One of my players is annoyed because he built an ungodly forge priest tank. He is level 6 and now has an ac of like 23. Combine that with shield master his ac is near 30. So i have one guy beating on him and then i just make my other creatures push past take the opportunity attack from him to start getting other players. He came to me today and said he wants to reroll cause he feels i'm just ignoring his guy and not treating him like a tank. I really have no idea what to do. I am at wits end because the whole group in general hates plot and ignore story hooks but that's a problem for another day.
The AC numbers seem high unless you've homebrewed some stuff in, but the main problem is that your player wants you to run enemies like a video game. There's no "aggro" in D&D. Smart enemies will react to the best of their abilities/knowledge. There are builds that are designed to lock down enemies (Cavalier with sentinel/polearm feats), but just being a hard to hit PC doesn't mean all enemies will only attack one person. Biggest thing is trying to land the message that you're in charge of enemy tactics, and that they will fight how you feel they should to the best of yours/ their abilities.
There are several ways to get around this have the enemies attack him with spells that require DC saves. or AOE attacks that automatically hit like fireball. another option is alot weaker mobs will be better then a few stronger mobs as they have more oppertunites to attack
also have the fights make sense. if the enemies have low intelligence then it doesn't matter if they try to bash themselves against him
while the monsters with higher intelligence will be able to understand hitting him is very hard and it is easier to target the other players.
I have to ask, how does he have an AC of nearly 30. Because the best I can work it out is a Warforged in heavy armour form is 19 as of level six, plus a shield is 21, plus the two AC bonuses you get with forged is 23 and plus shield of faith is 25. So where has the other 5 come from as shield master doesn't effect your AC. Did you homebrew some items for him or let him have some items that improve his AC even more?
But as others have said, unless the enemies have low intelligence, which encounters at level six aren't as common, they aren't going to run at the nearest enemy. They are going to be smart and attack who they can, esp if they are getting hurt from other attacks
I'll echo Sigvard's aggro bit - enemies with modest intelligence will know not to go after the guy that won't die, and instead take out the others that may be buffing him or otherwise sniping at them. So, sounds like a bit of a whine fest on the part of that particular player, as well as a general misunderstanding about how the game can work.
Otherwise, sounds like you have a bit of a murder-hobo/hack-and-slash group at your table. I don't have too much experience with that, but I think a session zero would be helpful so everyone in your group is on the same page with what everyone wants. Asking what your players want to do when they meet up for game sessions will let you know what sort of game would be best to run.
You don't have to run a hack-and-slash campaign if that doesn't interest you. As the DM, you have to be just as much, if not more, invested in the game you're running than the players have to be in a game their playing. If you're bored with just fighting all the time, then either don't DM and have someone else do it, or find a new group, maybe?
One of my players is annoyed because he built an ungodly forge priest tank. He is level 6 and now has an ac of like 23. Combine that with shield master his ac is near 30. So i have one guy beating on him and then i just make my other creatures push past take the opportunity attack from him to start getting other players. He came to me today and said he wants to reroll cause he feels i'm just ignoring his guy and not treating him like a tank. I really have no idea what to do. I am at wits end because the whole group in general hates plot and ignore story hooks but that's a problem for another day.
You'll want to double check the Shield Master feat, as it does not add anything to AC.
You may also want to suggest the Sentinel feat to him, it does a significant amount towards helping him feel more like a tank, even if you want monsters running past him. It will let him stop at least the occasional one in it's tracks.
I have brought this up the two main players treat dnd like a video game. call me a shitty person but i gate keep by saying and hinting dont do that because the challenge is much harder like a group of 5 at level 10 may handle it better not three level 6. One of my players constantly brings up he thought dnd was being able to do whatever he wanted to. It kinda boils down to two different games are being played. Its not fun for me to throw enemies at you and i can't even scratch you so i spend 5-10 mins just narrating misses rather than epic fights.They have slaughtered an entire town to keep from getting arrested before though so i don't know really what to do. The latest encounter was an armainte 2 bone devils and 6 green abishis. and an entire "City" after they cleared that wave. I am going to have him send me a copy of his lions den character and look it over hes a fire genasi. I never made a forge cleric so maybe there's misinterpretation of different things.
You could start attacking him with spells and effects and other things that don't target AC. Wouldn't it be fun to dominate him for a bit and try to make the rest of the party hit him.
