If you were to get rid of spells like raise dead, resurrection and true resurrection, how would you balance the cleric's spell list? Would you even need to?
I really hate the idea of an undo button on death. Revivify plays a useful mechanical role and higher-level encounters are probably balanced with the idea that players will be able to cast it, but I find it so anti-dramatic to be able to bring dead people back to life. Actually, it would be interesting to see how a society would evolve under those conditions, but that's neither here nor there. I don't think coming up with particular reasons why a particular dead person can't be rezzed is a solution: you'd use that on every important NPC who died meaningfully and then you just gave people a power in game and told them they couldn't use it. That's lame.
I think, if I were to run a homebrewed world, I would exclude them. Any recommendations for what they should be replaced with?
As long as you let the players know ahead of time, I wouldn't change anything. It doesn't change encounter balance between classes, just the overall risk aversion of the group. The only thing I can think of that might need changing is the zealot barbarian trait.
If you were to get rid of spells like raise dead, resurrection and true resurrection, how would you balance the cleric's spell list? Would you even need to?
The ability to raise the dead is not a major factor in cleric balance (it doesn't really even require a cleric in the party, Gentle Repose and an NPC is plenty), so there isn't a serious need to balance clerics for removing it. I wouldn't expect it to even affect game play all that much, PCs are unlikely to die in any fight they win (it's hard to fail three death saves before someone can spare an action to heal you, unless you're in a damaging zone or something), and if you don't remove Revivify, essentially impossible. This leaves a fight where the PCs lose and are unable to escape with the body (either because they couldn't move it, or because they couldn't escape), and the NPCs do not stabilize, destroy, or hide the body.
I'm not sure why you'd need to run a homebrew world to exclude spells. Any DM running in any world, including FR, Greyhawk, etc., can disallow any spell he or she wants at any time for any reason. Not that I think one should disallow spells often as a general rule... I just don't see why you'd need to be running a homebrew world to enable you to alter the spell lists. You can (technically) do whatever you want as a DM. Now, whether doing what you want is wise is another story, of course.
With regard to the specific spells you're asking about, as a player, I would not have any problem with playing in a world that had no rez magic.
As a DM, I probably would not want to forego it entirely, but rather, I would limit it. For example, you might say that super powerful spells are subject to deity approval; that is, you can cast the rez spell, but nothing says the deity is going to rez the target for you. It's up to your patron and much will depend on (1) the identity of the target (if Zeus doesn't approve of the target he ain't going to be giving you rez power), and (2) how much favor the cleric has with said deity.
I think what I might do is actually go through the upper-level spells and build a list of what I would call reality-altering spells. Along with Resurrection and Raise Dead, the list would include spells like Wish. And what I would instruct the players is that the gods do not like it when mortals alter reality, and any attempt to do so runs the risk of the spell not only not working, but the wrath of one or more deities coming down upon them in punishment. And of course, the more times one casts reality-altering spells, the more likely the gods are to become displeased. One Wish may be OK, but casting Wish every week or something is going to attract some very angry attention.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I agree with BW that it isn't necessarily necessary to completely remove spells from the spell list. Instead, just increase the cost and requirements of the spell. And remember to apply a copious dose of Murphy's Law.
For example, the 7th level spell "Resurrection" merely requires you to have a body, a diamond worth at least 1,000gp, and an hour of time. That does seem a tad easy considering you're literally bringing someone back from the dang dead!
So rather than making it impossible, just make it more difficult. Maybe the local rulers have laws against unlicensed resurrections. Maybe they're worried about necromancers, so every resurrection requires prior approval, with paperwork signed, and a donation/insurance payment, and you must convince the Board of Licensing that you're a worthy candidate. So now you've got an entire political intrigue subplot that you'll have to run through for a few gaming sessions before you can even get permission to perform the spell. And of course, unlicensed resurrections carry severe penalties. Like... very severe.
