My character has gotten some information which if it spreads most likely will cause the death of his in-game sister even though she has committed no wrong.
It has to do with her ancestry and her relation (by blood) to the big baddy (at the moment) in our campaign.
So he is considering lying to his superior regarding his by not talking about it (lying by omission). He feels horrible about doing that, but sentencing her to death while she has done no wrong also feels horribly wrong. So it's like choosing between two evils. For me it's part of what makes a paladin 3d instead of just a bunch of numbers but I'd like other people their opinion on it.
How do you guys look at that? What should be the consequences if any, except a guilty conscience?
- posted this also in the paladin forum but since not everybody checks that forum I also posted it here -
Every so often there is an interesting alignment discussion on the Discord channel. Lots of people consider the alignment system to be completely optional. Using paladins as an example it was brought up that doing good can have an evil outcome through no fault of the paladin. In your example, this would be the case either way - the one exception being he knows providing the information will be responsible for the evil outcome of his sister's death. While evil may still be the outcome if he withholds the information, it is not guaranteed.
A potential catch 22 either way, but also a good act either way.
Though the exact words and strictures of the Oath of Devotion vary, paladins of this oath share these tenets.
Honesty. Don’t lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.
Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise.
Compassion. Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom.
Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.
Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
It is an interesting choice. The pally isn’t supposed to lie (at least this one) but by lying, he would fulfill his vow to protect the weak (assuming his sister is weak and in need of protection). Maybe the paladin makes a promise, to himself, or his god or whoever, that he’s going to tell this lie for the greater good, but he will find some way to atone, since he did break one of his vows.
There are also ways to have your cake and eat it too. The paladin could simply truthfully say to his superior that he will not give that piece of information, and is willing to be punished for this, but that nothing will change his mind.
This way he doesn't lie, and still gets to protect his sister. Depending on the trust he has in his superior, he could go as far as saying that the truth would hurt someone and help no one, and is best forgotten.
For my character lying by omission is still lying. Sneakily this fact makes me kinda proud cause I have seen so many "gray" paladins lately that I wanted to be the original deal. Not to say that gray paladins don't have a place but they seem to have become the norm these days.
My character needs to be a person and not a set of numbers and having lost his parents and other sibling in an undead attack session 1, he only has his sister left. So he knows her origin is not the best (she is a thiefling) but she has always been honest and truthful to him, even when she knew it wasn't in her best interest.
Hence why I wanted to hear how other people looked at it cause I have a point of view but having several and thinking about it, is always better.
I want to play devil's advocate and suggest you tell your superior. Not only are you bound not to lie, but apparently, you're also in a chain of command. If your in-game sister's blood relation to the villain suddenly becomes relevant to the plot (and I'm assuming that you've seen at least one TV show or movie in your life and realize that of course it will), your commander may not only need that information, he will certainly also find out that you had it and didn't give it to him.
The problem is, as you say, that if the information gets out, your sister may be in danger. Do you have some reason to suspect that you have leaks in your order or that you can't trust your superior? Will she be in danger from your order because she's a tiefling? Can you move her somewhere safe and then tell your superior what you know, but refuse to tell him/her where your sister is without reassurances?
My superior is my liege lord and not a paladin. When he finds out that my sister is a part of the master plan of the (current) bad guy (we have this confirmed) than his natural reaction might be to remove the risk from the equation. It is this risk / high probability which is causing my character to have doubts.
For him, she has done no wrong and hiding her from him is, nigh impossible since magic will be involved to track her down once the truth comes out. For now, my view is to go along with what you say and tell him the truth and try to convince him that to proactively kill somebody who has done no wrong, is in itself an evil act.
Should that happen, I can see my character leaving his service and not supporting the current war effort any more. Than again, that would cause untold thousands to suffer, so will cause another huge mental debate about what is the right thing to do. An oath taken as a paladin, is after all not something you just easily discard for convenience sake.
This is the kind of question that makes for great palladalladingdong play. The character's Oath is being tested either way - does he allow an innocent life to come to violent harm, or does he uphold his fealty to his liege lord? The decision will likely haunt him no matter which way he goes, which makes it exactly the sort of moral quandary that palladalladingdongs are supposed to exist to enable. Heh, you don't get Shiny God Powerz for free.
What you're going to have to decide is which part of their Oath your character values most highly, and what he's willing to sacrifice to maintain it. Simply saying "I cannot give you an answer, because doing so would break my oath" isn't good enough, because simply the fact that you've said that much would allow an intelligent superior to work out what you're hiding and I'm assuming your character would know that. He has to conceal the fact that anything is amiss at all, which goes against both Honesty and Duty. Reporting truthfully, however, would go against both Honor and Compassion in that you have directly caused the death of an innocent you could have protected.
