The rules don’t say much about how distance affects the perception of sounds.
The only thing I’ve found is that some spells, such as Thunderclap, say they “can be heard up to 100 feet away”.
How do you as a DM use this information to guide your rulings on using Wisdom (Perception) skill checks to detect creatures by hearing and how does it affect Surprise in your game?
For instance, you have a stealthy Ranger and Rogue that are 30 feet in front of unstealthy Fighter and Cleric. Is 30 feet enough to allow the Ranger and Rogue to surprise the enemy without the Fighter and Cleric ruining it?
If they said they were moving in separately from the others, I’d allow for the ones who bested the Perception of the guards to be considered unnoticed. Lotta good that’ll do them, though, if the others put the guards on alert. If the others forced initiative rolls, I wouldn’t allow for any surprise mechanics or advantage. Yeah, the rogue will get Sneak Attack if the target is in melee with your less stealthy party mates. That’s basic. But there’s no surprising an enemy with his sword drawn, ready for battle.
If they didn’t declare they were sneaking separately, they’re all discovered. D&D norms are the party sneaks together. No rules about that, obviously, but that’s just almost always how it happens.
If they declared they were keeping space, and some got caught, but were just being questioned by the guards, I’d allow for a chance for the sneaky ones to sneak up behind the guards. At a higher DC. But if successful, sure, they can have advantage on an attack or grapple check.
So to clarify, you follow the book, no effect on the Perception check due to distance? Would 60 feet between the groups make a difference? 100 feet? 120 feet?
So to clarify, you follow the book, no effect on the Perception check due to distance? Would 60 feet between the groups make a difference? 100 feet? 120 feet?
One of the many things not covered in the rules. same way how even though you can see people walking from a mile or so away... it’s only an issue for sight that someone’s approaching once they are within 600 feet. A little more than 1/10th of a mile
Putting a hard and fast number on perceptible distance is unreasonable. My ability to perceive is influenced by my surroundings. In a noisy room, I’m unlikely to discern voices unless they’re trying to be heard. In a forest, I’m likely to miss even close creatures because of cover. If you’ve ever gone hunting, you know how a squirrel hopping around the leaves sounds like a large deer crashing through the brush, but then you can look up and there’s a deer you feel like you should have heard coming, but never did.
Just look at the circumstances and make a reasoned judgement of the situation.
Putting a hard and fast number on perceptible distance is unreasonable. My ability to perceive is influenced by my surroundings. In a noisy room, I’m unlikely to discern voices unless they’re trying to be heard. In a forest, I’m likely to miss even close creatures because of cover. If you’ve ever gone hunting, you know how a squirrel hopping around the leaves sounds like a large deer crashing through the brush, but then you can look up and there’s a deer you feel like you should have heard coming, but never did.
Just look at the circumstances and make a reasoned judgement of the situation.
That’s what I do. I was wondering how other DMs interpret the Thunderclap and other spells that say “can be heard up tp 100 feet away” and how that shapes your judgement on hearing other things at a distance.
D&D ranges are in general unrealistically short, probably to keep map sizes practical. On the question of party stealth when the party is split up, I generally figure that being in the rear group means you arrive at any combat in round 2.
Appart from the Dungeon's Master Guide Visibility Outdoor, the sight or hearing range is not all that detailed in the rules so it will be up to DM but if not sure of the distance to start an encounter, there's always Encounter Distance Tables found in the Dungeon Master Screen.
Visibility Outdoors: When traveling outdoors, characters can see about 2 miles in any direction on a clear day, or until the point where trees, hills, or other obstructions block their view. Rain normally cuts maximum visibility down to 1 mile, and fog can cut it down to between 100 and 300 feet. On a clear day, the characters can see 40 miles if they are atop a mountain or a tall hill, or are otherwise able to look down on the area around them from a height.
Nociting Other Creatures: While exploring, characters might encounter other creatures. An important question in such a situation is who notices whom. Indoors, whether the sides can see one another usually depends on the configuration of rooms and passageways. Vision might also be limited by light sources. Outdoor visibility can be hampered by terrain, weather, and time of day. Creatures can be more likely to hear one another before they see anything. If neither side is being stealthy, creatures automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another. Otherwise, compare the Dexterity (Stealth) check results of the creatures in the group that is hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the other group, as explained in the Player's Handbook.
The rules don’t say much about how distance affects the perception of sounds.
The only thing I’ve found is that some spells, such as Thunderclap, say they “can be heard up to 100 feet away”.
How do you as a DM use this information to guide your rulings on using Wisdom (Perception) skill checks to detect creatures by hearing and how does it affect Surprise in your game?
For instance, you have a stealthy Ranger and Rogue that are 30 feet in front of unstealthy Fighter and Cleric. Is 30 feet enough to allow the Ranger and Rogue to surprise the enemy without the Fighter and Cleric ruining it?
