So... Background: One of my players plays an evocation wizard and he chose the "noble" background and wanted to be a crown prince for an elvish kingdom. I granted his wish, which I now regret. A lot...
I gave him several elven realms/kingdoms to choose from and of course he opted for the most powerful and largest kindgom (basically an empire the size of a continent).
Now that the players have reached higher levels and spells like "Sending" and "Teleport" has entered the picture I have a hard time of "controlling" the "crown prince" .
He constantly asks his father (the emperor) for help, both with gold and aid. He got a lot of spells for free. Because: "Why shouldn't the crown prince get free access to the magic academy's libraries?" He have asked for spies and soldiers and placed them in important places. And now that they have arrived in the capital of the elven empire, I am afraid of what he'll ask for next... This because I have just raised the stakes from local warlords and villains to a global time clock.
Its basically: "The evil dragon is looking for the ancient dragon runes that if combined will resurrect the god of creation and grant the person godlike powers."
Basically. I am asking how do I shut this down, dial this down without hamstering the player's enjoyment of the game (too much)? It's my fault from the start. Being to generous at the start. But I am trying to be more "Yes and..." and not "No..."
Any help and input is appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Maybe the emperor becomes frustrated with his son's constant pestering and decides it's time his son came of age. To prove he is worthy to inherit the crown, he needs to prove himself by succeeding on a great adventure without his father's aid. Otherwise, should the father die, the crown will pass to his brother, the prince's uncle, instead. This hasn't been a problem in the past, but now the prince is growing too old to be treated as a child.
Or you could throw some conflict into the Elven kingdom that the king has to bring his resources back to help his own people. And it could be the seed of a new, epic second campaign where they travel to his homeland to rescue it. Even better if someone kills the king, usurps the throne, and he has to come back as a renegade to reclaim his inheritance.
In case it wasn't clear - "Meet with you" is code for is setting you up for assassination or to frame you for the death of the king and queen. Which you don't tell the players.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
So, problem #1 is -- why is the Crown Prince, who is heir to the throne, allowed to go out adventuring by his father and the rest of the court? He's supposed to be learning how to rule, meeting other leaders, finding out the ways of court, studying up on laws and such. Also, going out and adventuring is a risk to life and limb, which would not be allowed for the next-in-line to the throne. There's a reason world leaders go around with security details in the real world -- even more so in a world with Dragons and Duergar in it. So you really should not have allowed him to be a crown prince in the first place, as these people are generally unable to adventure.
Problem #2 - asking papa for help all the time. Why would the king put up with this? He is the freaking heir to the throne! He is going to have to learn to handle things on his own. King should say, "You want to be King some day, learn to fend for yourself. This will prove to me that you deserve the throne."
Problem #3 - getting spells free because of the royal library. Again, this should be a no-no. It is bad form for a crown prince to be seen as demanding to avoid the hard work that everyone else has to do. He is crown prince. He must earn the respect of those around him. How can he become ruler some day if everyone knows he got things handed to him that others would have to work for? They will not follow his lead. King should disallow it on that basis.
Problem #4 - spies and soldiers. Again, King should say, son, these people have assignments for the crown -- real work they need to do for me and for our people. Why are you taking them off of their assigned tasks to do your own bidding? Kings must not be selfish. They must put the people ahead of themselves. The next time you pull one of my men off his assigned task I will... (insert appropriate punishment here).
The issue here is not merely "allowing him to be a crown prince," but rather, allowing him to be the prince without enforcing the realistic consequences of such a position. It sounds like he is being a playboy rather than a responsible heir. The King should have something harsh to say about that, possibly up to naming a different heir if prince-boy doesn't shape up.
These are all good, in-story ways to deal with the problem. Some of them would require more game time to set up than I'd want to spend on a player who was already making outsized demands on my attention. A War of Succession in the Elven Empire is a whole campaign in itself.
You might also consider putting the dragon runes on other plane or subplane, where the party will be out-of-reach of Daddy, even with sending and teleport. Alternatively, the evil dragon may have already gotten a small taste of godlike power and sent the whole freaking Elven Empire into another dimension with a snap of its Dragon Rune Gauntlet. That'll raise the personal stakes for this player.