And +1 to those who've said a 30 AC at level 6 (or any level really) does not seem possible.
You could start attacking him with spells and effects and other things that don't target AC. Wouldn't it be fun to dominate him for a bit and try to make the rest of the party hit him.
And +1 to those who've said a 30 AC at level 6 (or any level really) does not seem possible.
It would but he casts protection from good and evil and hes immune to such things. i tried...i made the monk attack him though.
Protection from good and evil only helps when the effect is coming from one of the listed enemy types celestial, undead, etc. Have a humanoid wizard do it.
You should have a campaign page set up and have them join it so, you have access to review their characters. Almost sounds like you are playing on Discord? I have found that a lot of people think that characters that are melee will get attacked while range can can just safely sit back. As was pointed out, enemy intelligence and tactics may counter that idea. You seem to be running the game with the right idea, you just need to make sure the players can grasp these simple concepts.
1) Here's a phenomenal blog someone has taken into consideration each stat (like a high con monster mentality-wise are Brutish and front-liners etc) and Volo and other MM description to work an actual personality to each monster. Battle tactics, why a monster would fight to the death, why a monster will NOT fight to the death and run.
2) taking into consideration the above and monster's behavior, compare it to PC behavior. If you presented them with an enemy who was immune to fire would your players continue to throw fireballs at them? Granted your players seem stubborn and may throw 1 or 2 extra ones just in case but eventually they will change tactics.
Same thing with monsters. "They're people too". If they keep pummeling a specific PC & they keep missing and they're smart enough to realize WHY they're missing they will move on risking the OA attack. Again take into considerations the monster. Just like a fly will keep banging against a window wondering why they cant get through, a dog may run into it once but then look for an alternative where a human would immediately realize and act accordingly without needing the "error/test round" at all.
A goblin may attack the guy 4x then attack someone else, a wolf may attack 5x but then just run off into the woods, a smart, intelligent BBEG will see a heavily decked out guy whether or not he has witnessed his minions fail their attacks. Reading the blog for example stirges are stupid beasts (3 int) who only care about feeding. They will swarm a target but no more than 3 or 4 per person, not to prevent overwhelming a target but simply because it's less blood for them! And once they fill up (draining 10hp) he says that they're likely to fly away even provoking an OA cuz they're dumb animals and aren't hungry any more.
3) as others have said, launch other attacks whether they're saving throws or what not. He cant be invincible, especially with 5th edition balancing and at freegen level 6. Even with spells, out of the 3 heavy stats (dex, con & wis) he cant have excellent saving throws on ALL of them AND have crazy AC.
As others have said, use dndbeyond. It's a possibility either you or the player is misinterpreting or miscalculating something. It's easy. the builder does it all for you. Additionally create a campaign and make them join it (dont let them say they dont want to) I dont know if they're trying to pull something on you or just not understanding a rule or spell correctly but this will give you access to confirm it.
As a DM I know you have a lot on your plate already but I really advise looking over each class, their features and spells and read them WELL. A perfect example, shield mastery does NOT add any more AC. Knowing this allows you to correct this. It may be unintentional or not, but even my own DM for our first group either didnt read some things or misread it. He attacked us twice misreading a 2 handed attack for 2 attacks (just a simple example, there were other things too but see what I mean?)
4) regarding your players who said "this is dnd I thought we can do what we want"... simple answer - you CAN 'do' whatever you want, this isnt a video game where there's a map limit or no button for scratching your butt.. but doing what you want in no way means that there is no CONSEQUENCE. Your players CAN scratch their butt, your players CAN jump into a portal with 50,000 angry demons but they WILL get brutally destroyed no matter what they do, your players CAN kill an entire town and even succeed but the kingdom will hear about this and send another, even stronger band of adventurers to deal with this threat against the kingdom.
Unlike a video game you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT but also unlike a video game there will be consequences and affects.
5) its completely fine if you're group is a bunch of murder hobos. The issue is that you as the DM isnt enjoying it as much as they are, just like a DM who forcibly rails a specific game that the players aren't happy with. It's hard to find a happy medium but necessary. I would even request of having one of the players being the DM for the next game, even if its a tiny campaign even if it's a one shot.
