Hey everyone! I have been running DND for a few years, I’m fairly new to the game, but I’ve been playing weekly for three years now and am loving it! I’ve primarily been a DM for that course of time, and I’ve always had a question of whether a combat encounter could/should have a goal other than “Kill all enemies”. Granted, this is a situation thing. And encounters are more fluid then that a lot of the time. However, I’ve always wondered if any DMs out there like to mix up their combats with any other “Win” scenarios. One I’ve always liked is the “Defend the Npc/zone/item from waves of enemies” which is very Fire Emblem in its design. But I’m not sure if it would work within DNDs structure. Are there any specific encounter goals you all like to throw into the mix? Anyone have an success/failure stories about running encounters with more esoteric goals?
The problem with 'hold off the horde' scenarios in 5e is that an awful lot of them can be solved by just dropping a zone on a choke -- for example, if you're blocking a 20' wide bridge, you can hold of an infinite number of orcs with Spike Growth (their shortest path is something like 35', causing 14d4 damage).
But you could have the orcs shaman neutralizing those spells with counter spells thus making the goal alter from “Defend the bridge” to “Defend the bridge and kill that loser” Or if you pull a large scale battle Wyvern riders attacking from above, and your horde of soldiers below.
Years ago there was a NWN module called "The War of the Yellow Fang, Part 1". Very sadly, the later parts were never made by the author (as far as I know). But WYF was one of the best modules my friends and I played in all of the mods in all of NWN. The premise was that there was some force, perhaps an evil deity, making goblins attack en masse in these suicide rushes. Wave after wave of them coming at you and they goblins absolutely did not seem to care if they died. They in fact carried explosion potions on them and if they got close enough they just suicide-bombed you. My Dwarf Paladin with the crappy DEX was forced (after trying to tank and almost dying repeatedly) to hang back and use bows. We had a Sorc. for spells and another HTH character (monk) also using a bow. We were frantic to keep them from us because we kept taking explosion damage. And there was just no end to them. They kept coming and coming. We had to move forward through waves of suicide-bomb enemies. We were like 9th level, and these low-CR goblins, orcs, and hobgoblins were giving us fits. There was no time or chance to rest. You just had to keep going, getting slowly whittled down as you did. It was awesome.
So... if you introduce a scenario in which the enemy coming at you does not care if they die, maybe wants to die (say, their dying saves their held-hostage family back home), and will just keep coming no matter how many bodies pile up... this can really change how the players have to approach things. The normal assumption is that enemies will be as motivated by self-preservation as you are, and that they will act accordingly. But if you put up that Spike Growth and the goblins don't care, and just keep coming and coming and coming until the spell wears off... that's going to make for an interesting and unique encounter.
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I wasn't saying that you can't run a hold off the horde setup, it just needs somewhat careful scenario design. Anyway, on the original question:
Many scenarios don't actually have an objective of 'kill the monsters', it's just that it's the most straightforward way of accomplishing your actual goal. If you want to change things up, you need a situation where simply killing the monsters isn't practical or doesn't accomplish your goal.
A common form of this is "break into the bad guy's stronghold, accomplish something, and get out, without being overwhelmed". This has a couple of common variants based on what 'something' is:
Assassination: go in and kill something.
Espionage: go in and get information.
Rescue: go in and get someone out.
Sabotage: go in and destroy something.
Theft: go in and steal something.
All of these have a problem of prioritizing mobility and stealth, meaning some characters might just get left at home, plus they're prone to being trivialized by high level spells (I use scrying to locate the prisoner, dimension door in, dimension door out with the prisoner). Those are solvable problems (for example, Private Sanctum, or for a lower level option rope trick, or an object that's too large for you to transport that way) but do need to be considered in scenario design.
Rather than overwhelming force, you might have a time limit (e.g. there's a day's worth of encounters inside, but the demon summoning finishes in an hour), a stealth requirement (if you get spotted, they'll kill the hostages), a moving target (if you stop to fight, the target gets away), or some sort.
Close variants of the above include escape (you are already inside, and need to get out with the MacGuffin) and transport (you need to get the MacGuffin from one side of the enemy zone to the other). They have similar concerns to the above.
A second common form is the reverse of the above; you want to prevent the bad guys from doing something. This can usually be accomplished by killing the bad guys fast enough, but it can be a hassle when one enemy flees with the MacGuffin while the rest fight, or the bad guys can succeed by just fireballing the noble you're protecting. The same options that are troublesome when used by PCs are troublesome when used by NPCs.
A third common form is timed survival, like the horde example above.
A fourth common form is restrictions on tactics, such as not being permitted to kill things (perhaps a diplomatic problem, perhaps the monsters are actually cursed villagers you want to cure). 5e makes this relatively easy because melee attacks can always strike to knock out, but ranged and area attacks don't have that option.
whether a combat encounter could/should have a goal other than “Kill all enemies”.