Nobility is a dangerous line of work, and poisons can do serious damage. Does the Prince's father have an official Court Taste Tester?
Even if he does... heck, maybe the Taste Tester is in on the plot.
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Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
My advice totally depends on what you want from your campaign, but I'd do a story arc that removes his family as the center of power. Either his father is killed, or his family mysteriously disappears and whoever was responsible is trying to eliminate the PC as well, or the kingdom suffers a devastating attack from an outside power.
Iv had similer issues with player in this fashion, i agree with the previous post, however you could twist one of his teleport spells due to unforeseen forces or due to being drugged/ poison/etc and have the player accidentally switch bodys with a different person who is of the lowest caste/gender/ even race( perhaps a hated one) ie a begger/servent/ etc this allows for the player to see the world in different eyes
Iv had similer issues with player in this fashion, i agree with the previous post, however you could twist one of his teleport spells due to unforeseen forces or due to being drugged/ poison/etc and have the player accidentally switch bodys with a different person who is of the lowest caste/gender/ even race( perhaps a hated one) ie a begger/servent/ etc this allows for the player to see the world in different eyes
I'd be very careful with this, a player gaming the system might view it as retribution. Personally I'm a bigger fan of something happening on a kingdom scale that causes the king to recall resources.
If you are concerned about spell book bloat, make sure he is paying cost of copying out of pocket. I would also find it reasonable that the libraries have extensive research on low level spells but higher level ones would be very limited list of spells available/need the player to hunt down the researcher developing them. I'll leave it to others to judge where that cutoff would be. Ex. Library might have information about a wizard that cast wish but not the detailed casting instructions.
Iv had similer issues with player in this fashion, i agree with the previous post, however you could twist one of his teleport spells due to unforeseen forces or due to being drugged/ poison/etc and have the player accidentally switch bodys with a different person who is of the lowest caste/gender/ even race( perhaps a hated one) ie a begger/servent/ etc this allows for the player to see the world in different eyes
I'd be very careful with this, a player gaming the system might view it as retribution. Personally I'm a bigger fan of something happening on a kingdom scale that causes the king to recall resources.
Yeah, if you're going to directly alter the PCs situation in a personal way, I'd first talk with the player about your idea and see if they'd find it interesting to play through. From the description of what they player is doing, I think he/she'd be pretty upset at having that done to their PC.
Players go on adventure. While they are out Dragon attacks the capital. Destroys the castle. Parents are dead. In the aftermath an opposing army sacks the city and declares themesleves as the new power in the land. It is believed this army was/is working with the dragon.
I agree that just ripping him from his powers (killing his father etc), might be felt as a punishment for the player, and that to work, this probably would require a whole story arc.
You could talk to the player and explain the problem. That you should have seen it when he made the character, but didn't, and you now wants to find a way to make it work in your campaign. One of your "problems" is that D&D doesn't have a really good system for backgrounds, so a lot of what "powers" players can get from them is up to the DM. Try together with the player to work out something that can get your campaign back on track. Perhaps he is fine with letting this extra "power" go and is willing to weave a reason for this into his backstory.
Since Pandora's box is open and the crown prince of one Elf Mega Empire is running around and getting into trouble.... His actions in the world need to have real world consequences that start impacting the Elf Mega Empire. A crown prince should be seen as acting on behalf of the state. Some of his failures need to crop up politically.
What state opposes the Elf Mega Empire? They could kidnap him and demand concessions or replace him with doppelganger or simulacrum.
A faction within the Elf Mega Empire could also do the same for internal political gain or try and remove the embarrassment.
The thing that troubles me about a lot of these is that they reward one player who's being a pain, by making the whole campaign about him. I recommend a solution that cuts the guy off from his unearned powers in a way that doesn't invite more whining (at least not until the dragon rune story is finished)
It's very easy to want to "hammer" down on this player. However I'm not sure that's the best solution or that the player deserves it.
