If they ask you to repeat something you've already said, ask them to make an appropriate check (perception, intelligence for memory, wisdom/insight, etc) to see if their characters remember something.
Characters remember everything the players remember. If the player doesn't remember, there's a DC (insert number here) chance that the character MIGHT remember. Or better yet, always tell them something regardless of if they hit your number... this signifies them remembering incorrectly.
I know you said you wanted an infraction chart, but that seems like a horrible idea to me. That being said, your campaign, your rules. Good Luck with keeping your players in line! Let us know how it turns out.
I use DM damage, and it's usually me throwing a 1d4 at a player, those suckers hurt...
In all seriousness, I've only resorted to having to do a punishment to a player who didn't learn from having a talk, or any other rewards, he was always distracted on his phone. The rest of the table respected the rules of the table, but this one person was never paying attention. My punishment only for him was a base necrotic damage number that couldn't be healed but on a long rest per infraction of me specifically having to request him to get off his phone. Though, all 7 of the other players constantly asked him to get off the phone and engage. He left the group due to an uptick in his school-work and drama schedule, but the punishment helped him realize that not paying attention really mattered in our campaign. He walked into a fight as a wizard with 35 hit points against a young red dragon, and was struggling to survive.
That would be the only time a punishment system has worked, and also the only time I ever resorted to such a technique, because the other systems didn't work. He did eventually learn, but it took that dragon fight to push him over the edge...
I have to be honest, whenever I encounter other DMs who are really into punishing their players, or who get a huge kick out of being as sadistic to the players as possible, I kind of wonder--why are you even playing this? I get a sense of what the DM is getting out of it--a sense of control and power--but I have no idea why those players would keep playing with a DM who punishes them on a consistent basis, often for things they had no way of knowing they were doing "wrong." I mean, at the end of the day, tabletop roleplaying is about having fun, and if it's not fun, why do it? And if you can't talk to your group about why what's happening isn't fun for you (this includes players and DMs), then that's definitely a problem.
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DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder) Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
I have to be honest, whenever I encounter other DMs who are really into punishing their players, or who get a huge kick out of being as sadistic to the players as possible, I kind of wonder--why are you even playing this? I get a sense of what the DM is getting out of it--a sense of control and power--but I have no idea why those players would keep playing with a DM who punishes them on a consistent basis, often for things they had no way of knowing they were doing "wrong." I mean, at the end of the day, tabletop roleplaying is about having fun, and if it's not fun, why do it? And if you can't talk to your group about why what's happening isn't fun for you (this includes players and DMs), then that's definitely a problem.
Amen. I run into this kind of thing all the time with my internet friends, and I'm still trying to break one of my in-person friends of this habit.
Punishing your players for what you feel are bad habits, or acting like they need a reminder other than you actually reminding them like "Hey, Carl, you're being kind of loud again and everybody can't hear the room description or what the NPCs are saying because of it." is not a good plan - especially if they are family and friends.
That route is how you turn trying to play some D&D into a typical Monopoly game - everybody leaves grumpy, and probably somebody flipped the table or knocked the board off the table, because just the way the game is played becomes infuriating.
These "punishment" schemes are almost never received well, as it is a lot easier for the person receiving the punishment to feel like the one doling out punishment when "It's just a game" is being a jerk by doing so - which is exasperated by these punishments not being in the rule book, but intentionally added by the person that wants to dole them out. So the perception on the player side of this becomes "You're being a jerk and adding stupid punishments to the game" rather than "I'm being disruptive and you are trying to fix that problem."
As a DM I have implemented something that has worked wonderfully called the Meta-God. It is a mysterious eldritch God that can somehow sense when someone is using knowledge that they should know nothing of. It despises this in every form, and will punish those who break the laws of the world with lightning strikes summoned from the ethereal plane. The players are fully aware of this God and His Laws.
So for instance if you know someone is metagaming you can say "You hear the soft rumble of thunder in the distance..." If they continue to do so; "The thunder grows closer." If they still ignore the warnings, BAM!! Lightning strikes them from nowhere for 1d4/6/10 depending on how harmful the metagaming was.
It works well, gives them fair warning of the consequences, and provides incentive to not metagame.
To counter metagaming, I simply challenge my characters to play pre-gen characters, or play something outside of their role. I usually don't mind too much min/max because I end up countering it in the game. Warrior forced to make will or int saves, kind of thing. Players getting robbed if they fail a certain scene, etc.. but I always make it subtle.