Palladalladingdongs who trend more Lawful than Good would say that you swore an oath to your liege lord, and that valuing your own judgment above your sworn superior's shows not only dishonesty and dereliction of duty, but also a deep disrespect for the chain of command you swore to obey. It's your sworn duty to report information like this to your superiors. Heavily Lawful palladalladingdongs would likely state that any action those superiors took based on that information is their own burden to bear and that you, as the dutiful subordinate simply reporting information, bear no blame for what the higher-ups do with that information.
Which will do them a lot of good, of course, when they're kept awake at night by the memory of their sister's dying screams.
Palladalladingdongs who trend more Good would keep the information to themselves, reasoning that their Oath commands them to do the greatest good and inflict the least harm. Reporting a meaningless connection that would cause the death of an innocent results in no good and some very close to home harm, and in no way improves the level of Goodness in the world. Such palladalladingdongs could claim that the stain on their honor and their Oath from being caught this way is theirs to bear - they shoulder the burden quietly and atone in their own way, accepting that the harm to them is better than harm to their innocent sister or allowing their superiors to do evil through overzealous caution.
Whichever way you pick, it'll be excellent roleplaying to see how it plays out. Good luck in your upcoming games!
I'd suggest the Paladin tells the truth. Based on how you're describing them, it's what they should do. But they would come prepared with reasons why the sister can't just be killed. Ideally with a plan on how to prevent the sister from getting involved with the baddy or stop the baddy from using them, or whatever the risk is.
Dunno, I think in this case, ratting out the sister is the cowardly move. It's hiding behind a rule (tell the exact truth) to avoid doing the right thing (protecting the innocent) because doing the right thing is harder (you now have to contend with lying to your boss, risking being found out, etc.)
The problem here is that the Oath of Devotion prevents you from lying.
This being said, it also requires you to "Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them", which should apply to the sister here.
If you want to treat your oath seriously, you need to find a way to follow both of these principles. And there's no way to do it without any consequence. I would personally fall on my sword and tell my superior that there are some things I won't tell him, and he should punish me as he sees fit. OP decided to go for full truth, but to ask his sister be spared. These are both (IMO) ways that lets him follows his oath properly.
The person is innocent and has done no wrong. They are not conspiring with the BBEG, they don't owe allegiance, they don't work with him. Some information has come to light that she may be intended to play a role in the plan of the BBEG. Is this information accurate? Has the BBEG spread this information in order to distract from his true goals or perhaps get his enemies to perform some evil acts so he can say "Look! They are no better than I, they slaughter innocents". Or maybe the blood line may be the only way to defeat the BBEG's plan and he wants the opponents to kill her .. what irony! :)
The paladin is apparently afraid that his liege lord will have this innocent killed to remove the risk. Is the liege lord evil? Why would a paladin of devotion give their oath to such a heinous creature whose first reaction is to slaughter innocents who may be a part of some "evil plot".
You haven't given enough background (and it really makes no difference that this is his sister), if the paladin truly believes that his liege lord will slaughter innocents then perhaps he is working for the wrong guy. Unless of course the paladin himself is evil or neutral. I would expect a good aligned character to be looking for a solution that doesn't involve slaughtering an innocent over a possible role they may play in some plot by the BBEG.
Anyway, I think the moral issues here are a lot deeper than a paladin deciding to lie to protect an innocent ... if that is required then there is far more wrong than just the paladin lying.
P.S. Not lying does not require you to tell all you know. If asked directly, the paladin could say that they won't answer. If asked why he can explain that he thinks his liege lord is evil and will perform evil acts if given the information.
My Character confessed to his liege lord the truth about his sister and explained why executing somebody for something they might allegedly be involved in/with is for him unacceptable. My liege lord is a LN fighter type who puts the law above all and has sworn an oath to defend the land we live in. The explanation sufficed and my sister is at this moment in time alive and well.
It was fun and nice to see the response from the community regarding these subjects as they are for me, what makes any player character a 3d being instead of merely a race for powers and abilities.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Est Sularus oth Mithas
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Greetings,
I want a second opinion on this.
My character has gotten some information which if it spreads most likely will cause the death of his in-game sister even though she has committed no wrong.
It has to do with her ancestry and her relation (by blood) to the big baddy (at the moment) in our campaign.
So he is considering lying to his superior regarding his by not talking about it (lying by omission). He feels horrible about doing that, but sentencing her to death while she has done no wrong also feels horribly wrong. So it's like choosing between two evils. For me it's part of what makes a paladin 3d instead of just a bunch of numbers but I'd like other people their opinion on it.
