So, I just started DMing my first campaign, and I have a lot of new players (we’re all new, haha). One of my players is a paladin and she’s very close spiritually to the god she has devoted herself to (courage and self-sacrifice). The group is currently trying to solve a mystery, and at one point the players got stuck (too focused on a small part of the puzzle), so she decided to pray for assistance. I realized I had no idea how praying and god intervention was supposed to work. I remember vaguely that clerics do have an actual spell (?) for that, but when I checked, I didn’t see anything for paladins communicating with their gods. Eventually, because I had to do something, I just told her she felt that they were on desecrated ground and that there was more for her to do elsewhere in the building.
But, for future reference, I thought I’d ask if anyone has any ideas for how I should handle future situations like this? What’s worked for you in the past?
Generally, the short answer is, no, what the player is wanting is a higher level feature of another class. That said, if the player RP'ed it really well, you might want to consider granting her Inspiration or maybe give her a hit of Guidance on her next roll to sort out the problem?
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Completely agree with Metamongoose. And I think you made a good call in the moment. I'm glad you remembered that divine intervention (both the spell and the action) should not be thrown out willy-nilly.
In future, what I like to do with divine classes, is have them grow closer to their god as time progresses. From their first prayers sometimes eliciting a peaceful feeling, or confidence in what they're doing if it's in alignment with their god. This can sometimes be just that 'you feel confident that your god is pleased with your actions', or it can manifest as rolling with advantage on an attack roll to smash the evil altar. It should generally be narrative though, just a little reminder that the Paladin's god is keeping tabs on what they're doing.
As the player progresses on their journey, if they continue to walk the path their god has ordained, then they might have dreams or visions, where their god more clearly dictates their will. Again, this is mainly narrative. I've shot a player an SMS after a long rest, with a cryptic vision that essentially warned them about a glowing crystal they'd encounter later in the dungeon. It wasn't an explicit 'don't touch the crystal' , but more of a 'in the dream, you reach out and touch the crystal, and as you do, you feel the sensation of falling, flames and fear.' What they did with the information was up to them.
I'd save actual physical manifestations of divine intervention - as in, direct interaction with the world - for the high level spells and features that allow it.
The reason paladins don't have anything in the way of divine connection is that 5e paladins are no more connected to their god than the average believer. They get their power through their oaths and the strength of their character, not from an outside power.
Clerics do get a class ability at Level 10 called Divine Intervention, but even that ability has a low chance of actually working. But when it does work, it can have a massive effect. It is literally the direct intervention of a full deity!
But even though other classes don't have an official listed ability like that, paladins are more closely connected to their divine masters than any other character, except maybe clerics. So even though there is no official "Rule As Written", there shouldn't be anything to prevent any character who is totally devoted to a deity from praying for assistance. But any assistance that is received would be nothing more than a minor nudge or clue.
If it were my table, I would ask the paladin to use an action to pray and then make a straight wisdom check (D20 + wisdom modifier). If the paladin were to spend a full minute or more in supplication and make an offering as well, then maybe they could make the wisdom check with advantage.
A result of 14 or lower gets no response. Maybe the deity is busy.
A result of 15 to 20 would get a very minor nudge or cryptic hint. Something like a gut feeling of dread, or maybe the wind suddenly shifts direction.
A result above 20 would get a more helpful hint, but still quite vague.
Whatever the result, be sure to keep it vague and open to interpretation. Also apply the Law of Diminishing Returns. You don't want the player praying every dang round before swinging their sword. So maybe they get one chance per day, and anything beyond that gets no response. After all, the deity has more things to attend to than just the needs of this one lowly paladin.
But it's a good sign that the player is getting into the head of their character and role playing nicely.
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Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Well, there are a few spells, like Augury and others.
That being said, if the player was doing something in character, that seemed to make sense, perhaps have the god (or a messenger) intervene if it's dramatically important.
The person doesn't even have to be a priest or cleric. Think of a rogue asking for help from Tymora for a gambling roll (as an example).
Note that if a character receives a response (or perceived response) this can be a great way to start/introduce a character arc for them.
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"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
The person doesn't even have to be a priest or cleric. Think of a rogue asking for help from Tymora for a gambling roll (as an example).
This bit's important - as Lunali mentioned earlier - a Paladin's powers don't come directly from the deity. This also means you can have a lot of fun leading players down the garden path - sure they might have a vision of something, but there's nothing to say it's from their deity. Could just be their imagination.
Or, for tension, give two players opposing visions about the same item. Great fun.
By the rules, the paladin at that level has no particular ability to get insight from a god.