He has been allowed to take a background, and has actually not "abused" it. As it sounds to me, he has come up with more or less valid claims/questions. If I allow one of my players a background I later see sets off the balance of the game, I would first talk to the player. Not "punish" him for using a background I've allowed. That's why I would have started this as an off game discussion and simply said it as it is: I should have stopped you before (possibly from the very beginning), but now we need to figure out how to get this to work, because this isn't working. A background in D&D is supposed to be a minor flavor, not something that gives you unlimited access to spells and resources. The player needs to understand that, and then it should be possible to work out a way in the fiction that makes this realistic in game.
I agree that the best move is to talk to the player. However, I respectfully disagree with the following:
He has been allowed to take a background, and has actually not "abused" it. As it sounds to me, he has come up with more or less valid claims/questions.
I would argue he has abused it. Maybe he just doesn't understand how royalty used to work back in the day, but only an irresponsible "party animal" heir to a kingdom would act the way this guy does. Using the king's men for his own gain? Treating the royal library as his own personal book collection? Hitting up daddy for gold and aid instead of standing on his own two feet? These are traits usually portrayed in the "bad prince" in a fictional story where there is a good kid and a bad kid. He's acting like the prodigal son in the old Bible story, not the good son.
Now maybe his background says that he is a playboy with no real talent for the crown, but the OP doesn't say this. It seems like this player is using "crown prince" as an "I win" button. You don't get to do that.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
When I read the OP, I really don't see that he is abiding anything. I agree that if that is the problem it would be a good idea to somehow limit him, and that one way of doing that could be "learn to live without daddy". But we know very little of what the player uses the spells, spies and guards for. It can be perfectly sound stuff. That doesn't mean it works in the campaign though. It sounds to me that this player has managed to take control of to much "resources" and that the OP's question really is how to limit him. It sounds like the campaign on the whole goes well, and that they want to continue playing. Maybe I'm completely off, but if I where allowed to be a crown Prince and daddy kept giving me everything I asked for in my quest to save the world, why should I stop?
Increase cost of everything to him as people know he is loaded. Have a falling out with the monarchy. Being in an adventuring party with little to no guard wouldn't be too realistic so if there aren't many have assassins and kidnappers attack. You can also have the king say that adventuring is not something that is a very noble cause so he has to give it up or be cut off from support of the family. Take his rightful place and stop all the adventuring nonsense!
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[please note, english is not my first language]
So... Background: One of my players plays an evocation wizard and he chose the "noble" background and wanted to be a crown prince for an elvish kingdom. I granted his wish, which I now regret. A lot...
I gave him several elven realms/kingdoms to choose from and of course he opted for the most powerful and largest kindgom (basically an empire the size of a continent).
Now that the players have reached higher levels and spells like "Sending" and "Teleport" has entered the picture I have a hard time of "controlling" the "crown prince" .
He constantly asks his father (the emperor) for help, both with gold and aid.
He got a lot of spells for free. Because: "Why shouldn't the crown prince get free access to the magic academy's libraries?"
He have asked for spies and soldiers and placed them in important places.
And now that they have arrived in the capital of the elven empire, I am afraid of what he'll ask for next...
This because I have just raised the stakes from local warlords and villains to a global time clock.
Its basically: "The evil dragon is looking for the ancient dragon runes that if combined will resurrect the god of creation and grant the person godlike powers."
Basically. I am asking how do I
shut this down, dial this down without hamstering the player's enjoyment of the game (too much)?It's my fault from the start. Being to generous at the start. But I am trying to be more "Yes and..." and not "No..."
Any help and input is appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Maybe the emperor becomes frustrated with his son's constant pestering and decides it's time his son came of age. To prove he is worthy to inherit the crown, he needs to prove himself by succeeding on a great adventure without his father's aid. Otherwise, should the father die, the crown will pass to his brother, the prince's uncle, instead. This hasn't been a problem in the past, but now the prince is growing too old to be treated as a child.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Or you could throw some conflict into the Elven kingdom that the king has to bring his resources back to help his own people. And it could be the seed of a new, epic second campaign where they travel to his homeland to rescue it. Even better if someone kills the king, usurps the throne, and he has to come back as a renegade to reclaim his inheritance.
