I run a milestone style of progression and was wondering if level 20 is actually something that should be obtainable or something gained. I'm asking if level 20 is possible without the help of an outside force or something. I feel as things get harder and harder to fight there may be a cap to ones ability. Unless level 20 is that cap, then I guess in a way I can better understand how they obtain it. It just seems that the threat must be world ending.
Whenever I ponder on the attainability of Level 20, I always try and think of the big NPCs throughout D&D. NPCs like Mordenkainen, or Laeral Silverhand, what level are they? At fist thought, I would say they must be level 30 or 40. But in regards to the rules, they must have hit 20 and everything after that is epic boons and such. Think of it this way, training real world can take you so far and then experience takes you the rest. So maybe level 20 is the peak of training we all can attain and experience after that adds all the other skills, boons, renown, expertise that makes them epic NPCs.
Characters at lv20 are basically demigods, a fighter could easily go 6V1 against some soldiers, and come out winning without too much struggle. And that's saying nothing of wizards and sorcerer who can literally rewrite reality, or cleric who have litteral gods on speed-dial. So yes, for characters of those levels, threats will be immensely powerful people, dragons are the first thing that comes to mind, but if an ancient dragon sets its lair somewhere, you might just want to move. A lich, I think, is a better example of a high-level vilain: it's smart, it's nasty, and it usually comes with plans of conquest and/or destruction.
This being said, using the milestone system, i would probably use that level20 to signify the last stretch of the journey. The enemy should be known, the troops are ready, and the final showdown is closing in.
(don't get them to lv20 just for one session, or worse, for one fight though, the deserved that lv20, they should get to play around at that power level a bit)
Do you think level 20 is something obtainable through constant training? My player is saying he will just train when the campaign is over to reach level 20, alone I might add. If this is possible, wouldn't that just mean players just say we take how ever long it takes to reach level 20, and then continue. I know costs are a factor there, but if they were level 14 and already had the admiration of many people, this may not be an issue.
So if I am understanding this right, a player wants to just jump ahead to level 20? As a DM, in the end its up to you. RAW states you must level via the milestone method or by earning EXP. But if you want that to happen then you have control. If you are running a adventure that is designed for a certain level range, that player would find that its not much fun being level 20 fighting a handful of monsters designed to fight level 14s.
Do you think level 20 is something obtainable through constant training? My player is saying he will just train when the campaign is over to reach level 20, alone I might add. If this is possible, wouldn't that just mean players just say we take how ever long it takes to reach level 20, and then continue. I know costs are a factor there, but if they were level 14 and already had the admiration of many people, this may not be an issue.
That's a weird situation here, what's the point of hitting level 20 if the campaign is over and, I assume, he's not gonna play that character again ?
I wouldn't give XP for "training on your own", and I wouldn't try to make sense of the system of levelling/training.
And I would say, no, not everyone can reach lv20. But the point where a character's growth stops should be decided by the DM and their story.
Then I would leave it open: he says his character will keep training to reach the pinnacle of what is possible, and that is it. No need to bring game terms into that.
And maybe you'll met his character again in the next campaign, and he's only lv19, and looking for new ways to train, because he's heard of people being able to do things he can't quite manage yet.
Sure, as an epilogue, I think that's fine. No reason not to let him have that, assuming the campaign ends in a spot where that's plausible for that character.
I'd put a slight twist on it though. Because I don't think those high levels are something you can easily obtain JUST by training out-of-combat. I don't imagine a level 18 fighter sparring with fighting buddies would make the leaps necessary to get to 19 and 20. Make sure his character ends in a situation where it's plausible he'll have the challenges necessary to get the last level - i.e. as a martial class maybe he ends as a world-renowned champion that lots of challengers are going to come challenge, or if he's a wizard have him end by discovering the location of some trove of ancient knowledge for him to study, or something. So "I train and reach 20" is an appropriate epilogue.
Overall, level 20 is designed in-game to be attainable. It's tough to not die and get there, but you can get to it with the same mechanisms you use to get from 1 to 2.
Beyond level 20, though, there's no mechanics for further advancement that are reliable. It's the ceiling. Beyond that, you really have to get something special.
It all depends on perspective. As an example, online gaming, the saying is "the game starts at level cap". If you have much more to offer your players as far as questing adventures, rewards and character development go, level 20 is still quite playable. As was pointed out by DocAllanon, the system provides for a form of progression at level 20.