How do you guys look at that? What should be the consequences if any, except a guilty conscience?
- posted this also in the paladin forum but since not everybody checks that forum I also posted it here -
Est Sularus oth Mithas
Mechanically, there would be no consequences besides a guilty conscience.
What you’re character would do is up to you.
Every so often there is an interesting alignment discussion on the Discord channel. Lots of people consider the alignment system to be completely optional. Using paladins as an example it was brought up that doing good can have an evil outcome through no fault of the paladin. In your example, this would be the case either way - the one exception being he knows providing the information will be responsible for the evil outcome of his sister's death. While evil may still be the outcome if he withholds the information, it is not guaranteed.
A potential catch 22 either way, but also a good act either way.
It has nothing to do with alignment.
TENETS OF DEVOTION
Though the exact words and strictures of the Oath of Devotion vary, paladins of this oath share these tenets.
Honesty. Don’t lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.
Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise.
Compassion. Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom.
Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.
Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
It is an interesting choice. The pally isn’t supposed to lie (at least this one) but by lying, he would fulfill his vow to protect the weak (assuming his sister is weak and in need of protection). Maybe the paladin makes a promise, to himself, or his god or whoever, that he’s going to tell this lie for the greater good, but he will find some way to atone, since he did break one of his vows.
Thanks guys for all the feedback and thinking about how it would work :)
Est Sularus oth Mithas
There are also ways to have your cake and eat it too. The paladin could simply truthfully say to his superior that he will not give that piece of information, and is willing to be punished for this, but that nothing will change his mind.
This way he doesn't lie, and still gets to protect his sister. Depending on the trust he has in his superior, he could go as far as saying that the truth would hurt someone and help no one, and is best forgotten.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
I don't think lying by omission is a violation of the oath in the first place. If pressed about the subject, he can simply say "I won't answer that."
For my character lying by omission is still lying. Sneakily this fact makes me kinda proud cause I have seen so many "gray" paladins lately that I wanted to be the original deal. Not to say that gray paladins don't have a place but they seem to have become the norm these days.
My character needs to be a person and not a set of numbers and having lost his parents and other sibling in an undead attack session 1, he only has his sister left. So he knows her origin is not the best (she is a thiefling) but she has always been honest and truthful to him, even when she knew it wasn't in her best interest.
Hence why I wanted to hear how other people looked at it cause I have a point of view but having several and thinking about it, is always better.
Est Sularus oth Mithas
I want to play devil's advocate and suggest you tell your superior. Not only are you bound not to lie, but apparently, you're also in a chain of command. If your in-game sister's blood relation to the villain suddenly becomes relevant to the plot (and I'm assuming that you've seen at least one TV show or movie in your life and realize that of course it will), your commander may not only need that information, he will certainly also find out that you had it and didn't give it to him.
The problem is, as you say, that if the information gets out, your sister may be in danger. Do you have some reason to suspect that you have leaks in your order or that you can't trust your superior? Will she be in danger from your order because she's a tiefling? Can you move her somewhere safe and then tell your superior what you know, but refuse to tell him/her where your sister is without reassurances?
Greetings Tim,
My superior is my liege lord and not a paladin. When he finds out that my sister is a part of the master plan of the (current) bad guy (we have this confirmed) than his natural reaction might be to remove the risk from the equation. It is this risk / high probability which is causing my character to have doubts.
For him, she has done no wrong and hiding her from him is, nigh impossible since magic will be involved to track her down once the truth comes out.
For now, my view is to go along with what you say and tell him the truth and try to convince him that to proactively kill somebody who has done no wrong, is in itself an evil act.
Should that happen, I can see my character leaving his service and not supporting the current war effort any more. Than again, that would cause untold thousands to suffer, so will cause another huge mental debate about what is the right thing to do. An oath taken as a paladin, is after all not something you just easily discard for convenience sake.
Est Sularus oth Mithas
This is the kind of question that makes for great palladalladingdong play. The character's Oath is being tested either way - does he allow an innocent life to come to violent harm, or does he uphold his fealty to his liege lord? The decision will likely haunt him no matter which way he goes, which makes it exactly the sort of moral quandary that palladalladingdongs are supposed to exist to enable. Heh, you don't get Shiny God Powerz for free.
What you're going to have to decide is which part of their Oath your character values most highly, and what he's willing to sacrifice to maintain it. Simply saying "I cannot give you an answer, because doing so would break my oath" isn't good enough, because simply the fact that you've said that much would allow an intelligent superior to work out what you're hiding and I'm assuming your character would know that. He has to conceal the fact that anything is amiss at all, which goes against both Honesty and Duty. Reporting truthfully, however, would go against both Honor and Compassion in that you have directly caused the death of an innocent you could have protected.