It puts them in your shoes and you in theirs. They will get the DM perspective and realize what it actually takes to run a game AND deal with murder hobos as well.. and you get to know what it it feels to be a player, to progress your character and individual skills (as opposed to just using stronger enemies), heck you may even enjoy being a murder hobo yourself!
Sounds like 4e would be a better system for their playing style, tbh. Since every class in 4e is built on powers, they all tend to be equal and it works like a pen & paper MMO with cool downs that help you manage battles a lot better. You would need to use Roll20 or a virtual tabletop for it since it's heavily reliant on maps & minis/tokens.
I have brought this up the two main players treat dnd like a video game. call me a shitty person but i gate keep by saying and hinting dont do that because the challenge is much harder like a group of 5 at level 10 may handle it better not three level 6. One of my players constantly brings up he thought dnd was being able to do whatever he wanted to. It kinda boils down to two different games are being played. Its not fun for me to throw enemies at you and i can't even scratch you so i spend 5-10 mins just narrating misses rather than epic fights.They have slaughtered an entire town to keep from getting arrested before though so i don't know really what to do. The latest encounter was an armainte 2 bone devils and 6 green abishis. and an entire "City" after they cleared that wave. I am going to have him send me a copy of his lions den character and look it over hes a fire genasi. I never made a forge cleric so maybe there's misinterpretation of different things.
I would say find a different group. Calling your dm sh**y for not letting them do what they want I mean...WHAT.
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The 6 most hated words in all of d&d history: make me a dex saving throw .
Well ones my best friend weve run into this problem before see my post about lore and blood hunters. i wasn't stating the problem as eloquently as i should have. (never post in anger.) THe problems with the group are not insurmountable. like i spend alot of time working out cool ideas they just take a shite on cause they dont like the npc. Classic example that made me stop dming last time for this group. I knew they were coming into a town so i had the main problem of the town be warring families the tensions having ramped up to the point were there are daily brawls between the houses. One thought the other responsible for a murdered child the other for the disappearance of another. The sheriff of the town would just let the fight go on drag off the two main instigators then go back to trying to do his job. The solution they worked out was the sheriff was not doing a good job kidnap some from each side and ransom them off. i was slacked jawed at this and then one was killing them and bringing them back as zombies. I am not good at countering extreme weirdness they do. I should expect it.
This plot is lifted form a game i love eternal darkness. the elder gods are corrupting the world and they were chosen to save it. Someones next in the rotation to dm and i am not wanting to play because it is a murder hobo campaign. im all for moral grey areas but from get go oh your evil just isn't my thing. I like my friends but as a dnd group it just isn't working i think.
I looked at tanky boy character he has cast off armor which is 20 ac. forge priest get plus 1 ac at 6 while wearing heavy armor. shield another plus 2 and he can make ad plus 1 to a non-magical item. that gives us 23 plus 5 as a reaction cause he casts shield. its incredibly hard to hurt him. Now looking at his spells i see there's no issue with protection because there's a lot of undead being thrown in and the monsters from the last encounter were fiends devils but fiends.Im open to letting him change im going to talk to him tonight.
Is Cast Off Armor some kind of homebrew thing? I've not heard of it.
And shield only lasts until the end of the round. Doesn't he have something better to do with his spell slots? Maybe give them more fights between long rests so he has to think twice about whether or not to burn a slot.
And if they massacred a town, it seems that would draw the attention of someone higher up the food chain. They may be tough, but when the duke send 20 of his best knight and war mages, Or the king sends that ancient dragon that owes him a favor, they'll maybe realize their actions have consequences. You don't even have to kill them, just arrest them, and then have them be sentenced to earn their penance some way or another.
Is Cast Off Armor some kind of homebrew thing? I've not heard of it.
And shield only lasts until the end of the round. Doesn't he have something better to do with his spell slots? Maybe give them more fights between long rests so he has to think twice about whether or not to burn a slot.
And if they massacred a town, it seems that would draw the attention of someone higher up the food chain. They may be tough, but when the duke send 20 of his best knight and war mages, Or the king sends that ancient dragon that owes him a favor, they'll maybe realize their actions have consequences. You don't even have to kill them, just arrest them, and then have them be sentenced to earn their penance some way or another.
Cast-Off Armor is not homebrew, but it also confers no AC bonus, so the max it should grant is 18 for plate armor. If it's 20 AC, that is homebrewed.