I run a milestone style of progression and was wondering if level 20 is actually something that should be obtainable or something gained. I'm asking if level 20 is possible without the help of an outside force or something. I feel as things get harder and harder to fight there may be a cap to ones ability. Unless level 20 is that cap, then I guess in a way I can better understand how they obtain it. It just seems that the threat must be world ending.
Whenever I ponder on the attainability of Level 20, I always try and think of the big NPCs throughout D&D. NPCs like Mordenkainen, or Laeral Silverhand, what level are they? At fist thought, I would say they must be level 30 or 40. But in regards to the rules, they must have hit 20 and everything after that is epic boons and such. Think of it this way, training real world can take you so far and then experience takes you the rest. So maybe level 20 is the peak of training we all can attain and experience after that adds all the other skills, boons, renown, expertise that makes them epic NPCs.
Characters at lv20 are basically demigods, a fighter could easily go 6V1 against some soldiers, and come out winning without too much struggle. And that's saying nothing of wizards and sorcerer who can literally rewrite reality, or cleric who have litteral gods on speed-dial. So yes, for characters of those levels, threats will be immensely powerful people, dragons are the first thing that comes to mind, but if an ancient dragon sets its lair somewhere, you might just want to move. A lich, I think, is a better example of a high-level vilain: it's smart, it's nasty, and it usually comes with plans of conquest and/or destruction.
This being said, using the milestone system, i would probably use that level20 to signify the last stretch of the journey. The enemy should be known, the troops are ready, and the final showdown is closing in.
(don't get them to lv20 just for one session, or worse, for one fight though, the deserved that lv20, they should get to play around at that power level a bit)
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I'm afraid my response was more philosophical than anything else. Sorry.
Do you think level 20 is something obtainable through constant training? My player is saying he will just train when the campaign is over to reach level 20, alone I might add. If this is possible, wouldn't that just mean players just say we take how ever long it takes to reach level 20, and then continue. I know costs are a factor there, but if they were level 14 and already had the admiration of many people, this may not be an issue.
So if I am understanding this right, a player wants to just jump ahead to level 20? As a DM, in the end its up to you. RAW states you must level via the milestone method or by earning EXP. But if you want that to happen then you have control. If you are running a adventure that is designed for a certain level range, that player would find that its not much fun being level 20 fighting a handful of monsters designed to fight level 14s.
That's a weird situation here, what's the point of hitting level 20 if the campaign is over and, I assume, he's not gonna play that character again ?
I wouldn't give XP for "training on your own", and I wouldn't try to make sense of the system of levelling/training.
And I would say, no, not everyone can reach lv20. But the point where a character's growth stops should be decided by the DM and their story.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
Its more of an epilogue, like what his character would do after the story is finished
Then I would leave it open: he says his character will keep training to reach the pinnacle of what is possible, and that is it. No need to bring game terms into that.
And maybe you'll met his character again in the next campaign, and he's only lv19, and looking for new ways to train, because he's heard of people being able to do things he can't quite manage yet.
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Sure, as an epilogue, I think that's fine. No reason not to let him have that, assuming the campaign ends in a spot where that's plausible for that character.
I'd put a slight twist on it though. Because I don't think those high levels are something you can easily obtain JUST by training out-of-combat. I don't imagine a level 18 fighter sparring with fighting buddies would make the leaps necessary to get to 19 and 20. Make sure his character ends in a situation where it's plausible he'll have the challenges necessary to get the last level - i.e. as a martial class maybe he ends as a world-renowned champion that lots of challengers are going to come challenge, or if he's a wizard have him end by discovering the location of some trove of ancient knowledge for him to study, or something. So "I train and reach 20" is an appropriate epilogue.
Overall, level 20 is designed in-game to be attainable. It's tough to not die and get there, but you can get to it with the same mechanisms you use to get from 1 to 2.
Beyond level 20, though, there's no mechanics for further advancement that are reliable. It's the ceiling. Beyond that, you really have to get something special.
It all depends on perspective. As an example, online gaming, the saying is "the game starts at level cap". If you have much more to offer your players as far as questing adventures, rewards and character development go, level 20 is still quite playable. As was pointed out by DocAllanon, the system provides for a form of progression at level 20.