For ridding the people of temporary versions of conditions like blindness, deafness, magically-induced poison, etc. I don't see many issue with Lesser Restoration as is. However, keep in mind that Cure Disease in previous editions was a 3rd level spell, which put it on par with Remove Curse. 5th edition made the design decision to simplify a lot of the save-or-suck/save-or-die abilities by making most of it curable with one 2nd-level spell.
I agree that L.Restoration simplifies game play, but it's also clear that it creates an expectation from the players that, essentially, magic solves everything without any complications and with only fairly low expenditure of resources. I think this makes sense for the roll-playing, combat-oriented players who mostly just want to beat up the "Bad Guy" and make off with the treasure, much like World of Warcraft or most rogue-like CRPGs. I don't think it makes a lot less sense for games and players who want a heavy emphasis on role-playing, interacting with interesting NPCs, and a world that bears some semblance to the world we actually live in. There's no logical reason why clerics aren't all over the place, in almost every family if getting rid of disease and poison only takes a single 2nd-level spell slot without the use of any $$-burdened resources. There's no incentive to anyone to create or use slow-acting poisons. And there's no reason why most people would take disability or illness seriously because almost no one would die from those things. Conversely, it would also make life more brutal in other ways, because the population growth would be far higher than it was in the actual Middle Ages, and competition for land would be far more intense, leading to far more wars over territory.
If you read the class descriptions in the PHB, you'll find that characters with class levels are supposed to be very rare. Most acolyte NPCs can cast cleric spells, but only to a very limited degree. Neither a gladiator or a veteran are technically fighters, even if they seem like they should be. Players are often supposed to be comparatively strong to NPCs of similar hit die total. Given their implied rarity, not everyone can have access to a level 3+ cleric at any given time.
Another facet you could use is to not give an affliction a designated type, and instead give a certain way to cure it. I recently hit my group of 14th-level players with a drug addiction. It wasn't a disease or poison or anything like that, but it was more comparable to madness (see "going mad" in the DMG) with a mechanical downside. They cured it easily with the resources they had (lots of diamonds on hand for revivify ground to dust for greater restoration, its specific cure), but none of the inexpensive options would've worked.
Illusions can block vision, but they don't cause the blinded condition. Same goes for if a creature has lost its eyes; that calls for regenerate.
Back to the initial question. Is Lesser Restoration too strong? No, not by most people's standards at least. Is a good idea to limit it's functionality? Possibly, sure. If you want to play a gritty, dangerous game concept. You could add in all the optional rules for Combat, such as Injuries and Massive Damage, etc. If everyone is on board for this type of play, do it up. I just don't see why you would come here and argue so vehemently about it's effects as stated.
The first time I played D&D, I was told a Wizard cast 1 spell a day then used his Crossbow or Staff if he was suicidal. I didn't care for that concept but, I know some people were still nuts about D&D. Yes, things have been changed to appeal to a larger demographic, for better or worse. I personally like the state of D&D mostly as it is currently.
It should be noted that the only NPC humanoids that have Lesser Restoration are the Priest and War Priest. Sounds like a lot, but in reading Descent into Avernus, I can count the priests on one hand, unless there's a bunch unassociated with any religion. A large city would still be at risk of highly contagious diseases. You could also keep Lesser Restoration as it is but rule that for some particular nasty/magical diseases, you need to upcast the spell, which makes it harder to cure on a large scale. Another idea is to have Lesser Restoration deal with most of the symptoms while not fully curing you. You'd need an upcast or a quest for a cure to fully get rid of the disease, and in the meantime be casting Lesser Restoration each day to prolong yourself.
It should be noted that the only NPC humanoids that have Lesser Restoration are the Priest and War Priest.
Spell Swaps. One way to customize an NPC spellcaster is to replace one or more of its spells. You can substitute any spell on the NPC’s spell list with a different spell of the same level from the same spell list. Swapping spells in this manner doesn’t alter an NPC’s challenge rating.
Which means anything with level 3+ spellcasting as cleric or druid can do it.
It should be noted that the only NPC humanoids that have Lesser Restoration are the Priest and War Priest.
Spell Swaps. One way to customize an NPC spellcaster is to replace one or more of its spells. You can substitute any spell on the NPC’s spell list with a different spell of the same level from the same spell list. Swapping spells in this manner doesn’t alter an NPC’s challenge rating.