HOWEVER.
The player is giving you a very strong indication that they are stuck and have no idea what to do, and are also giving you a narrative hook to help push the character in a more productive direction. I would consider taking it instead of having the party continue to be stuck, especially if they've been going around in circles for a while. Have the player make a roll appropriate to the situation, and then give them an appropriate hint.
(Since the paladin has no particular divine intervention ability, narrate it appropriately. If they roll low, I'd say something like "you pray, but your God is silent. Maybe they don't hear you, or maybe they have other Divine concerns. Either way, you realize it's up to you to resolve this, with your mortal abilities. You remember ______" [pointer in the right direction goes there at the end.]. Or if they roll high, "You clear your mind and pray. No divine answer is forthcoming, but the meditation helps focus you - you remember [hint goes here].")
How much of a hint to give would depend on reading the room and seeing how frustrated or stuck the players are. If they're just starting on the puzzle and this is an attempt to skip to the solution, don't give them anything useful. If they've been going around in circles and getting frustrated and losing interest, point them in a more productive direction.
I made a rough sketch of a homebrew mechanic that I called "Devotion". Basically each character has a devotion score to a deity of their choice. They can increase it in a variety of ways.
Praying to their god or worshipping in the correct way - The player makes a religion check against DC13. On a success, they gain one devotion. (add a limit to how often can be done, I originally had once per ingame week but since the group doesn't meet up very often once a session ended up being fine)
Sacrificing to their god/deity/patron - This will vary depending on the type of deity, but if the sacrifice is made it adds one devotion point. They make a religion check while doing it and gain another devotion on a DC13. Instead of a sacrifice, it could be a donation of gold or something valuable to a church/temple/monastery or what have you.
Creating a Shrine or Temple - This requires time and money. For +2 Devotion points, you need to spend a whole day working on it and 50 GP. For +4 Devotion points, you need to spend a week of downtime and 150GP. Costs may change if you already have a shrine or temple that you are co-opting or restoring. Praying/worshipping/sacrificing at a shrine or temple that YOU made for your god gives you advantage on the religion check made to gain devotion.
Then, in or out of combat, the player can do a mini-divine intervention. They roll a religion check and add all of their devotion points to it. The DC is pretty high depending on what they ask for, I wouldn't go lower than a DC19 and frequently it's around 22 since they can stack devotion high and often use guidance or bardic inspiration or something on the roll (you can disallow this if you want.) On a successful or unsuccessful roll, all of their devotion points are reduced back to zero.
For example, during a climactic boss fight in my last session, the Rogue (who worships the Shade, god of death, silence and the void who is basically the grim reaper of this world) rolled devotion to save the bard (who is unconscious, also his love interest). He asked that the bard get taken to safety and rolled really high, but instead I healed him for 20 points since they were in a place where teleporting was restricted.
Also, you can penalize Devotion points if they do anything wrong. For example if a warlock disobeys their patron, if they go a certain amount of time without worshipping, if they commit a blasphemous act or fail to follow the code of their religion, etc. It's a nice way to incentivize players to play their character and engage with their fictional religion.
I know that it steps on the baileywick of the Cleric and their divine intervention, but the key difference is that to roll Devotion it has to be earned. Clerics can always attempt it, because it's their thing. Rolling for devotion is also nice because it's always there as an option for the player if they are lost or confused and just need a hail mary.
In my party, five out of seven players have gods or religions as important parts of their character, so the mechanic gets used a lot. My group also isn't very interested in optimized efficiency in gameplay or exploiting game mechanics, so I guess a group like that might see this as something to take advantage of. YMMV
The reason paladins don't have anything in the way of divine connection is that 5e paladins are no more connected to their god than the average believer. They get their power through their oaths and the strength of their character, not from an outside power.
As both a player and a DM I love when my devout players engage with their God on a regular basis. It's an awesome backstory hook, a great continuation of role playing, and a chance to continue to grow in a specific way. But I always keep in mind a quote from MASH:
"Is it true that God answers all prayers?" "Yes. But sometimes the answer is no."
There are spells and powers that can be used (and have been already discussed in this thread) to get more concrete assistance, and I feel that if you use one of those powers you deserve to get a bit more than just praying for help. You're giving up an ability, or a spell slot, to get something specific. But I agree with FTL that the player has offered you role playing options, or is giving you a sign that they need help, and it's always good to offer something in return! If they do it too often you can start saying that they get no response. But otherwise I'd offer at least positive reinforcement - "You don't get words, but the feeling of reassurance from your God. They have faith in your abilities to fix this!" If part of this character is how important their God is to them, then at least this bit of positive reinforcement can give them some good role playing help.