Also... you can't buy a 1000+ gp diamond at every random 7-11. People who sell diamonds know what they can be used for. Diamonds that big will most certainly be tracked by the Gemcutters Guild. Anyone who goes around inquiring to purchase such a diamond will be reported to the Guild immediately (because any shopkeeper who fails to report such an inquiry is subject to the revocation of the shop's license). So again - another session of searching, and intrigue, and making your case.
Or maybe the players just have bad luck. Right??? The spell takes an entire hour to cast. Somebody obviously killed that person once. Maybe they want them to stay dead. So maybe they (or their minions, or their vengeful next of kin) learn that you're going to attempt the ritual, and they bust in to break it up. So there you are - halfway through a one hour ritual that requires your total and unbroken concentration - and your party is fighting off a team of assassins that showed up to stop you. Good luck with that! One hit, one failed Concentration check, and all your efforts are wasted. Sure you can try again later, but the diamond has already been tainted so you need a fresh one, aaaaaand.... you're back to the previous complication.
These spells also require that the soul being resurrected be "free and willing"! Well that right there is just a grab bag of complications waiting to be thrown around! Not every soul that departs every body becomes "free". The dead character's deity (or patron) is far more powerful than you and your silly little spell, so they get Celestial First Dibs over that soul. So maybe they've got a task or a quest or something that that soul must perform first. Maybe the player of the fallen character will have to first complete a one-shot in which they complete the quest assigned to them by their deity/patron, before their soul becomes "free" and thus eligible for return.
And finally, the soul must also be "willing". Dig into that character's backstory. Be sure to tug on their heartstrings by describing to them in painful detail just how breathtakingly awesome the afterlife is. And remind them how great it feels to be reunited with their parents, who died some years ago, and to be reunited with Scraps, the puppy they had when they were a child, etc etc. Roleplay those souls pleading with the character. So the party's cleric is casting Resurrection, but the dead character's mother is in the afterlife begging and pleading with her child, "Please! Don't go back! I can't lose you again!"
Remember - free AND willing!
Whatever decision you make, just make sure that every player understands the rule change prior to the rule change taking effect. That's only fair.
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Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
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If you were to get rid of spells like raise dead, resurrection and true resurrection, how would you balance the cleric's spell list? Would you even need to?
I really hate the idea of an undo button on death. Revivify plays a useful mechanical role and higher-level encounters are probably balanced with the idea that players will be able to cast it, but I find it so anti-dramatic to be able to bring dead people back to life. Actually, it would be interesting to see how a society would evolve under those conditions, but that's neither here nor there. I don't think coming up with particular reasons why a particular dead person can't be rezzed is a solution: you'd use that on every important NPC who died meaningfully and then you just gave people a power in game and told them they couldn't use it. That's lame.
I think, if I were to run a homebrewed world, I would exclude them. Any recommendations for what they should be replaced with?
As long as you let the players know ahead of time, I wouldn't change anything. It doesn't change encounter balance between classes, just the overall risk aversion of the group. The only thing I can think of that might need changing is the zealot barbarian trait.
The ability to raise the dead is not a major factor in cleric balance (it doesn't really even require a cleric in the party, Gentle Repose and an NPC is plenty), so there isn't a serious need to balance clerics for removing it. I wouldn't expect it to even affect game play all that much, PCs are unlikely to die in any fight they win (it's hard to fail three death saves before someone can spare an action to heal you, unless you're in a damaging zone or something), and if you don't remove Revivify, essentially impossible. This leaves a fight where the PCs lose and are unable to escape with the body (either because they couldn't move it, or because they couldn't escape), and the NPCs do not stabilize, destroy, or hide the body.
I'm not sure why you'd need to run a homebrew world to exclude spells. Any DM running in any world, including FR, Greyhawk, etc., can disallow any spell he or she wants at any time for any reason. Not that I think one should disallow spells often as a general rule... I just don't see why you'd need to be running a homebrew world to enable you to alter the spell lists. You can (technically) do whatever you want as a DM. Now, whether doing what you want is wise is another story, of course.