Which means anything with level 3+ spellcasting as cleric or druid can do it.
Which is precisely why it makes no sense that, in a world where actions have consequences and intelligent NPCs are more than robot-like dispensaries of items and information, that not every NPC family with a daughter/son/non-binary child should be clamoring to get one of their children into religious school to become a Cleric. IOW, Clerics galore anywhere that a temple to a non-death god exists. If the gods are real and offer a path to cheaply prevent people from dying of any number of illnesses and conditions with just a low level spell slot that is replenished every long rest, there is absolutely no reason that most people would ever eschew faith since the benefit is guaranteed and very cost-effective every day of the year.
It should be noted that the only NPC humanoids that have Lesser Restoration are the Priest and War Priest.
Spell Swaps. One way to customize an NPC spellcaster is to replace one or more of its spells. You can substitute any spell on the NPC’s spell list with a different spell of the same level from the same spell list. Swapping spells in this manner doesn’t alter an NPC’s challenge rating.
Which means anything with level 3+ spellcasting as cleric or druid can do it.
Which is precisely why it makes no sense that, in a world where actions have consequences and intelligent NPCs are more than robot-like dispensaries of items and information, that not every NPC family with a daughter/son/non-binary child should be clamoring to get one of their children into religious school to become a Cleric. IOW, Clerics galore anywhere that a temple to a non-death god exists. If the gods are real and offer a path to cheaply prevent people from dying of any number of illnesses and conditions with just a low level spell slot that is replenished every long rest, there is absolutely no reason that most people would ever eschew faith since the benefit is guaranteed and very cost-effective every day of the year.
Because even in real world not everyone who enters the church gets to become a cleric/priest. If we just look at the Priest stat block, they are a CR 2; meaning any tom or harry that walk of the street and into a temple are not, bampf, getting lesser restoration. Just because the spell has little material component to it does not mean that everyone with a body will e able to reach the requirements to cast it. If you choose to make it that easy in your game, than that's on you. But by the MM, and PHB it is not something that just any person can obtain simply. Getting to level 2/3 takes a decent amount of time for a non-adventurer
As someone said earlier, you've now gotten even more examples of why lesser restoration is not over powered, and does not prevent plagues (look at the comments you replied to) but you just seem to be looking for an echo chamber than an actual discussion
Because even in real world not everyone who enters the church gets to become a cleric/priest. If we just look at the Priest stat block, they are a CR 2; meaning any tom or harry that walk of the street and into a temple are not, bampf, getting lesser restoration. Just because the spell has little material component to it does not mean that everyone with a body will e able to reach the requirements to cast it. If you choose to make it that easy in your game, than that's on you. But by the MM, and PHB it is not something that just any person can obtain simply. Getting to level 2/3 takes a decent amount of time for a non-adventurer
No, your are missing my point. You're applying real world modern thought patterns to a fictional world where magic, as written, is all powerful. In modern times, a lot fewer people go to church or participate in organized religion because science has emerged and proven to be more reliable than religion for a wide range of practical, everyday applications. But in a world where the evidence of divine intervention is frequently seen and where access to divine blessings via spells can be obtained at a cheap price, the situation would be much closer to one that I describe. People do what is effective to solve their problems if they are aware of the solution. If you can just magic-away your grandmother's poor eyesight or your best friend's diabetes, wouldn't you (or some family member) do what you can to accomplish that? The flexibility and money-free aspects of LR are just too good and obvious to ignore. Even if it took a person 6 years to go from being a neophyte level 0 follower of Lliira to a level 3 follower of Lliira, the super effective, always available benefits would clearly be worth it to you, your family and your friends. The rewards for joining the priesthood or nunnery in the real world don't compare, on an everyday level, with what is obtainable in the D&D universe at all. Plus you, know, the celibacy thing doesn't seem to exist in many D&D religions.
Which is precisely why it makes no sense that, in a world where actions have consequences and intelligent NPCs are more than robot-like dispensaries of items and information, that not every NPC family with a daughter/son/non-binary child should be clamoring to get one of their children into religious school to become a Cleric.
That doesn't mean they succeed. PCs learn at cinematic rates, but that doesn't mean everyone does.
