Whoa. So alot of the melee heavy classes can synergize with druid well?
Eh. Most of the interesting class features don't actually work with natural weapons and natural armor, and wild shape scaling is not all that exciting. Moon druids (with or without multiclassing) are really only a balance issue in tier 1, by level 5+ the moon druid is a decent pile of hit points but has poor ac and accuracy relative to regular classes.
Note that you can reverse that, you can't cast spells in wild shape but you can use other class abilities. A paladin-2/druid can use divine smite (and can do it with his multiclass druid slots, not that burning a 9th level spell slot on a 10d8 smite is a worthwhile use of that slot). A monk/druid can use unarmored defense, though that's still not going to get amazing AC.
Note that you can reverse that, you can't cast spells in wild shape but you can use other class abilities. A paladin-2/druid can use divine smite (and can do it with his multiclass druid slots, not that burning a 9th level spell slot on a 10d8 smite is a worthwhile use of that slot). A monk/druid can use unarmored defense, though that's still not going to get amazing AC.
Devine smite caps at 5d8
Oh right, missed that. Still not a good use of level 5+ spell slots, so not a big difference.
Whoa. So alot of the melee heavy classes can synergize with druid well?
Eh. Most of the interesting class features don't actually work with natural weapons and natural armor, and wild shape scaling is not all that exciting. Moon druids (with or without multiclassing) are really only a balance issue in tier 1, by level 5+ the moon druid is a decent pile of hit points but has poor ac and accuracy relative to regular classes.
There are so many things about multiclass that I dont know about.
You can expend the spell slots to heal though while in wild shape adding to the hp as well.
But... the druid can do that anyways, with or without multiclassing? Multiclassing will actually reduce the number of spellslots and healing he gets, unless he mcs into another full caster class (which would be stupid since he can't cast while wildshaped).
Yep. Rage and then wild shape. The rage carries over. You basically double the hp pools of the wild shapes.
say your a level 2 druid level 2 barbarian that wild shapes into a giant hyena. That’s 45 hp and most enemies can’t penetrate the resistances so the 45 becomes 90. You can wildshape 2x. That’s 180 hp while your normal hp is untouched. You also have reckless attack and since your giant hyena ac is only 12 might as well spam it so all your attacks are with advantage.
The rage carries over, but the beast likely has a lot less AC than the barbarian would have. So raging and shapeshifting increases your HP by decreasing your defenses... if you're hit twice as often you get a net zero, and you're actually weaker than a pure Moon Druid would be since the 2 levels of Barbarian cost you about 4 spellslots that the Druid could use on healing himself or using utility. Even worse, you loose an entire spell tier (Level 2 spells for you level 4 example).
Compared to the pure barbarian you delay Extra Attack by 2 levels,. which will significantly reduce your damage during these levels. And for both you're delaying your ASIs, which will hurt unless you already rolled an 18 in your stats.
Yep. Rage and then wild shape. The rage carries over. You basically double the hp pools of the wild shapes.
say your a level 2 druid level 2 barbarian that wild shapes into a giant hyena. That’s 45 hp and most enemies can’t penetrate the resistances so the 45 becomes 90. You can wildshape 2x. That’s 180 hp while your normal hp is untouched. You also have reckless attack and since your giant hyena ac is only 12 might as well spam it so all your attacks are with advantage.
The rage carries over, but the beast likely has a lot less AC than the barbarian would have. So raging and shapeshifting increases your HP by decreasing your defenses... if you're hit twice as often you get a net zero, and you're actually weaker than a pure Moon Druid would be since the 2 levels of Barbarian cost you about 4 spellslots that the Druid could use on healing himself or using utility. Even worse, you loose an entire spell tier (Level 2 spells for you level 4 example).
Compared to the pure barbarian you delay Extra Attack by 2 levels,. which will significantly reduce your damage during these levels. And for both you're delaying your ASIs, which will hurt unless you already rolled an 18 in your stats.
Yeah, anything that involves a moon druid needs to remember that moon druids have a power level glitch at level 2. Consider a fighter (Str 16, Con 12, dueling style) from level 2-5:
AC 18(chain, shield), HP 18 and 1d10+2 healing (total 25); eHP vs attack bonus +4 = 71; damage over 3 rounds against AC 12: 4 attacks(action surge), 2.8 hits for 9.5, 27 damage.
AC 19(splint, shield), HP 25 and 1d10+3 healing (total 33); eHP vs attack bonus +5 = 94; damage over 3 rounds against AC 12: 4 attacks, 2.8 hits for 14 (superiority), 39 damage.
AC 19(splint, shield), HP 32 and 1d10+4 healing (total 41); eHP vs attack bonus +5 = 117; damage over 3 rounds against AC 13: 4 attacks, 2.8 hits for 15, 42 damage.
AC 20(plate, shield), HP 39 and 1d10+5 healing (total 49); eHP vs attack bonus +6 = 140; damage over 3 rounds against AC 13: 8 attacks, 5.6 hits for 10.5 plus 3d8, 72 damage.