"I'm sorry, your father and mother have died under mysterious circumstances. Your brother is claiming the throne and says he wants to meet with you."
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
In case it wasn't clear - "Meet with you" is code for is setting you up for assassination or to frame you for the death of the king and queen. Which you don't tell the players.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
So, problem #1 is -- why is the Crown Prince, who is heir to the throne, allowed to go out adventuring by his father and the rest of the court? He's supposed to be learning how to rule, meeting other leaders, finding out the ways of court, studying up on laws and such. Also, going out and adventuring is a risk to life and limb, which would not be allowed for the next-in-line to the throne. There's a reason world leaders go around with security details in the real world -- even more so in a world with Dragons and Duergar in it. So you really should not have allowed him to be a crown prince in the first place, as these people are generally unable to adventure.
Problem #2 - asking papa for help all the time. Why would the king put up with this? He is the freaking heir to the throne! He is going to have to learn to handle things on his own. King should say, "You want to be King some day, learn to fend for yourself. This will prove to me that you deserve the throne."
Problem #3 - getting spells free because of the royal library. Again, this should be a no-no. It is bad form for a crown prince to be seen as demanding to avoid the hard work that everyone else has to do. He is crown prince. He must earn the respect of those around him. How can he become ruler some day if everyone knows he got things handed to him that others would have to work for? They will not follow his lead. King should disallow it on that basis.
Problem #4 - spies and soldiers. Again, King should say, son, these people have assignments for the crown -- real work they need to do for me and for our people. Why are you taking them off of their assigned tasks to do your own bidding? Kings must not be selfish. They must put the people ahead of themselves. The next time you pull one of my men off his assigned task I will... (insert appropriate punishment here).
The issue here is not merely "allowing him to be a crown prince," but rather, allowing him to be the prince without enforcing the realistic consequences of such a position. It sounds like he is being a playboy rather than a responsible heir. The King should have something harsh to say about that, possibly up to naming a different heir if prince-boy doesn't shape up.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
These are all good, in-story ways to deal with the problem. Some of them would require more game time to set up than I'd want to spend on a player who was already making outsized demands on my attention. A War of Succession in the Elven Empire is a whole campaign in itself.
You might also consider putting the dragon runes on other plane or subplane, where the party will be out-of-reach of Daddy, even with sending and teleport. Alternatively, the evil dragon may have already gotten a small taste of godlike power and sent the whole freaking Elven Empire into another dimension with a snap of its Dragon Rune Gauntlet. That'll raise the personal stakes for this player.
Have you considered assassination?
Nobility is a dangerous line of work, and poisons can do serious damage. Does the Prince's father have an official Court Taste Tester?
Even if he does... heck, maybe the Taste Tester is in on the plot.
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
My advice totally depends on what you want from your campaign, but I'd do a story arc that removes his family as the center of power. Either his father is killed, or his family mysteriously disappears and whoever was responsible is trying to eliminate the PC as well, or the kingdom suffers a devastating attack from an outside power.
Iv had similer issues with player in this fashion, i agree with the previous post, however you could twist one of his teleport spells due to unforeseen forces or due to being drugged/ poison/etc and have the player accidentally switch bodys with a different person who is of the lowest caste/gender/ even race( perhaps a hated one) ie a begger/servent/ etc this allows for the player to see the world in different eyes
I'd be very careful with this, a player gaming the system might view it as retribution. Personally I'm a bigger fan of something happening on a kingdom scale that causes the king to recall resources.
If you are concerned about spell book bloat, make sure he is paying cost of copying out of pocket. I would also find it reasonable that the libraries have extensive research on low level spells but higher level ones would be very limited list of spells available/need the player to hunt down the researcher developing them. I'll leave it to others to judge where that cutoff would be. Ex. Library might have information about a wizard that cast wish but not the detailed casting instructions.