The Dungeon Master Screen(s) (as mentioned by Frank) have a small section on audible distances that, quite frankly, should be included in an actual book, and possibly expanded on. It's a great start, and very useful to know.
Basically, when a character is trying to be quiet, they can typically only be heard 2d6 x 5ft (35ft) away, when they're at a normal noise level it's 2d6 x 10ft (70ft), and being really loud is 2d6 x 50ft (350ft). You can use this as a base / starting point and then change it up based on the situation. Let's take sneaking up on a bandit camp as an example. Is it quiet in / around the camp? Are the bandits talking / fighting / partying, or are they keeping watch? These things affect ones ability to hear sounds. So, if we take 35ft as the base range for someone to be heard when they're trying to be quiet, anything outside that range would be difficult to hear. The bandits are making noise, and not keeping watch, so they probably won't notice much sounds beyond 25ft. But the Cleric wearing Chain Mail rolled poor on Stealth, so they're making noise at a normal level. The Cleric can probably be heard within 50ft (70ft as the average for the "normal" range, with a 20ft penalty for the Bandits as they're also making noise and not paying attention).
With that in mind, the stealthy Rogue can stay 25ft from the Bandits (Stealth beat their Passive Perception, and they're trying to be quiet while approaching loud enemies), and then the Cleric would need to be at least 25ft even further back (Stealth did not beat the Bandits Passive Perception, and while they're trying to be quiet, they're failing to do so).
If the Bandits were also quiet, the Rogue could only get within 35ft before they would at least need to make another Stealth check (maybe with disadvantage for being so close), and the Cleric could only get within 70ft. If the Bandits were quiet AND alerted to potential danger / keeping guard, then the Rogue would probably only get to within 45ft, while the Cleric would only get to within about 90ft.
So, use the "Audible Distance" table on the DM Screen as a starting reference, and allow successful Stealth to be "quiet" (35ft.) while unsuccessful Stealth be "normal" volume (70ft.), and then make the audible ranges longer or shorter depending on the circumstances.
When it comes to surprise, anyone who is outside of the audible range for their own Stealth vs the enemies Perception check (or Passive Perception), and who hasn't otherwise been spotted visually (i.e. hidden in the trees, not just out in the middle of a path), can have a surprise round. After all, an Cleric who stays far enough back can just as easily get a surprise Guiding Bolt off at the same time that the Rogue fires a sneak attack from a bow or throws a dagger. The enemy, if unaware of their presence, would be just as taken by surprise, and each turn is supposedly happening simultaneously anyway.
I would love to see acoustic analyses of a couple of vastly different settings (or testing, if practical). I don't advocate accuracy or development of some hard rules, but it would be nice to have some reference points for DM judgement calls (E.g., "yes, you can clearly hear someone talking 20 ft away if you're crouched near a small stream - no check needed"). Although the DM Screen has a section on this, it can't be reliably applied to every environment (e.g., 40 ft away in an open field is vastly different than 40 ft away in a tavern).
My current dilemma (less-experienced DM here, btw) is that a group of 4 characters just defeated a monster in a large cavernous area (50'x30'), where half of the combat took place at the bottom of a crevasse. There was no metal-clanking. Only ranged weapons, claws, and spells with verbal components. The combat lasted 3 rounds (2 with noise).
From the combat area, a Hallway 30' long ends in a Tee, which splits off in both directions another 10' before closed doors. The adversaries on the other side of the doors are not paying attention, so I assume a passive perception check is appropriate... However, with all the irregular surfaces of the cavern and crevasse, including lots of loose dirt and rock, I have no idea if this even warrants a check! I can guess sound gets absorbed (dirt/gravel, etc.) and/or diffused enough (stalactites/stalagmites/irregular surfaces) that no check is required. I can also guess that those combat sounds easily make their way down the hallways, assisted by the low-damping, highly-reflective acoustic properties of the hard stone. But hey, I've never been in an environment like this at all, so I don't have a clue. I suspect nobody from Wizards of the Coast has either.
So in the right conditions with little wind, an intelligible human male voice can be heard out to around 180m or 540 feet. Obviously this is likely cut down by air movement - but that is in order for you to still hear what is being said! To simply be able to hear the voice, but not necessarily discern what is being said, I imagine it would be quite a lot further.
Obviously there is a ton of variables, wind, rain, different voices and wavelengths than average human male etc etc. But as a guide for an outdoor distance to pick up someone speaking, I go with the double for picking up the voice (e.g. 360m or roughly 1,000 feet) without being able to necessarily understand what is being said.