Hello!
So, I just started DMing my first campaign, and I have a lot of new players (we’re all new, haha). One of my players is a paladin and she’s very close spiritually to the god she has devoted herself to (courage and self-sacrifice). The group is currently trying to solve a mystery, and at one point the players got stuck (too focused on a small part of the puzzle), so she decided to pray for assistance. I realized I had no idea how praying and god intervention was supposed to work. I remember vaguely that clerics do have an actual spell (?) for that, but when I checked, I didn’t see anything for paladins communicating with their gods. Eventually, because I had to do something, I just told her she felt that they were on desecrated ground and that there was more for her to do elsewhere in the building.
But, for future reference, I thought I’d ask if anyone has any ideas for how I should handle future situations like this? What’s worked for you in the past?
Generally, the short answer is, no, what the player is wanting is a higher level feature of another class. That said, if the player RP'ed it really well, you might want to consider granting her Inspiration or maybe give her a hit of Guidance on her next roll to sort out the problem?
Completely agree with Metamongoose. And I think you made a good call in the moment. I'm glad you remembered that divine intervention (both the spell and the action) should not be thrown out willy-nilly.
In future, what I like to do with divine classes, is have them grow closer to their god as time progresses. From their first prayers sometimes eliciting a peaceful feeling, or confidence in what they're doing if it's in alignment with their god. This can sometimes be just that 'you feel confident that your god is pleased with your actions', or it can manifest as rolling with advantage on an attack roll to smash the evil altar. It should generally be narrative though, just a little reminder that the Paladin's god is keeping tabs on what they're doing.
As the player progresses on their journey, if they continue to walk the path their god has ordained, then they might have dreams or visions, where their god more clearly dictates their will. Again, this is mainly narrative. I've shot a player an SMS after a long rest, with a cryptic vision that essentially warned them about a glowing crystal they'd encounter later in the dungeon. It wasn't an explicit 'don't touch the crystal' , but more of a 'in the dream, you reach out and touch the crystal, and as you do, you feel the sensation of falling, flames and fear.' What they did with the information was up to them.
I'd save actual physical manifestations of divine intervention - as in, direct interaction with the world - for the high level spells and features that allow it.
The reason paladins don't have anything in the way of divine connection is that 5e paladins are no more connected to their god than the average believer. They get their power through their oaths and the strength of their character, not from an outside power.
Clerics do get a class ability at Level 10 called Divine Intervention, but even that ability has a low chance of actually working. But when it does work, it can have a massive effect. It is literally the direct intervention of a full deity!
But even though other classes don't have an official listed ability like that, paladins are more closely connected to their divine masters than any other character, except maybe clerics. So even though there is no official "Rule As Written", there shouldn't be anything to prevent any character who is totally devoted to a deity from praying for assistance. But any assistance that is received would be nothing more than a minor nudge or clue.
If it were my table, I would ask the paladin to use an action to pray and then make a straight wisdom check (D20 + wisdom modifier). If the paladin were to spend a full minute or more in supplication and make an offering as well, then maybe they could make the wisdom check with advantage.
A result of 14 or lower gets no response. Maybe the deity is busy.
A result of 15 to 20 would get a very minor nudge or cryptic hint. Something like a gut feeling of dread, or maybe the wind suddenly shifts direction.
A result above 20 would get a more helpful hint, but still quite vague.
Whatever the result, be sure to keep it vague and open to interpretation. Also apply the Law of Diminishing Returns. You don't want the player praying every dang round before swinging their sword. So maybe they get one chance per day, and anything beyond that gets no response. After all, the deity has more things to attend to than just the needs of this one lowly paladin.
But it's a good sign that the player is getting into the head of their character and role playing nicely.
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
Well, there are a few spells, like Augury and others.
That being said, if the player was doing something in character, that seemed to make sense, perhaps have the god (or a messenger) intervene if it's dramatically important.
The person doesn't even have to be a priest or cleric. Think of a rogue asking for help from Tymora for a gambling roll (as an example).
Note that if a character receives a response (or perceived response) this can be a great way to start/introduce a character arc for them.
"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
This bit's important - as Lunali mentioned earlier - a Paladin's powers don't come directly from the deity. This also means you can have a lot of fun leading players down the garden path - sure they might have a vision of something, but there's nothing to say it's from their deity. Could just be their imagination.
Or, for tension, give two players opposing visions about the same item. Great fun.
Yeah, there's two answers here.
By the rules, the paladin at that level has no particular ability to get insight from a god.
