hear things that weren't always there. Got the party to chase shadows for a bit until they realized something was fishy. There's no way I could keep this up in the long run, though, and the other player did not enjoy the effects at all, so I let the madness fade to keep everything fun and on-task.
In the real world, madness is a major disadvantage. Crazy people are not the psycho killers hurting people, instead they are the victims being beaten, robbed, etc. Crazy people trust the wrong guy, depend on non-working theories to save them, etc.
One way to simulate that is to tell them they are getting special powers. Just give out free OP stuff. Magic items, feats, new spells. Let them work for a while, then they suddenly realize they were hallucinating it. They sword does not do 10d6 on a crit, just normal crit. The spell you were casting was not a 2nd level ice version of fireball, it was just Ice Knife.
You could try using a level of exhaustion as the first effect of the madness. Ramp up on the tables from there. The one level of exhaustion can be removed by a low level part more easily and the mechanical effects of fatigue can simulate low levels of temporary madness.
You could intersperse the mounting levels of exhaustion with the madness effects if the madness is becoming a sticking point in the game.
Something like:
Exhaustion level 1
Madness minor
Exhaustion level 2
Madness ... etc
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Hi all,
I'm currently running Out of the Abyss with my group, but we don't particularly like the madness effects as we feel that it messes to much with the characters (as it should). This is a complain in got from the players, so I want to address it somehow.
I wouldn't want to completely remove madness though, as it's a central part of dealing with the biggest threats in the adventure, but rather change its effects so they affect more game mechanics (ie: penalty on saving throws) and less character behavior.
Do you have any suggestion on the matter? Is it a good idea or do you have something better in mind? I'm open to any suggestion.
Thanks!
A quick and dirty way to handle madness is to just arbitrarily hand out Disadvantage on various things the players try to do and flavor it as a psychological malady that is distracting them at inopportune moments. As the players acquire higher levels of madness, just make note to hand out more Disadvantage more often.
If you prefer to have it effect them at random, roll a d20 in secret every time they do a full action (i.e., skill check or combat roll, but not saves). Advantage can not counter the effect. If your result exceeds the player's wisdom score, give the player a disadvantage on their check/roll. As their madness increased, the range increases. After two higher rolls, you add 2 to your roll. You should also refer to the madness table.
I'd use the minor madness for madness under 10, long term for over 10, and indefinite for those who have failed more than their wisdom score.
But yeah, I'm using the madness rule and the sanity stat in my current mind flayer campaign. Outside of rolling for madness saves, I haven't figured out other ways to use the ability, though.
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Thank you four the suggestions! I'll have a go an see how it goes :)
I have made or looked up descriptions of some gruesome or just horrifying scenes that fit the campaign setting and the location of the group. I have them roll saves as normal (Usually wisdom) and then they have a vision where I use one of my descriptions. Then they usually lose their action that turn, not for 10 minutes like the madness table says. Then I usually roll a d10, d8, or d6 depending on the level of madness they have and when that number of turns has passed they get another saving throw to avoid another vision.
I feel that if you have an entire party succumbing to madness then you lose way too much valuable action recourse, especially low level before you have restoration.
In Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, there are optional rules for fear and stress in chapter 4 that are meant to replace madness. The seeds of fear idea may be what you're looking for as they just add a trigger mechanism for a character to become frightened.
How about "The Madness of Insanity Save Throws in Dungeons & Dragons" - hope this helps, else inspires, Madness Insanity Save Throws
There used to be tables for despair associated with the shadowfell.
Somebody on reddit did homebrew a 5e version as well: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/comments/h0ni40/i_created_a_despair_table_for_a_new_shadowfell/
It isn't totally different from madness, but is a bit more transitional, and thematically might fit in quite well.
I've been reading through the new Aliens RPG system and it had a system I was thinking of shamelessly pirating called "panic": worth a look if you want something that plays with character psychology a bit.
This is my problem with madness in 5e. It's either something that can be ignored/forgotten (as with most personality effects, particularly if your players aren't into RP) or it's disproportionately punitive on the mechanics side. I have yet to find a decent balance, and I'm still looking.
I introduced a madness effect for a couple players who attempted to read a scroll that contained forbidden knowledge. The best I came up with was to feed them false information using their passive and active perception. It was fun for a little while, having the wizard see and hear things that weren't always there. Got the party to chase shadows for a bit until they realized something was fishy. There's no way I could keep this up in the long run, though, and the other player did not enjoy the effects at all, so I let the madness fade to keep everything fun and on-task.
In the real world, madness is a major disadvantage. Crazy people are not the psycho killers hurting people, instead they are the victims being beaten, robbed, etc. Crazy people trust the wrong guy, depend on non-working theories to save them, etc.
One way to simulate that is to tell them they are getting special powers. Just give out free OP stuff. Magic items, feats, new spells. Let them work for a while, then they suddenly realize they were hallucinating it. They sword does not do 10d6 on a crit, just normal crit. The spell you were casting was not a 2nd level ice version of fireball, it was just Ice Knife.
You could try using a level of exhaustion as the first effect of the madness. Ramp up on the tables from there. The one level of exhaustion can be removed by a low level part more easily and the mechanical effects of fatigue can simulate low levels of temporary madness.
You could intersperse the mounting levels of exhaustion with the madness effects if the madness is becoming a sticking point in the game.
Something like:
Exhaustion level 1
Madness minor
Exhaustion level 2
Madness ... etc