I'd also point out that, while yes, gods in D&D are unambiguously real (except for Eberron), that doesn't mean they are omnipotent or omnipresent. And on Eberron, where theoretically anyone could become a cleric, basic magic is common but advanced magic is incredibly rare (and often monopolized).
Because even in real world not everyone who enters the church gets to become a cleric/priest. If we just look at the Priest stat block, they are a CR 2; meaning any tom or harry that walk of the street and into a temple are not, bampf, getting lesser restoration. Just because the spell has little material component to it does not mean that everyone with a body will e able to reach the requirements to cast it. If you choose to make it that easy in your game, than that's on you. But by the MM, and PHB it is not something that just any person can obtain simply. Getting to level 2/3 takes a decent amount of time for a non-adventurer
No, your are missing my point. You're applying real world modern thought patterns to a fictional world where magic, as written, is all powerful. In modern times, a lot fewer people go to church or participate in organized religion because science has emerged and proven to be more reliable than religion for a wide range of practical, everyday applications. But in a world where the evidence of divine intervention is frequently seen and where access to divine blessings via spells can be obtained at a cheap price, the situation would be much closer to one that I describe. People do what is effective to solve their problems if they are aware of the solution. If you can just magic-away your grandmother's poor eyesight or your best friend's diabetes, wouldn't you (or some family member) do what you can to accomplish that? The flexibility and money-free aspects of LR are just too good and obvious to ignore. Even if it took a person 6 years to go from being a neophyte level 0 follower of Lliira to a level 3 follower of Lliira, the super effective, always available benefits would clearly be worth it to you, your family and your friends. The rewards for joining the priesthood or nunnery in the real world don't compare, on an everyday level, with what is obtainable in the D&D universe at all. Plus you, know, the celibacy thing doesn't seem to exist in many D&D religions.
If you want to go with that logic, then why does lower, middle, or upper class exist at all? Why would anyone be a farmer, just spend a few years as a druid and you too could cast Plant growth, making all farmers basically irrelevant. Why be a merchant who travels between cities, a few years as a wizard and you could cast teleportation circle. Why would any foot soldier want to be anything less than a Barbarian who could shrug off damage. Why practice animal husbandry when you could just be a ranger and speak to the animals to get what you want?
The problem is all of the above take time, resources, and education to get to. On top of that, player characters are explicitly stated in the books as being uncanny and rare. Besides that, you gotta take the good with the bad.
Disease and poison is literally the least of everyone's concerns in Faerun. How about the 100 years of the Spell plague, where the land literally caught fire and wiped out entire nations with no warning. Sections of land just disappeared into the ethereal realm and other realities. What about the time the Gods walked the land and waged holy war against each other leading entire armies against each other, casualties that make WW2 look like a joke. What about ANY lich? A being that is ageless and manipulates events from afar? How do you know who is under his control and who is not? In theory a Lich could cast Geas 3 times a day, plus an additional 4 times for extend duration, for 30 days at a time, magically compelling all of those people to do whatever he desires.
If your point is that Magic as written is too strong, no duh. That is the point. But, Lesser Restoration is basically a useless spell in the face of the things above. It simply to makes life a little easier for those who can cast it. If your point is, why wouldn't everyone and anyone just become a cleric, then I think you misunderstand who faith works. Cleric's power comes from their devotion to their deity, and if the deity decides not to give that power, you are kind of just wasting your time from your perspective. Why do Farmers worship gods of the lands and fertility? Is not their devotion worth recognizing them as clerics? You don't just get magic powers by whispering a few prayers.
There seems to be a disconnect between how available magic is and how much it is worth.
I may be wrong in assuming, but it seems to me that OP believes that spellcasters are commonplace and that the standard for currency is the gold piece. Neither are the case for the majority of the populace. A commoner is your everyday adult person, and if (s)he were to use coin for expenses, it would most likely be dealt in copper or, at most, silver. Gold is only used by the more successful merchants, adventurers and maybe nobility.
If you look at spellcasting services in the PHB, over in the Expenses section, this type of service is dealt in not only gold pieces, but a LOT of it, and the price spikes steeply as the spell level rises. Commoners would almost NEVER be able to get this type of service without a serious amount of goodwill (from a player character) or knowing an incriminating secret that said caster somehow can't otherwise deal with.