Absolutely. In fact, the goal of combat is never "kill all enemies" (unless you are in an arena).
The goal of combat is "stop the evil high priest" or "steal the treasure from the haunted tomb" or "escape from the slavers" or something similar.
Or, to put it another way, combat is not an encounter - it is simply one method for removing an obstacle to achieving the goal of an encounter. Sure, you could kill all enemies, but you could also bribe them to look the other way, or trick them, or sneak past them, or convince their enemies to fight them for you, or…
As a GM, for every encounter in the game, you need to know what the PCs' goal is - in literary terms, the Dramatic Question (warning, AngryGM link, profanity follows).
If an enounter doesn't have a goal then its not an encounter - its just exposition (which can be boring, so keep it to a minimum at the table).
whether a combat encounter could/should have a goal other than “Kill all enemies”.
Absolutely. In fact, the goal of combat is never "kill all enemies" (unless you are in an arena).
Eh, it can be. If there's a monster wandering about eating peasants, there's a good chance your objective is to go kill it.
I won't argue that the goal never CAN be "kill all enemies", but if there's a monster wandering about eating peasants, there could be many more solutions than killing it. For instance:
The monster in question is a werewolf when there is a full moon. Will kill him solve the problem? Yes, but isn't it better to lift the curse if that's possible?
OK, a completely mindless killing-machine kind of monster - yes KILL IT, but for most others there are other solutions if you want to have them.
Time locks can work great for instance: You need to get out before the cave collapses. It will happen in 6 rounds. This can force the players to not try to kill everything, but rather get past them.
But I would say - D&D is quite rigged for combat. That's where the system is at its best and most balanced. There are other RPG systems that are more suited for other kind of challenges. However, that doesn't mean that each combat needs to be to fatal, there certainly are ways to make combat funny without just killing everything.
I try to always have alternatives to combat in mind for every encounter I assume will go to combat. Sometimes make combat the wrong or more difficult choice to encourage players to consider alternatives.
Not every foe needs to or will fight to the death. Try to figure out the motives of the actors in your encounters to determine if they would do others things or event fight at all. Even a wandering monster needs to have a reason for being there. The answer may allow different paths than combat
This is a little off topic, but try to run things so there isn’t quite so much delineation between combat and non-combat. This can be tricky, but you can weave narrative into the action and have reset points where perhaps surprise, rerolling initiative, or emergent role playing can be introduced to break up the you go, I go, you go, I go. Mechanically, you can give any creature lair or legendary actions if you aren’t comfortable free-forming this or have rules lawyers at hand.
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Hey everyone! I have been running DND for a few years, I’m fairly new to the game, but I’ve been playing weekly for three years now and am loving it! I’ve primarily been a DM for that course of time, and I’ve always had a question of whether a combat encounter could/should have a goal other than “Kill all enemies”. Granted, this is a situation thing. And encounters are more fluid then that a lot of the time. However, I’ve always wondered if any DMs out there like to mix up their combats with any other “Win” scenarios. One I’ve always liked is the “Defend the Npc/zone/item from waves of enemies” which is very Fire Emblem in its design. But I’m not sure if it would work within DNDs structure.
Are there any specific encounter goals you all like to throw into the mix? Anyone have an success/failure stories about running encounters with more esoteric goals?
The problem with 'hold off the horde' scenarios in 5e is that an awful lot of them can be solved by just dropping a zone on a choke -- for example, if you're blocking a 20' wide bridge, you can hold of an infinite number of orcs with Spike Growth (their shortest path is something like 35', causing 14d4 damage).
Questioning one of the opponents can be a huge goal. You need to defeat said opponents without killing them in order to question them after the fight.
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But you could have the orcs shaman neutralizing those spells with counter spells thus making the goal alter from “Defend the bridge” to “Defend the bridge and kill that loser” Or if you pull a large scale battle Wyvern riders attacking from above, and your horde of soldiers below.
Years ago there was a NWN module called "The War of the Yellow Fang, Part 1". Very sadly, the later parts were never made by the author (as far as I know). But WYF was one of the best modules my friends and I played in all of the mods in all of NWN. The premise was that there was some force, perhaps an evil deity, making goblins attack en masse in these suicide rushes. Wave after wave of them coming at you and they goblins absolutely did not seem to care if they died. They in fact carried explosion potions on them and if they got close enough they just suicide-bombed you. My Dwarf Paladin with the crappy DEX was forced (after trying to tank and almost dying repeatedly) to hang back and use bows. We had a Sorc. for spells and another HTH character (monk) also using a bow. We were frantic to keep them from us because we kept taking explosion damage. And there was just no end to them. They kept coming and coming. We had to move forward through waves of suicide-bomb enemies. We were like 9th level, and these low-CR goblins, orcs, and hobgoblins were giving us fits. There was no time or chance to rest. You just had to keep going, getting slowly whittled down as you did. It was awesome.