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Tell me what you you are trying to achieve - we're telling this story together ....at least I thought we were - Now I am not so sure [OGL 1.1]
I know it is late, but besides the normal hearing ranges. There is no such thing as a combat without a bunch of noise that will mask any sort of speaking.
e.g., 40 ft away in an open field is vastly different than 40 ft away in a tavern.
I've started to expand a little on my earlier post and think about audible distance in a similar way to how the game handles light.
Bright Light = Quiet Environment, e.g. a secluded clearing in a forest - Quiet Distance ~35ft., Normal Distance ~70ft., Loud Distance ~350ft Dim Light = Regular Noise Environment, e.g. strolling through a village street - Quiet Distance ~20ft., Normal Distance ~40ft., Loud Distance ~200ft Darkness = Loud Environment, e.g. busy tavern - Quiet Distance ~10ft., Normal Distance ~20ft., Loud Distance ~100ft
If you want to shorten the distance, i.e. you're being stealthy and want to either get closer, or want to prevent people from hearing, you roll Stealth. If you want to widen the distance, you roll Perception. In a loud environment, you roll Stealth with Advantage and Perception with Disadvantage.
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The rules don’t say much about how distance affects the perception of sounds.
The only thing I’ve found is that some spells, such as Thunderclap, say they “can be heard up to 100 feet away”.
How do you as a DM use this information to guide your rulings on using Wisdom (Perception) skill checks to detect creatures by hearing and how does it affect Surprise in your game?
For instance, you have a stealthy Ranger and Rogue that are 30 feet in front of unstealthy Fighter and Cleric. Is 30 feet enough to allow the Ranger and Rogue to surprise the enemy without the Fighter and Cleric ruining it?
If they said they were moving in separately from the others, I’d allow for the ones who bested the Perception of the guards to be considered unnoticed. Lotta good that’ll do them, though, if the others put the guards on alert. If the others forced initiative rolls, I wouldn’t allow for any surprise mechanics or advantage. Yeah, the rogue will get Sneak Attack if the target is in melee with your less stealthy party mates. That’s basic. But there’s no surprising an enemy with his sword drawn, ready for battle.
If they didn’t declare they were sneaking separately, they’re all discovered. D&D norms are the party sneaks together. No rules about that, obviously, but that’s just almost always how it happens.
If they declared they were keeping space, and some got caught, but were just being questioned by the guards, I’d allow for a chance for the sneaky ones to sneak up behind the guards. At a higher DC. But if successful, sure, they can have advantage on an attack or grapple check.
So to clarify, you follow the book, no effect on the Perception check due to distance? Would 60 feet between the groups make a difference? 100 feet? 120 feet?
One of the many things not covered in the rules.
same way how even though you can see people walking from a mile or so away... it’s only an issue for sight that someone’s approaching once they are within 600 feet. A little more than 1/10th of a mile
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Putting a hard and fast number on perceptible distance is unreasonable. My ability to perceive is influenced by my surroundings. In a noisy room, I’m unlikely to discern voices unless they’re trying to be heard. In a forest, I’m likely to miss even close creatures because of cover. If you’ve ever gone hunting, you know how a squirrel hopping around the leaves sounds like a large deer crashing through the brush, but then you can look up and there’s a deer you feel like you should have heard coming, but never did.
Just look at the circumstances and make a reasoned judgement of the situation.
That’s what I do. I was wondering how other DMs interpret the Thunderclap and other spells that say “can be heard up tp 100 feet away” and how that shapes your judgement on hearing other things at a distance.
D&D ranges are in general unrealistically short, probably to keep map sizes practical. On the question of party stealth when the party is split up, I generally figure that being in the rear group means you arrive at any combat in round 2.
The dungeon master screen(s) have (official) information for encounter starting distances, typical visual ranges, and typical audible distances.
Sorry for resurrecting an old thread.
Appart from the Dungeon's Master Guide Visibility Outdoor, the sight or hearing range is not all that detailed in the rules so it will be up to DM but if not sure of the distance to start an encounter, there's always Encounter Distance Tables found in the Dungeon Master Screen.
The Dungeon Master Screen(s) (as mentioned by Frank) have a small section on audible distances that, quite frankly, should be included in an actual book, and possibly expanded on. It's a great start, and very useful to know.
Basically, when a character is trying to be quiet, they can typically only be heard 2d6 x 5ft (35ft) away, when they're at a normal noise level it's 2d6 x 10ft (70ft), and being really loud is 2d6 x 50ft (350ft). You can use this as a base / starting point and then change it up based on the situation. Let's take sneaking up on a bandit camp as an example. Is it quiet in / around the camp? Are the bandits talking / fighting / partying, or are they keeping watch? These things affect ones ability to hear sounds. So, if we take 35ft as the base range for someone to be heard when they're trying to be quiet, anything outside that range would be difficult to hear. The bandits are making noise, and not keeping watch, so they probably won't notice much sounds beyond 25ft. But the Cleric wearing Chain Mail rolled poor on Stealth, so they're making noise at a normal level. The Cleric can probably be heard within 50ft (70ft as the average for the "normal" range, with a 20ft penalty for the Bandits as they're also making noise and not paying attention).