Yeah, if you're going to directly alter the PCs situation in a personal way, I'd first talk with the player about your idea and see if they'd find it interesting to play through. From the description of what they player is doing, I think he/she'd be pretty upset at having that done to their PC.
Players go on adventure. While they are out Dragon attacks the capital. Destroys the castle. Parents are dead. In the aftermath an opposing army sacks the city and declares themesleves as the new power in the land. It is believed this army was/is working with the dragon.
I agree that just ripping him from his powers (killing his father etc), might be felt as a punishment for the player, and that to work, this probably would require a whole story arc.
You could talk to the player and explain the problem. That you should have seen it when he made the character, but didn't, and you now wants to find a way to make it work in your campaign. One of your "problems" is that D&D doesn't have a really good system for backgrounds, so a lot of what "powers" players can get from them is up to the DM. Try together with the player to work out something that can get your campaign back on track. Perhaps he is fine with letting this extra "power" go and is willing to weave a reason for this into his backstory.
Ludo ergo sum!
Since Pandora's box is open and the crown prince of one Elf Mega Empire is running around and getting into trouble.... His actions in the world need to have real world consequences that start impacting the Elf Mega Empire. A crown prince should be seen as acting on behalf of the state. Some of his failures need to crop up politically.
What state opposes the Elf Mega Empire? They could kidnap him and demand concessions or replace him with doppelganger or simulacrum.
A faction within the Elf Mega Empire could also do the same for internal political gain or try and remove the embarrassment.
The thing that troubles me about a lot of these is that they reward one player who's being a pain, by making the whole campaign about him. I recommend a solution that cuts the guy off from his unearned powers in a way that doesn't invite more whining (at least not until the dragon rune story is finished)
It's very easy to want to "hammer" down on this player. However I'm not sure that's the best solution or that the player deserves it.
He has been allowed to take a background, and has actually not "abused" it. As it sounds to me, he has come up with more or less valid claims/questions. If I allow one of my players a background I later see sets off the balance of the game, I would first talk to the player. Not "punish" him for using a background I've allowed. That's why I would have started this as an off game discussion and simply said it as it is: I should have stopped you before (possibly from the very beginning), but now we need to figure out how to get this to work, because this isn't working. A background in D&D is supposed to be a minor flavor, not something that gives you unlimited access to spells and resources. The player needs to understand that, and then it should be possible to work out a way in the fiction that makes this realistic in game.
Ludo ergo sum!
I agree that the best move is to talk to the player. However, I respectfully disagree with the following:
I would argue he has abused it. Maybe he just doesn't understand how royalty used to work back in the day, but only an irresponsible "party animal" heir to a kingdom would act the way this guy does. Using the king's men for his own gain? Treating the royal library as his own personal book collection? Hitting up daddy for gold and aid instead of standing on his own two feet? These are traits usually portrayed in the "bad prince" in a fictional story where there is a good kid and a bad kid. He's acting like the prodigal son in the old Bible story, not the good son.
Now maybe his background says that he is a playboy with no real talent for the crown, but the OP doesn't say this. It seems like this player is using "crown prince" as an "I win" button. You don't get to do that.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
When I read the OP, I really don't see that he is abiding anything. I agree that if that is the problem it would be a good idea to somehow limit him, and that one way of doing that could be "learn to live without daddy". But we know very little of what the player uses the spells, spies and guards for. It can be perfectly sound stuff. That doesn't mean it works in the campaign though. It sounds to me that this player has managed to take control of to much "resources" and that the OP's question really is how to limit him. It sounds like the campaign on the whole goes well, and that they want to continue playing. Maybe I'm completely off, but if I where allowed to be a crown Prince and daddy kept giving me everything I asked for in my quest to save the world, why should I stop?
Ludo ergo sum!
Increase cost of everything to him as people know he is loaded. Have a falling out with the monarchy. Being in an adventuring party with little to no guard wouldn't be too realistic so if there aren't many have assassins and kidnappers attack. You can also have the king say that adventuring is not something that is a very noble cause so he has to give it up or be cut off from support of the family. Take his rightful place and stop all the adventuring nonsense!