Infraction list is a bad idea. People won't respond well. Your best bet is to incorporate it into the world, if someone's chatting while their character is standing on a busy street, pick pocket them. If they are chatting during a fight attack them.
Thanks Everyone, I've made a Small Infraction Chart, and I'm Implementing your ideas, once you get enough infraction points, You get negative character Buffs
This is the exact opposite of what everyone's been telling you, so I'm not sure you're actually willing to be helped on this, but here goes nothing on another attempt:
I'm also in the increasingly large "you need to talk to them and resolve this like adults" camp. All the more so because you said these are your family and family friends. If your group explodes because of bad decision making, there might be more at stake than your D&D game!
You say in your first post that your group are treating you like the one who has the problem. Your approach to the problem being to dole out punishments, even in the face of near-universal advice condemning that idea, suggests that you're not 100% in the right like you think you are. If you're not already part of the problem (which you might well be), you'll definitely be part of the problem once you implement your infraction rules.
On the one hand, you're right: their behaviour at the table is a problem, IF it's damaging to your fun. On the other hand, YOU need to be more open to the way your players game. If they like a more relaxed atmosphere, maybe you're the one who needs to offer some compromise. Maybe not. You won't find out how willing they are to accommodate your own needs unless you have a clear and frank discussion.
Talk to them. Tell them politely how you want to run the game and expect it to be played. You might be surprised to learn that they have feedback of their own about the way you DM. If that's so, you all need to compromise to find a middle ground where you're all comfortable playing. If you can't, you'd better break up the game before you end up breaking up the family. :P
Talk to them. Tell them politely how you want to run the game and expect it to be played. You might be surprised to learn that they have feedback of their own about the way you DM. If that's so, you all need to compromise to find a middle ground where you're all comfortable playing. If you can't, you'd better break up the game before you end up breaking up the family. :P
And next time, think about starting things off with a Session 0 to make sure you're all on the same page to begin with :)
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DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder) Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
- "Oh I will kill these guys next round..." Things like that are usually ooc and basically change the behavior of what other PCs might otherwise do without hearing that.
I reduced the amount of hit point chatter at my table by using a colour-coded system of tokens. If a character has a yellow token, they've lost at least 25% of their hit points. Orange is fifty percent. Red 75%. My players still have a sense of how well they're doing against monsters or which of their allies need urgent medical attention, but are discouraged from reducing the game to numbers. This is a system that it's probably easiest to implement with miniatures play so your mileage may vary. I use magnetic status markers by Alea Tools, but a cheap solution is to buy a bunch of different coloured loom bands.
-Meta thinking: I only describe monsters, names only come with a kn. check, same goes for armor/AC. They like to ask for the AC, but that only reduces the enemy to a bunch of numbers.
I'm more or less the same, but I'll give my players the AC after it becomes unreasonable to hide it from them. If one of the characters got a 16 and it missed, but the 15 they rolled next turn hit, I'll happily remind any player at the table that the monster's AC is 15. Once the information isn't strictly secret anymore, making it public is one way I can help speed up turn resolution. Before they know exactly what the AC is I'll also happily remind players "you know it must be at least X, because so far that's the lowest roll you've had that hit it."
- "Oh I will kill these guys next round..." Things like that are usually ooc and basically change the behavior of what other PCs might otherwise do without hearing that.
I reduced the amount of hit point chatter at my table by using a colour-coded system of tokens. If a character has a yellow token, they've lost at least 25% of their hit points. Orange is fifty percent. Red 75%. My players still have a sense of how well they're doing against monsters or which of their allies need urgent medical attention, but are discouraged from reducing the game to numbers. This is a system that it's probably easiest to implement with miniatures play so your mileage may vary. I use magnetic status markers by Alea Tools, but a cheap solution is to buy a bunch of different coloured loom bands.
When the players reduce to below 50%, I refer to them as bloodied, and when they get close to 0, I refer to them in descriptive terms like "having a hard time standing" or "they look ROUGH"
-Meta thinking: I only describe monsters, names only come with a kn. check, same goes for armor/AC. They like to ask for the AC, but that only reduces the enemy to a bunch of numbers.
I'm more or less the same, but I'll give my players the AC after it becomes unreasonable to hide it from them. If one of the characters got a 16 and it missed, but the 15 they rolled next turn hit, I'll happily remind any player at the table that the monster's AC is 15. Once the information isn't strictly secret anymore, making it public is one way I can help speed up turn resolution. Before they know exactly what the AC is I'll also happily remind players "you know it must be at least X, because so far that's the lowest roll you've had that hit it."