Now, let's look at the moon druid wild shape, shifted into a brown bear, and just using spell slots for healing (3 rounds, so 3 slots used)
AC 11, HP 34(twice) and 3d8 healing (total 81); eHP vs attack bonus +4 = 115; damage over 3 rounds against AC 12: 6 attacks, 4.5 hits for 9.5, 43 damage.
AC 11, HP 34(twice) and 5d8 healing (total 90); eHP vs attack bonus +5 = 120; damage over 3 rounds against AC 12: 6 attacks, 4.5 hits for 9.5, 43 damage.
AC 11, HP 34(twice) and 6d8 healing (total 95); eHP vs attack bonus +5 = 127; damage over 3 rounds against AC 13: 6 attacks, 4.2 hits for 9.5, 40 damage.
AC 11, HP 34(twice) and 8d8 healing (total 104); eHP vs attack bonus +6 = 130; damage over 3 rounds against AC 13: 6 attacks, 4.2 hits for 9.5, 40 damage.
So over those three levels, the fighter got +98% eHP and +167% dpr, the druid got +13% eHP and -7% dpr. The basic fix for this is not letting a level 2 druid turn into a CR 1 form.
Yeah, anything that involves a moon druid needs to remember that moon druids have a power level glitch at level 2. Consider a fighter (Str 16, Con 12, dueling style) from level 2-5:
AC 18(chain, shield), HP 18 and 1d10+2 healing (total 25); eHP vs attack bonus +4 = 71; damage over 3 rounds against AC 12: 4 attacks(action surge), 2.8 hits for 9.5, 27 damage.
AC 19(splint, shield), HP 25 and 1d10+3 healing (total 33); eHP vs attack bonus +5 = 94; damage over 3 rounds against AC 12: 4 attacks, 2.8 hits for 14 (superiority), 39 damage.
AC 19(splint, shield), HP 32 and 1d10+4 healing (total 41); eHP vs attack bonus +5 = 117; damage over 3 rounds against AC 13: 4 attacks, 2.8 hits for 15, 42 damage.
AC 20(plate, shield), HP 39 and 1d10+5 healing (total 49); eHP vs attack bonus +6 = 140; damage over 3 rounds against AC 13: 8 attacks, 5.6 hits for 10.5 plus 3d8, 72 damage.
Now, let's look at the moon druid wild shape, shifted into a brown bear, and just using spell slots for healing (3 rounds, so 3 slots used)
AC 11, HP 34(twice) and 3d8 healing (total 81); eHP vs attack bonus +4 = 115; damage over 3 rounds against AC 12: 6 attacks, 4.5 hits for 9.5, 43 damage.
AC 11, HP 34(twice) and 5d8 healing (total 90); eHP vs attack bonus +5 = 120; damage over 3 rounds against AC 12: 6 attacks, 4.5 hits for 9.5, 43 damage.
AC 11, HP 34(twice) and 6d8 healing (total 95); eHP vs attack bonus +5 = 127; damage over 3 rounds against AC 13: 6 attacks, 4.2 hits for 9.5, 40 damage.
AC 11, HP 34(twice) and 8d8 healing (total 104); eHP vs attack bonus +6 = 130; damage over 3 rounds against AC 13: 6 attacks, 4.2 hits for 9.5, 40 damage.
So over those three levels, the fighter got +98% eHP and +167% dpr, the druid got +13% eHP and -7% dpr. The basic fix for this is not letting a level 2 druid turn into a CR 1 form.
That's a lot of math, and I'm not going to lie, I felt overwhelmed. So dont let a level 2 druid turn into a cr 1 for if multiclassing a fighter?
The barbarian Druid is an hp tank. Ac of a barbarian 2/druid 2 is low. That’s why you might as well reckless attack every attack. You will attack with advantage every attack. You will be able to out tank any enemy.
let’s look at what total hp would be.
I purposed earlier a giant hyena for WS. That’s effectively 90 hp for each wildshape because of the barbarian damage reduction.
hp for levels
1) 12 (24 because of reduction)
2) 7 (14)
3) 5 (10)
4) 5 (10)
factor in con. Since it’s an hp build you will want either your best or second best stat in it. Wel play safe and say we put a 16 in it. That’s an additional 12 (24) All together we are looking at 262 total hp for a level 4 character that is constantly attacking with advantage.
My frustration with multiclassing is less mechanical and more that it's not narratively earned "aaand my rogue's just gonna get religion and go be a cleric now." Keep in mind that multiclassing is an optional rule, if you're worried about problems you can choose not to use it in your game.
That said, grappling builds can be annoying and often use multiclassing, but it's not OP and can be a lot of fun in my opinion.
^^^prepare for the can of worms backlash of the people who don’t want to put in “minimal RP” effort for that.
lol. I opened that thread of worms months ago. “Are feats being misused”
The barbarian Druid is an hp tank. Ac of a barbarian 2/druid 2 is low. That’s why you might as well reckless attack every attack. You will attack with advantage every attack. You will be able to out tank any enemy.
let’s look at what total hp would be.