I'm afraid I can't help you if these are your friends. The advice I would give you could end your friendship.
I would be tempted to illustrate their screwed up idea of how to approach D&D by sending something obviously overpowering at them and the first guy that rolls an attack kills it in one stroke. Five minutes later, I'd do the same thing again. And five minutes after that, I'd do the same thing. Eventually they are going to say "What is going on?" And you can reply, "You said you wanted to play D&D and do anything you want. I know you want to kill overpowering monsters. So I'm helping you realize your goal."
MAYBE a light would come on in their head and they would realize the game is MORE FUN if they have to overcome a challenge at the table not just min-max their character during creation.
If a light doesn't come on, then they get to level 20 in about three sessions and have all the loot they could want and run out of ideas on how to spend it.
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One of my players is annoyed because he built an ungodly forge priest tank. He is level 6 and now has an ac of like 23. Combine that with shield master his ac is near 30. So i have one guy beating on him and then i just make my other creatures push past take the opportunity attack from him to start getting other players. He came to me today and said he wants to reroll cause he feels i'm just ignoring his guy and not treating him like a tank. I really have no idea what to do. I am at wits end because the whole group in general hates plot and ignore story hooks but that's a problem for another day.
The AC numbers seem high unless you've homebrewed some stuff in, but the main problem is that your player wants you to run enemies like a video game. There's no "aggro" in D&D. Smart enemies will react to the best of their abilities/knowledge. There are builds that are designed to lock down enemies (Cavalier with sentinel/polearm feats), but just being a hard to hit PC doesn't mean all enemies will only attack one person. Biggest thing is trying to land the message that you're in charge of enemy tactics, and that they will fight how you feel they should to the best of yours/ their abilities.
Hello Raven
There are several ways to get around this
have the enemies attack him with spells that require DC saves. or AOE attacks that automatically hit like fireball.
another option is alot weaker mobs will be better then a few stronger mobs as they have more oppertunites to attack
also have the fights make sense. if the enemies have low intelligence then it doesn't matter if they try to bash themselves against him
while the monsters with higher intelligence will be able to understand hitting him is very hard and it is easier to target the other players.
I have to ask, how does he have an AC of nearly 30. Because the best I can work it out is a Warforged in heavy armour form is 19 as of level six, plus a shield is 21, plus the two AC bonuses you get with forged is 23 and plus shield of faith is 25. So where has the other 5 come from as shield master doesn't effect your AC. Did you homebrew some items for him or let him have some items that improve his AC even more?
But as others have said, unless the enemies have low intelligence, which encounters at level six aren't as common, they aren't going to run at the nearest enemy. They are going to be smart and attack who they can, esp if they are getting hurt from other attacks
I'll echo Sigvard's aggro bit - enemies with modest intelligence will know not to go after the guy that won't die, and instead take out the others that may be buffing him or otherwise sniping at them. So, sounds like a bit of a whine fest on the part of that particular player, as well as a general misunderstanding about how the game can work.
Otherwise, sounds like you have a bit of a murder-hobo/hack-and-slash group at your table. I don't have too much experience with that, but I think a session zero would be helpful so everyone in your group is on the same page with what everyone wants. Asking what your players want to do when they meet up for game sessions will let you know what sort of game would be best to run.
You don't have to run a hack-and-slash campaign if that doesn't interest you. As the DM, you have to be just as much, if not more, invested in the game you're running than the players have to be in a game their playing. If you're bored with just fighting all the time, then either don't DM and have someone else do it, or find a new group, maybe?
Good luck!
You'll want to double check the Shield Master feat, as it does not add anything to AC.
You may also want to suggest the Sentinel feat to him, it does a significant amount towards helping him feel more like a tank, even if you want monsters running past him. It will let him stop at least the occasional one in it's tracks.
I have brought this up the two main players treat dnd like a video game. call me a shitty person but i gate keep by saying and hinting dont do that because the challenge is much harder like a group of 5 at level 10 may handle it better not three level 6. One of my players constantly brings up he thought dnd was being able to do whatever he wanted to. It kinda boils down to two different games are being played. Its not fun for me to throw enemies at you and i can't even scratch you so i spend 5-10 mins just narrating misses rather than epic fights.They have slaughtered an entire town to keep from getting arrested before though so i don't know really what to do. The latest encounter was an armainte 2 bone devils and 6 green abishis. and an entire "City" after they cleared that wave. I am going to have him send me a copy of his lions den character and look it over hes a fire genasi. I never made a forge cleric so maybe there's misinterpretation of different things.