I like to use Matt Mercer's way of helping players come to the AC "That just hits" means they equaled the AC; "That just misses" means they were 1 below the AC. So it's another way to indirectly tell them the AC, without the need of a knowledge based check...
It's also how they meta game. If it's about monsters, require them to use their proficiencies in Knowledge of a bunch of things nature, arcana, religion.
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The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
What about giving your NPCs bonuses instead of punishing the players? Hand out advantage to their stealth/attack/saving throw rolls, and so on. Say it's in response to the the players who are being noisy or inattentive - have their metaspeak bleed over into their character's dialogue. Have NPCs think they're insane because of how they're acting.
This is what I do in my game. I took this from a DMs Guild adventure that I saw in preview mode. Don't remember which one it was at the moment but I'll look back through it again if there's interest. This is my house rule, which I invoke only when I have trouble with people focusing on the game. I use it because several people in my group don't like when we have too many distractions that hold up the game. That said, I've never reached the level where the stated affect takes place in any game. So it just serves to help my game stay focused. But maybe you could riff off of this idea...
The d8 of Attention!!! - A simple, seemingly harmless d8 is placed on the table at the beginning of the game. The 8 is face up on the die. When a player is doing something too distracting, something which is drawing too much attention away from the progress of the game (ruled so by the DM), the die drops a number. If the number drops below 1, something terrible happens that affects the entire party! This terrible event is made up on the spot by the DM and is no-holds-barred! It can be as awful as the DM wants! Your nemesis might appear and automatically take your most prized magic items and then promptly vanish. A favored NPC might be consumed by an evil god and explode, sending cursed, projectile bone-shrapnel at the surrounding PCs. A nearby, dainty butterfly may suddenly polymorph into the most horrific ancient dragon never heard of! BEWARE! And pay attention... Once a terrible event has transpired, the d8 returns face up to the number 8 and we begin again!
Perhaps the players in question could all be subjected to a form of permanent madness unknown to them that might flare up when they meta game. this could something like temp debuff, remove a buff, temp disadvantage, or if it gets real bad a round of being stunned in battle. For a more positive effect work into the lore of the world maybe it's something they have to solve as part of a campaign (when they get themselves truly under control an opportunity might present it self). the idea of messing with monster stats are great too. also cursed items are fun too; maybe meta gaming causes undiscovered items to have a higher chance of having a minor curse attached to it (a remove curse/ restoration spell might be able to remove it at times or after a few uses/ higher level casting). In other words make is a game mechanic the players can work with.
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If they ask you to repeat something you've already said, ask them to make an appropriate check (perception, intelligence for memory, wisdom/insight, etc) to see if their characters remember something.
Characters remember everything the players remember. If the player doesn't remember, there's a DC (insert number here) chance that the character MIGHT remember. Or better yet, always tell them something regardless of if they hit your number... this signifies them remembering incorrectly.
I know you said you wanted an infraction chart, but that seems like a horrible idea to me. That being said, your campaign, your rules. Good Luck with keeping your players in line! Let us know how it turns out.
I use DM damage, and it's usually me throwing a 1d4 at a player, those suckers hurt...
In all seriousness, I've only resorted to having to do a punishment to a player who didn't learn from having a talk, or any other rewards, he was always distracted on his phone. The rest of the table respected the rules of the table, but this one person was never paying attention. My punishment only for him was a base necrotic damage number that couldn't be healed but on a long rest per infraction of me specifically having to request him to get off his phone. Though, all 7 of the other players constantly asked him to get off the phone and engage. He left the group due to an uptick in his school-work and drama schedule, but the punishment helped him realize that not paying attention really mattered in our campaign. He walked into a fight as a wizard with 35 hit points against a young red dragon, and was struggling to survive.
That would be the only time a punishment system has worked, and also the only time I ever resorted to such a technique, because the other systems didn't work. He did eventually learn, but it took that dragon fight to push him over the edge...
I have to be honest, whenever I encounter other DMs who are really into punishing their players, or who get a huge kick out of being as sadistic to the players as possible, I kind of wonder--why are you even playing this? I get a sense of what the DM is getting out of it--a sense of control and power--but I have no idea why those players would keep playing with a DM who punishes them on a consistent basis, often for things they had no way of knowing they were doing "wrong." I mean, at the end of the day, tabletop roleplaying is about having fun, and if it's not fun, why do it? And if you can't talk to your group about why what's happening isn't fun for you (this includes players and DMs), then that's definitely a problem.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
"I encourage peace."