So... if you introduce a scenario in which the enemy coming at you does not care if they die, maybe wants to die (say, their dying saves their held-hostage family back home), and will just keep coming no matter how many bodies pile up... this can really change how the players have to approach things. The normal assumption is that enemies will be as motivated by self-preservation as you are, and that they will act accordingly. But if you put up that Spike Growth and the goblins don't care, and just keep coming and coming and coming until the spell wears off... that's going to make for an interesting and unique encounter.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I wasn't saying that you can't run a hold off the horde setup, it just needs somewhat careful scenario design. Anyway, on the original question:
Many scenarios don't actually have an objective of 'kill the monsters', it's just that it's the most straightforward way of accomplishing your actual goal. If you want to change things up, you need a situation where simply killing the monsters isn't practical or doesn't accomplish your goal.
A common form of this is "break into the bad guy's stronghold, accomplish something, and get out, without being overwhelmed". This has a couple of common variants based on what 'something' is:
All of these have a problem of prioritizing mobility and stealth, meaning some characters might just get left at home, plus they're prone to being trivialized by high level spells (I use scrying to locate the prisoner, dimension door in, dimension door out with the prisoner). Those are solvable problems (for example, Private Sanctum, or for a lower level option rope trick, or an object that's too large for you to transport that way) but do need to be considered in scenario design.
Rather than overwhelming force, you might have a time limit (e.g. there's a day's worth of encounters inside, but the demon summoning finishes in an hour), a stealth requirement (if you get spotted, they'll kill the hostages), a moving target (if you stop to fight, the target gets away), or some sort.
Close variants of the above include escape (you are already inside, and need to get out with the MacGuffin) and transport (you need to get the MacGuffin from one side of the enemy zone to the other). They have similar concerns to the above.
A second common form is the reverse of the above; you want to prevent the bad guys from doing something. This can usually be accomplished by killing the bad guys fast enough, but it can be a hassle when one enemy flees with the MacGuffin while the rest fight, or the bad guys can succeed by just fireballing the noble you're protecting. The same options that are troublesome when used by PCs are troublesome when used by NPCs.
A third common form is timed survival, like the horde example above.
A fourth common form is restrictions on tactics, such as not being permitted to kill things (perhaps a diplomatic problem, perhaps the monsters are actually cursed villagers you want to cure). 5e makes this relatively easy because melee attacks can always strike to knock out, but ranged and area attacks don't have that option.
Absolutely. In fact, the goal of combat is never "kill all enemies" (unless you are in an arena).
The goal of combat is "stop the evil high priest" or "steal the treasure from the haunted tomb" or "escape from the slavers" or something similar.
Or, to put it another way, combat is not an encounter - it is simply one method for removing an obstacle to achieving the goal of an encounter. Sure, you could kill all enemies, but you could also bribe them to look the other way, or trick them, or sneak past them, or convince their enemies to fight them for you, or…
As a GM, for every encounter in the game, you need to know what the PCs' goal is - in literary terms, the Dramatic Question (warning, AngryGM link, profanity follows).
If an enounter doesn't have a goal then its not an encounter - its just exposition (which can be boring, so keep it to a minimum at the table).
Eh, it can be. If there's a monster wandering about eating peasants, there's a good chance your objective is to go kill it.
I won't argue that the goal never CAN be "kill all enemies", but if there's a monster wandering about eating peasants, there could be many more solutions than killing it. For instance:
OK, a completely mindless killing-machine kind of monster - yes KILL IT, but for most others there are other solutions if you want to have them.
Time locks can work great for instance: You need to get out before the cave collapses. It will happen in 6 rounds. This can force the players to not try to kill everything, but rather get past them.
But I would say - D&D is quite rigged for combat. That's where the system is at its best and most balanced. There are other RPG systems that are more suited for other kind of challenges. However, that doesn't mean that each combat needs to be to fatal, there certainly are ways to make combat funny without just killing everything.
Ludo ergo sum!
I try to always have alternatives to combat in mind for every encounter I assume will go to combat. Sometimes make combat the wrong or more difficult choice to encourage players to consider alternatives.
Not every foe needs to or will fight to the death. Try to figure out the motives of the actors in your encounters to determine if they would do others things or event fight at all. Even a wandering monster needs to have a reason for being there. The answer may allow different paths than combat
This is a little off topic, but try to run things so there isn’t quite so much delineation between combat and non-combat. This can be tricky, but you can weave narrative into the action and have reset points where perhaps surprise, rerolling initiative, or emergent role playing can be introduced to break up the you go, I go, you go, I go. Mechanically, you can give any creature lair or legendary actions if you aren’t comfortable free-forming this or have rules lawyers at hand.