I purposed earlier a giant hyena for WS. That’s effectively 90 hp for each wildshape because of the barbarian damage reduction.
hp for levels
1) 12 (24 because of reduction)
2) 7 (14)
3) 5 (10)
4) 5 (10)
factor in con. Since it’s an hp build you will want either your best or second best stat in it. Wel play safe and say we put a 16 in it. That’s an additional 12 (24) All together we are looking at 262 total hp for a level 4 character that is constantly attacking with advantage.
bar2/druid2 > druid 4
If you actually build the characters and let them fight you will notice that the pure Bear Barbarian on level 4 can kill this HP monster in melee... the pure druid looses in melee, but has access to level 2 spells. And hold person against a 2/2 barb druid is an "I win" button for the pure druid.
People tend to tremendously underestimate the single classes. Sure, multiclass characters can do more than single classes, that is the point of multiclassing. They won't get better than the single classes in their respective areas, though. If you want a really broken character go level 20 wizard for wish or level 20 Artificer to attune 6 magic items and get a +6 on all saves for it.
Mostly because my character has had a lot of experience, due to him being 50 million years old. has evidently evolved before us - he has the feat "magical evolution" which includes Eye light, it lets you shoot light out of your eyes at will, Transfiguranimagi, nothing known.
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Eh. Most of the interesting class features don't actually work with natural weapons and natural armor, and wild shape scaling is not all that exciting. Moon druids (with or without multiclassing) are really only a balance issue in tier 1, by level 5+ the moon druid is a decent pile of hit points but has poor ac and accuracy relative to regular classes.
Devine smite caps at 5d8
Oh right, missed that. Still not a good use of level 5+ spell slots, so not a big difference.
There are so many things about multiclass that I dont know about.
You can expend the spell slots to heal though while in wild shape adding to the hp as well.
Oh wow
But... the druid can do that anyways, with or without multiclassing? Multiclassing will actually reduce the number of spellslots and healing he gets, unless he mcs into another full caster class (which would be stupid since he can't cast while wildshaped).
The rage carries over, but the beast likely has a lot less AC than the barbarian would have. So raging and shapeshifting increases your HP by decreasing your defenses... if you're hit twice as often you get a net zero, and you're actually weaker than a pure Moon Druid would be since the 2 levels of Barbarian cost you about 4 spellslots that the Druid could use on healing himself or using utility. Even worse, you loose an entire spell tier (Level 2 spells for you level 4 example).
Compared to the pure barbarian you delay Extra Attack by 2 levels,. which will significantly reduce your damage during these levels. And for both you're delaying your ASIs, which will hurt unless you already rolled an 18 in your stats.
Ah.
Yeah, anything that involves a moon druid needs to remember that moon druids have a power level glitch at level 2. Consider a fighter (Str 16, Con 12, dueling style) from level 2-5:
Now, let's look at the moon druid wild shape, shifted into a brown bear, and just using spell slots for healing (3 rounds, so 3 slots used)
So over those three levels, the fighter got +98% eHP and +167% dpr, the druid got +13% eHP and -7% dpr. The basic fix for this is not letting a level 2 druid turn into a CR 1 form.
That's a lot of math, and I'm not going to lie, I felt overwhelmed. So dont let a level 2 druid turn into a cr 1 for if multiclassing a fighter?
Don't let a level 2 druid turn into a CR 1 form at all; limit CR to 1/2 until level 4. Beyond that level, it shouldn't be a serious problem.
The barbarian Druid is an hp tank. Ac of a barbarian 2/druid 2 is low. That’s why you might as well reckless attack every attack. You will attack with advantage every attack. You will be able to out tank any enemy.
let’s look at what total hp would be.
I purposed earlier a giant hyena for WS. That’s effectively 90 hp for each wildshape because of the barbarian damage reduction.
hp for levels
1) 12 (24 because of reduction)
2) 7 (14)
3) 5 (10)
4) 5 (10)
factor in con. Since it’s an hp build you will want either your best or second best stat in it. Wel play safe and say we put a 16 in it. That’s an additional 12 (24) All together we are looking at 262 total hp for a level 4 character that is constantly attacking with advantage.
bar2/druid2 > druid 4
^^^prepare for the can of worms backlash of the people who don’t want to put in “minimal RP” effort for that.
lol. I opened that thread of worms months ago. “Are feats being misused”
Blank
If you actually build the characters and let them fight you will notice that the pure Bear Barbarian on level 4 can kill this HP monster in melee... the pure druid looses in melee, but has access to level 2 spells. And hold person against a 2/2 barb druid is an "I win" button for the pure druid.
People tend to tremendously underestimate the single classes. Sure, multiclass characters can do more than single classes, that is the point of multiclassing. They won't get better than the single classes in their respective areas, though. If you want a really broken character go level 20 wizard for wish or level 20 Artificer to attune 6 magic items and get a +6 on all saves for it.
I have a SUPER OP triple-class - lvl 10 wizard, lvl 5 barbarian, lvl 5 druid.
Mostly because my character has had a lot of experience, due to him being 50 million years old. has evidently evolved before us - he has the feat "magical evolution" which includes Eye light, it lets you shoot light out of your eyes at will, Transfiguranimagi, nothing known.