Punishing your players for what you feel are bad habits, or acting like they need a reminder other than you actually reminding them like "Hey, Carl, you're being kind of loud again and everybody can't hear the room description or what the NPCs are saying because of it." is not a good plan - especially if they are family and friends.
That route is how you turn trying to play some D&D into a typical Monopoly game - everybody leaves grumpy, and probably somebody flipped the table or knocked the board off the table, because just the way the game is played becomes infuriating.
These "punishment" schemes are almost never received well, as it is a lot easier for the person receiving the punishment to feel like the one doling out punishment when "It's just a game" is being a jerk by doing so - which is exasperated by these punishments not being in the rule book, but intentionally added by the person that wants to dole them out. So the perception on the player side of this becomes "You're being a jerk and adding stupid punishments to the game" rather than "I'm being disruptive and you are trying to fix that problem."
Very well stated.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
As a DM I have implemented something that has worked wonderfully called the Meta-God. It is a mysterious eldritch God that can somehow sense when someone is using knowledge that they should know nothing of. It despises this in every form, and will punish those who break the laws of the world with lightning strikes summoned from the ethereal plane. The players are fully aware of this God and His Laws.
So for instance if you know someone is metagaming you can say "You hear the soft rumble of thunder in the distance..." If they continue to do so; "The thunder grows closer." If they still ignore the warnings, BAM!! Lightning strikes them from nowhere for 1d4/6/10 depending on how harmful the metagaming was.
It works well, gives them fair warning of the consequences, and provides incentive to not metagame.
To counter metagaming, I simply challenge my characters to play pre-gen characters, or play something outside of their role. I usually don't mind too much min/max because I end up countering it in the game. Warrior forced to make will or int saves, kind of thing. Players getting robbed if they fail a certain scene, etc.. but I always make it subtle.
Infraction list is a bad idea. People won't respond well. Your best bet is to incorporate it into the world, if someone's chatting while their character is standing on a busy street, pick pocket them. If they are chatting during a fight attack them.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
It's also how they meta game. If it's about monsters, require them to use their proficiencies in Knowledge of a bunch of things nature, arcana, religion.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
What about giving your NPCs bonuses instead of punishing the players? Hand out advantage to their stealth/attack/saving throw rolls, and so on. Say it's in response to the the players who are being noisy or inattentive - have their metaspeak bleed over into their character's dialogue. Have NPCs think they're insane because of how they're acting.
If it is during a combat scenario, or any time/reaction based scenario have time continue to progress whether or not they are paying attention.
Do not expect people to be smart, but do not allow them to be stupid. If there is one thing I have learned it is this.
This is what I do in my game. I took this from a DMs Guild adventure that I saw in preview mode. Don't remember which one it was at the moment but I'll look back through it again if there's interest. This is my house rule, which I invoke only when I have trouble with people focusing on the game. I use it because several people in my group don't like when we have too many distractions that hold up the game. That said, I've never reached the level where the stated affect takes place in any game. So it just serves to help my game stay focused. But maybe you could riff off of this idea...
The d8 of Attention!!! - A simple, seemingly harmless d8 is placed on the table at the beginning of the game. The 8 is face up on the die. When a player is doing something too distracting, something which is drawing too much attention away from the progress of the game (ruled so by the DM), the die drops a number. If the number drops below 1, something terrible happens that affects the entire party! This terrible event is made up on the spot by the DM and is no-holds-barred! It can be as awful as the DM wants! Your nemesis might appear and automatically take your most prized magic items and then promptly vanish. A favored NPC might be consumed by an evil god and explode, sending cursed, projectile bone-shrapnel at the surrounding PCs. A nearby, dainty butterfly may suddenly polymorph into the most horrific ancient dragon never heard of! BEWARE! And pay attention... Once a terrible event has transpired, the d8 returns face up to the number 8 and we begin again!
"What you saw belongs to you. A story doesn't live until it is imagined in someone's mind."
― Brandon Sanderson, The Way of Kings
Perhaps the players in question could all be subjected to a form of permanent madness unknown to them that might flare up when they meta game. this could something like temp debuff, remove a buff, temp disadvantage, or if it gets real bad a round of being stunned in battle. For a more positive effect work into the lore of the world maybe it's something they have to solve as part of a campaign (when they get themselves truly under control an opportunity might present it self). the idea of messing with monster stats are great too. also cursed items are fun too; maybe meta gaming causes undiscovered items to have a higher chance of having a minor curse attached to it (a remove curse/ restoration spell might be able to remove it at times or after a few uses/ higher level casting). In other words make is a game mechanic the players can work with.