With regard to the specific spells you're asking about, as a player, I would not have any problem with playing in a world that had no rez magic.
As a DM, I probably would not want to forego it entirely, but rather, I would limit it. For example, you might say that super powerful spells are subject to deity approval; that is, you can cast the rez spell, but nothing says the deity is going to rez the target for you. It's up to your patron and much will depend on (1) the identity of the target (if Zeus doesn't approve of the target he ain't going to be giving you rez power), and (2) how much favor the cleric has with said deity.
I think what I might do is actually go through the upper-level spells and build a list of what I would call reality-altering spells. Along with Resurrection and Raise Dead, the list would include spells like Wish. And what I would instruct the players is that the gods do not like it when mortals alter reality, and any attempt to do so runs the risk of the spell not only not working, but the wrath of one or more deities coming down upon them in punishment. And of course, the more times one casts reality-altering spells, the more likely the gods are to become displeased. One Wish may be OK, but casting Wish every week or something is going to attract some very angry attention.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I agree with BW that it isn't necessarily necessary to completely remove spells from the spell list. Instead, just increase the cost and requirements of the spell. And remember to apply a copious dose of Murphy's Law.
For example, the 7th level spell "Resurrection" merely requires you to have a body, a diamond worth at least 1,000gp, and an hour of time. That does seem a tad easy considering you're literally bringing someone back from the dang dead!
So rather than making it impossible, just make it more difficult. Maybe the local rulers have laws against unlicensed resurrections. Maybe they're worried about necromancers, so every resurrection requires prior approval, with paperwork signed, and a donation/insurance payment, and you must convince the Board of Licensing that you're a worthy candidate. So now you've got an entire political intrigue subplot that you'll have to run through for a few gaming sessions before you can even get permission to perform the spell. And of course, unlicensed resurrections carry severe penalties. Like... very severe.
Also... you can't buy a 1000+ gp diamond at every random 7-11. People who sell diamonds know what they can be used for. Diamonds that big will most certainly be tracked by the Gemcutters Guild. Anyone who goes around inquiring to purchase such a diamond will be reported to the Guild immediately (because any shopkeeper who fails to report such an inquiry is subject to the revocation of the shop's license). So again - another session of searching, and intrigue, and making your case.
Or maybe the players just have bad luck. Right??? The spell takes an entire hour to cast. Somebody obviously killed that person once. Maybe they want them to stay dead. So maybe they (or their minions, or their vengeful next of kin) learn that you're going to attempt the ritual, and they bust in to break it up. So there you are - halfway through a one hour ritual that requires your total and unbroken concentration - and your party is fighting off a team of assassins that showed up to stop you. Good luck with that! One hit, one failed Concentration check, and all your efforts are wasted. Sure you can try again later, but the diamond has already been tainted so you need a fresh one, aaaaaand.... you're back to the previous complication.
These spells also require that the soul being resurrected be "free and willing"! Well that right there is just a grab bag of complications waiting to be thrown around! Not every soul that departs every body becomes "free". The dead character's deity (or patron) is far more powerful than you and your silly little spell, so they get Celestial First Dibs over that soul. So maybe they've got a task or a quest or something that that soul must perform first. Maybe the player of the fallen character will have to first complete a one-shot in which they complete the quest assigned to them by their deity/patron, before their soul becomes "free" and thus eligible for return.
And finally, the soul must also be "willing". Dig into that character's backstory. Be sure to tug on their heartstrings by describing to them in painful detail just how breathtakingly awesome the afterlife is. And remind them how great it feels to be reunited with their parents, who died some years ago, and to be reunited with Scraps, the puppy they had when they were a child, etc etc. Roleplay those souls pleading with the character. So the party's cleric is casting Resurrection, but the dead character's mother is in the afterlife begging and pleading with her child, "Please! Don't go back! I can't lose you again!"
Remember - free AND willing!
Whatever decision you make, just make sure that every player understands the rule change prior to the rule change taking effect. That's only fair.
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.