With that in mind, the stealthy Rogue can stay 25ft from the Bandits (Stealth beat their Passive Perception, and they're trying to be quiet while approaching loud enemies), and then the Cleric would need to be at least 25ft even further back (Stealth did not beat the Bandits Passive Perception, and while they're trying to be quiet, they're failing to do so).
If the Bandits were also quiet, the Rogue could only get within 35ft before they would at least need to make another Stealth check (maybe with disadvantage for being so close), and the Cleric could only get within 70ft. If the Bandits were quiet AND alerted to potential danger / keeping guard, then the Rogue would probably only get to within 45ft, while the Cleric would only get to within about 90ft.
So, use the "Audible Distance" table on the DM Screen as a starting reference, and allow successful Stealth to be "quiet" (35ft.) while unsuccessful Stealth be "normal" volume (70ft.), and then make the audible ranges longer or shorter depending on the circumstances.
When it comes to surprise, anyone who is outside of the audible range for their own Stealth vs the enemies Perception check (or Passive Perception), and who hasn't otherwise been spotted visually (i.e. hidden in the trees, not just out in the middle of a path), can have a surprise round. After all, an Cleric who stays far enough back can just as easily get a surprise Guiding Bolt off at the same time that the Rogue fires a sneak attack from a bow or throws a dagger. The enemy, if unaware of their presence, would be just as taken by surprise, and each turn is supposedly happening simultaneously anyway.
I would love to see acoustic analyses of a couple of vastly different settings (or testing, if practical). I don't advocate accuracy or development of some hard rules, but it would be nice to have some reference points for DM judgement calls (E.g., "yes, you can clearly hear someone talking 20 ft away if you're crouched near a small stream - no check needed"). Although the DM Screen has a section on this, it can't be reliably applied to every environment (e.g., 40 ft away in an open field is vastly different than 40 ft away in a tavern).
My current dilemma (less-experienced DM here, btw) is that a group of 4 characters just defeated a monster in a large cavernous area (50'x30'), where half of the combat took place at the bottom of a crevasse. There was no metal-clanking. Only ranged weapons, claws, and spells with verbal components. The combat lasted 3 rounds (2 with noise).
From the combat area, a Hallway 30' long ends in a Tee, which splits off in both directions another 10' before closed doors. The adversaries on the other side of the doors are not paying attention, so I assume a passive perception check is appropriate... However, with all the irregular surfaces of the cavern and crevasse, including lots of loose dirt and rock, I have no idea if this even warrants a check! I can guess sound gets absorbed (dirt/gravel, etc.) and/or diffused enough (stalactites/stalagmites/irregular surfaces) that no check is required. I can also guess that those combat sounds easily make their way down the hallways, assisted by the low-damping, highly-reflective acoustic properties of the hard stone. But hey, I've never been in an environment like this at all, so I don't have a clue. I suspect nobody from Wizards of the Coast has either.
So in the right conditions with little wind, an intelligible human male voice can be heard out to around 180m or 540 feet. Obviously this is likely cut down by air movement - but that is in order for you to still hear what is being said! To simply be able to hear the voice, but not necessarily discern what is being said, I imagine it would be quite a lot further.
Obviously there is a ton of variables, wind, rain, different voices and wavelengths than average human male etc etc. But as a guide for an outdoor distance to pick up someone speaking, I go with the double for picking up the voice (e.g. 360m or roughly 1,000 feet) without being able to necessarily understand what is being said.
Tell me what you you are trying to achieve - we're telling this story together ....at least I thought we were - Now I am not so sure [OGL 1.1]
Go outside and experiment.
I know it is late, but besides the normal hearing ranges. There is no such thing as a combat without a bunch of noise that will mask any sort of speaking.
I've started to expand a little on my earlier post and think about audible distance in a similar way to how the game handles light.
Bright Light = Quiet Environment, e.g. a secluded clearing in a forest - Quiet Distance ~35ft., Normal Distance ~70ft., Loud Distance ~350ft
Dim Light = Regular Noise Environment, e.g. strolling through a village street - Quiet Distance ~20ft., Normal Distance ~40ft., Loud Distance ~200ft
Darkness = Loud Environment, e.g. busy tavern - Quiet Distance ~10ft., Normal Distance ~20ft., Loud Distance ~100ft
If you want to shorten the distance, i.e. you're being stealthy and want to either get closer, or want to prevent people from hearing, you roll Stealth. If you want to widen the distance, you roll Perception. In a loud environment, you roll Stealth with Advantage and Perception with Disadvantage.