Palladalladingdongs who trend more Lawful than Good would say that you swore an oath to your liege lord, and that valuing your own judgment above your sworn superior's shows not only dishonesty and dereliction of duty, but also a deep disrespect for the chain of command you swore to obey. It's your sworn duty to report information like this to your superiors. Heavily Lawful palladalladingdongs would likely state that any action those superiors took based on that information is their own burden to bear and that you, as the dutiful subordinate simply reporting information, bear no blame for what the higher-ups do with that information.
Which will do them a lot of good, of course, when they're kept awake at night by the memory of their sister's dying screams.
Palladalladingdongs who trend more Good would keep the information to themselves, reasoning that their Oath commands them to do the greatest good and inflict the least harm. Reporting a meaningless connection that would cause the death of an innocent results in no good and some very close to home harm, and in no way improves the level of Goodness in the world. Such palladalladingdongs could claim that the stain on their honor and their Oath from being caught this way is theirs to bear - they shoulder the burden quietly and atone in their own way, accepting that the harm to them is better than harm to their innocent sister or allowing their superiors to do evil through overzealous caution.
Whichever way you pick, it'll be excellent roleplaying to see how it plays out. Good luck in your upcoming games!
Please do not contact or message me.
I'd suggest the Paladin tells the truth. Based on how you're describing them, it's what they should do. But they would come prepared with reasons why the sister can't just be killed. Ideally with a plan on how to prevent the sister from getting involved with the baddy or stop the baddy from using them, or whatever the risk is.
... or a plan to use the sister to get to the BBEG.
Dunno, I think in this case, ratting out the sister is the cowardly move. It's hiding behind a rule (tell the exact truth) to avoid doing the right thing (protecting the innocent) because doing the right thing is harder (you now have to contend with lying to your boss, risking being found out, etc.)
The problem here is that the Oath of Devotion prevents you from lying.
This being said, it also requires you to "Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them", which should apply to the sister here.
If you want to treat your oath seriously, you need to find a way to follow both of these principles. And there's no way to do it without any consequence. I would personally fall on my sword and tell my superior that there are some things I won't tell him, and he should punish me as he sees fit. OP decided to go for full truth, but to ask his sister be spared. These are both (IMO) ways that lets him follows his oath properly.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
Well, perhaps consider it this way.
The person is innocent and has done no wrong. They are not conspiring with the BBEG, they don't owe allegiance, they don't work with him. Some information has come to light that she may be intended to play a role in the plan of the BBEG. Is this information accurate? Has the BBEG spread this information in order to distract from his true goals or perhaps get his enemies to perform some evil acts so he can say "Look! They are no better than I, they slaughter innocents". Or maybe the blood line may be the only way to defeat the BBEG's plan and he wants the opponents to kill her .. what irony! :)
The paladin is apparently afraid that his liege lord will have this innocent killed to remove the risk. Is the liege lord evil? Why would a paladin of devotion give their oath to such a heinous creature whose first reaction is to slaughter innocents who may be a part of some "evil plot".
You haven't given enough background (and it really makes no difference that this is his sister), if the paladin truly believes that his liege lord will slaughter innocents then perhaps he is working for the wrong guy. Unless of course the paladin himself is evil or neutral. I would expect a good aligned character to be looking for a solution that doesn't involve slaughtering an innocent over a possible role they may play in some plot by the BBEG.
Anyway, I think the moral issues here are a lot deeper than a paladin deciding to lie to protect an innocent ... if that is required then there is far more wrong than just the paladin lying.
P.S. Not lying does not require you to tell all you know. If asked directly, the paladin could say that they won't answer. If asked why he can explain that he thinks his liege lord is evil and will perform evil acts if given the information.
OP already mentioned that his character considers lying by omission a lie, so not saying anything isn't an option.
You don't have to be evil to be willing to sacrifice one person, if that means saving everyone. As a lord, you kinda have to be the "big picture" guy.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
Thanks guys for all your feedback.
My Character confessed to his liege lord the truth about his sister and explained why executing somebody for something they might allegedly be involved in/with is for him unacceptable. My liege lord is a LN fighter type who puts the law above all and has sworn an oath to defend the land we live in. The explanation sufficed and my sister is at this moment in time alive and well.
It was fun and nice to see the response from the community regarding these subjects as they are for me, what makes any player character a 3d being instead of merely a race for powers and abilities.
Est Sularus oth Mithas