HOWEVER.
The player is giving you a very strong indication that they are stuck and have no idea what to do, and are also giving you a narrative hook to help push the character in a more productive direction. I would consider taking it instead of having the party continue to be stuck, especially if they've been going around in circles for a while. Have the player make a roll appropriate to the situation, and then give them an appropriate hint.
(Since the paladin has no particular divine intervention ability, narrate it appropriately. If they roll low, I'd say something like "you pray, but your God is silent. Maybe they don't hear you, or maybe they have other Divine concerns. Either way, you realize it's up to you to resolve this, with your mortal abilities. You remember ______" [pointer in the right direction goes there at the end.]. Or if they roll high, "You clear your mind and pray. No divine answer is forthcoming, but the meditation helps focus you - you remember [hint goes here].")
How much of a hint to give would depend on reading the room and seeing how frustrated or stuck the players are. If they're just starting on the puzzle and this is an attempt to skip to the solution, don't give them anything useful. If they've been going around in circles and getting frustrated and losing interest, point them in a more productive direction.
I made a rough sketch of a homebrew mechanic that I called "Devotion". Basically each character has a devotion score to a deity of their choice. They can increase it in a variety of ways.
Praying to their god or worshipping in the correct way - The player makes a religion check against DC13. On a success, they gain one devotion. (add a limit to how often can be done, I originally had once per ingame week but since the group doesn't meet up very often once a session ended up being fine)
Sacrificing to their god/deity/patron - This will vary depending on the type of deity, but if the sacrifice is made it adds one devotion point. They make a religion check while doing it and gain another devotion on a DC13. Instead of a sacrifice, it could be a donation of gold or something valuable to a church/temple/monastery or what have you.
Creating a Shrine or Temple - This requires time and money. For +2 Devotion points, you need to spend a whole day working on it and 50 GP. For +4 Devotion points, you need to spend a week of downtime and 150GP. Costs may change if you already have a shrine or temple that you are co-opting or restoring. Praying/worshipping/sacrificing at a shrine or temple that YOU made for your god gives you advantage on the religion check made to gain devotion.
Then, in or out of combat, the player can do a mini-divine intervention. They roll a religion check and add all of their devotion points to it. The DC is pretty high depending on what they ask for, I wouldn't go lower than a DC19 and frequently it's around 22 since they can stack devotion high and often use guidance or bardic inspiration or something on the roll (you can disallow this if you want.) On a successful or unsuccessful roll, all of their devotion points are reduced back to zero.
For example, during a climactic boss fight in my last session, the Rogue (who worships the Shade, god of death, silence and the void who is basically the grim reaper of this world) rolled devotion to save the bard (who is unconscious, also his love interest). He asked that the bard get taken to safety and rolled really high, but instead I healed him for 20 points since they were in a place where teleporting was restricted.
Also, you can penalize Devotion points if they do anything wrong. For example if a warlock disobeys their patron, if they go a certain amount of time without worshipping, if they commit a blasphemous act or fail to follow the code of their religion, etc. It's a nice way to incentivize players to play their character and engage with their fictional religion.
I know that it steps on the baileywick of the Cleric and their divine intervention, but the key difference is that to roll Devotion it has to be earned. Clerics can always attempt it, because it's their thing. Rolling for devotion is also nice because it's always there as an option for the player if they are lost or confused and just need a hail mary.
In my party, five out of seven players have gods or religions as important parts of their character, so the mechanic gets used a lot. My group also isn't very interested in optimized efficiency in gameplay or exploiting game mechanics, so I guess a group like that might see this as something to take advantage of. YMMV
That's a possibility for clerics, too.
As both a player and a DM I love when my devout players engage with their God on a regular basis. It's an awesome backstory hook, a great continuation of role playing, and a chance to continue to grow in a specific way. But I always keep in mind a quote from MASH:
"Is it true that God answers all prayers?"
"Yes. But sometimes the answer is no."
There are spells and powers that can be used (and have been already discussed in this thread) to get more concrete assistance, and I feel that if you use one of those powers you deserve to get a bit more than just praying for help. You're giving up an ability, or a spell slot, to get something specific. But I agree with FTL that the player has offered you role playing options, or is giving you a sign that they need help, and it's always good to offer something in return! If they do it too often you can start saying that they get no response. But otherwise I'd offer at least positive reinforcement - "You don't get words, but the feeling of reassurance from your God. They have faith in your abilities to fix this!" If part of this character is how important their God is to them, then at least this bit of positive reinforcement can give them some good role playing help.
Find me on Twitter: @OboeLauren