You could start attacking him with spells and effects and other things that don't target AC. Wouldn't it be fun to dominate him for a bit and try to make the rest of the party hit him.
And +1 to those who've said a 30 AC at level 6 (or any level really) does not seem possible.
It would but he casts protection from good and evil and hes immune to such things. i tried...i made the monk attack him though.
Protection from good and evil only helps when the effect is coming from one of the listed enemy types celestial, undead, etc. Have a humanoid wizard do it.
You should have a campaign page set up and have them join it so, you have access to review their characters. Almost sounds like you are playing on Discord? I have found that a lot of people think that characters that are melee will get attacked while range can can just safely sit back. As was pointed out, enemy intelligence and tactics may counter that idea. You seem to be running the game with the right idea, you just need to make sure the players can grasp these simple concepts.
http://themonstersknow.com/
1) Here's a phenomenal blog someone has taken into consideration each stat (like a high con monster mentality-wise are Brutish and front-liners etc) and Volo and other MM description to work an actual personality to each monster. Battle tactics, why a monster would fight to the death, why a monster will NOT fight to the death and run.
2) taking into consideration the above and monster's behavior, compare it to PC behavior. If you presented them with an enemy who was immune to fire would your players continue to throw fireballs at them? Granted your players seem stubborn and may throw 1 or 2 extra ones just in case but eventually they will change tactics.
Same thing with monsters. "They're people too". If they keep pummeling a specific PC & they keep missing and they're smart enough to realize WHY they're missing they will move on risking the OA attack. Again take into considerations the monster. Just like a fly will keep banging against a window wondering why they cant get through, a dog may run into it once but then look for an alternative where a human would immediately realize and act accordingly without needing the "error/test round" at all.
A goblin may attack the guy 4x then attack someone else, a wolf may attack 5x but then just run off into the woods, a smart, intelligent BBEG will see a heavily decked out guy whether or not he has witnessed his minions fail their attacks. Reading the blog for example stirges are stupid beasts (3 int) who only care about feeding. They will swarm a target but no more than 3 or 4 per person, not to prevent overwhelming a target but simply because it's less blood for them! And once they fill up (draining 10hp) he says that they're likely to fly away even provoking an OA cuz they're dumb animals and aren't hungry any more.
3) as others have said, launch other attacks whether they're saving throws or what not. He cant be invincible, especially with 5th edition balancing and at freegen level 6. Even with spells, out of the 3 heavy stats (dex, con & wis) he cant have excellent saving throws on ALL of them AND have crazy AC.
As others have said, use dndbeyond. It's a possibility either you or the player is misinterpreting or miscalculating something. It's easy. the builder does it all for you. Additionally create a campaign and make them join it (dont let them say they dont want to) I dont know if they're trying to pull something on you or just not understanding a rule or spell correctly but this will give you access to confirm it.
As a DM I know you have a lot on your plate already but I really advise looking over each class, their features and spells and read them WELL. A perfect example, shield mastery does NOT add any more AC. Knowing this allows you to correct this. It may be unintentional or not, but even my own DM for our first group either didnt read some things or misread it. He attacked us twice misreading a 2 handed attack for 2 attacks (just a simple example, there were other things too but see what I mean?)
4) regarding your players who said "this is dnd I thought we can do what we want"... simple answer - you CAN 'do' whatever you want, this isnt a video game where there's a map limit or no button for scratching your butt.. but doing what you want in no way means that there is no CONSEQUENCE. Your players CAN scratch their butt, your players CAN jump into a portal with 50,000 angry demons but they WILL get brutally destroyed no matter what they do, your players CAN kill an entire town and even succeed but the kingdom will hear about this and send another, even stronger band of adventurers to deal with this threat against the kingdom.
Unlike a video game you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT but also unlike a video game there will be consequences and affects.
5) its completely fine if you're group is a bunch of murder hobos. The issue is that you as the DM isnt enjoying it as much as they are, just like a DM who forcibly rails a specific game that the players aren't happy with. It's hard to find a happy medium but necessary. I would even request of having one of the players being the DM for the next game, even if its a tiny campaign even if it's a one shot.
It puts them in your shoes and you in theirs. They will get the DM perspective and realize what it actually takes to run a game AND deal with murder hobos as well.. and you get to know what it it feels to be a player, to progress your character and individual skills (as opposed to just using stronger enemies), heck you may even enjoy being a murder hobo yourself!
Sounds like 4e would be a better system for their playing style, tbh. Since every class in 4e is built on powers, they all tend to be equal and it works like a pen & paper MMO with cool downs that help you manage battles a lot better. You would need to use Roll20 or a virtual tabletop for it since it's heavily reliant on maps & minis/tokens.
If you still want to stick with 5e, Sly Flourish wrote a handy guide on dealing with this problem. It's also answered here on RPG Stackexchange.
Here's a quickstart of 4e if you wanted to check it out in the future.
I would say find a different group. Calling your dm sh**y for not letting them do what they want I mean...WHAT.
The 6 most hated words in all of d&d history: make me a dex saving throw .
Well ones my best friend weve run into this problem before see my post about lore and blood hunters. i wasn't stating the problem as eloquently as i should have. (never post in anger.) THe problems with the group are not insurmountable. like i spend alot of time working out cool ideas they just take a shite on cause they dont like the npc. Classic example that made me stop dming last time for this group. I knew they were coming into a town so i had the main problem of the town be warring families the tensions having ramped up to the point were there are daily brawls between the houses. One thought the other responsible for a murdered child the other for the disappearance of another. The sheriff of the town would just let the fight go on drag off the two main instigators then go back to trying to do his job. The solution they worked out was the sheriff was not doing a good job kidnap some from each side and ransom them off. i was slacked jawed at this and then one was killing them and bringing them back as zombies. I am not good at countering extreme weirdness they do. I should expect it.
This plot is lifted form a game i love eternal darkness. the elder gods are corrupting the world and they were chosen to save it. Someones next in the rotation to dm and i am not wanting to play because it is a murder hobo campaign. im all for moral grey areas but from get go oh your evil just isn't my thing. I like my friends but as a dnd group it just isn't working i think.
I looked at tanky boy character he has cast off armor which is 20 ac. forge priest get plus 1 ac at 6 while wearing heavy armor. shield another plus 2 and he can make ad plus 1 to a non-magical item. that gives us 23 plus 5 as a reaction cause he casts shield. its incredibly hard to hurt him. Now looking at his spells i see there's no issue with protection because there's a lot of undead being thrown in and the monsters from the last encounter were fiends devils but fiends.Im open to letting him change im going to talk to him tonight.
Is Cast Off Armor some kind of homebrew thing? I've not heard of it.
And shield only lasts until the end of the round. Doesn't he have something better to do with his spell slots? Maybe give them more fights between long rests so he has to think twice about whether or not to burn a slot.
And if they massacred a town, it seems that would draw the attention of someone higher up the food chain. They may be tough, but when the duke send 20 of his best knight and war mages, Or the king sends that ancient dragon that owes him a favor, they'll maybe realize their actions have consequences. You don't even have to kill them, just arrest them, and then have them be sentenced to earn their penance some way or another.
Cast-Off Armor is not homebrew, but it also confers no AC bonus, so the max it should grant is 18 for plate armor. If it's 20 AC, that is homebrewed.
How does he have the shield spell?
in my app that seems to be wrong its 19. i will be fixing it.
I'm afraid I can't help you if these are your friends. The advice I would give you could end your friendship.
I would be tempted to illustrate their screwed up idea of how to approach D&D by sending something obviously overpowering at them and the first guy that rolls an attack kills it in one stroke. Five minutes later, I'd do the same thing again. And five minutes after that, I'd do the same thing. Eventually they are going to say "What is going on?" And you can reply, "You said you wanted to play D&D and do anything you want. I know you want to kill overpowering monsters. So I'm helping you realize your goal."
MAYBE a light would come on in their head and they would realize the game is MORE FUN if they have to overcome a challenge at the table not just min-max their character during creation.
If a light doesn't come on, then they get to level 20 in about three sessions and have all the loot they could want and run out of ideas on how to spend it.