Does anyone know how long it takes a typical NPC spellcaster to aquire their ability to cast spells? Anyone recall the elderly wizard trope? Acquiring this kind of power takes not only a lot of time, but an aptitude to be able to do it at all. There's a reason why a stereotypical barbarian cannot become a wizard, and mechanically that falls into the multiclassing rules. Commoners have 10 in every score, so they technically don't qualify for any classes.
Players are the only exception to the rule, as they can start in a class they don't qualify for, but then they can't multiclass themselves. How many sit at your table at a time? I'd be willing to bet they don't make up 1% of a single town's population.
There seems to be a disconnect between how available magic is and how much it is worth.
[Excellent points all round]
I think this is absolutely the fundamental point behind this discussion. It's easy to think that because our characters are low level - and we know how powerful they can become, it means that they're not special or powerful when they start out.
A level 1 character is still exceptional comparative to the general population. Just because a low-level spell is low level, doesn't mean it isn't spectacular.
I think the issue I've seen in campaigns, is when this isn't the case. When every Dick, Tom and Harry can cast magic and have potions on hand. When the tavern master offers gold pieces as a reward for clearing rats from the cellar, rather than the couple of copper pieces that work is worth.
The rules state: 'It might be possible to find someone willing to Cast a Spell in exchange for coin or favors, but it is rarely easy and no established pay rates exist.'
I don't think every outlying hamlet with a small shrine to the local deity should have a cleric that can cast spells. I don't think every local merchant should sell potions and magical equipment. I think that for most commoners, travelling to a nearby city to pay a priest to cure their disease, would probably cost their life savings - if they could even fathom such a journey or expense.
I've played in high magic worlds, where every local militia has a battle priest that can rain down fire on troublesome ruffians. And it just makes the concept of magic ordinary - when it should be astonishing.
Yes - the population can know magic is real. They can know that the gods exist, and that prayers are answered by their faithful. But those chosen faithful should be treated with the absolute reverence - or fear - that they deserve, because there's likely only a handful in the world.
I like Rexir's point about NPC Spellcasters and the time it took them to learn their spells. I always felt that learning their first cantrips would have been a life transforming moment; after potentially yearsof hard study, practice or prayer. I've played in too many worlds where Ray of Frost is treated as a parlor trick by commoners, or being able to cast Light out of nowhere wouldn't terrify most people.
I think a big part of world building is establishing that mundane things for players, are actually extraordinary feats for most. And that extends beyond magic.
There seems to be a disconnect between how available magic is and how much it is worth.
I may be wrong in assuming, but it seems to me that OP believes that spellcasters are commonplace and that the standard for currency is the gold piece. Neither are the case for the majority of the populace. A commoner is your everyday adult person, and if (s)he were to use coin for expenses, it would most likely be dealt in copper or, at most, silver. Gold is only used by the more successful merchants, adventurers and maybe nobility.
I am not arguing that spellcasters have to be common, but when the gods create a strong incentive for the people to be faithful to them, then the logical result is that many people will at least try to become spellcasters if at all possible. The high cost of the PHB lists is principally a guideline used to rein in PCs from hiring underling spellcasters all the time. (Because that could break the game.) And even if that cost were accurate, doesn't that just create an even greater incentive for people to get one of their children to become accepted as a Cleric of __________ so that they can have access to disease-removal/poison-removal/healing magic for free? Or at a significant discount?
The process of becoming a Cleric is not at all the same as that associated with becoming a Wizard. The important thing is faith and doing what your temple/order elders tell you to do. It's not about studying difficult languages to reconfigure and re-program the weave. Since we have no rules whatsoever about adherence and divergence from deities, it's not illogical to conclude that deities aren't going to be micromanaging or particularly being all that careful re: their low level worshippers. And why would a deity not want more worshippers?
I suppose part of what I'm asking through this thread is: why are we so attached to stories where the PCs are the only humanoids with what are effectively superpowers? Isn't that rather parsimonious and self-aggrandizing? Why can we not accept the implications of a world where many people, not just the PCs, have access to those same superpowers, just at a lesser and perfectly reasonable scale? Is it just for the sake of maintaining the tenuous boundaries of the game world in our heads?
Ultimately, it matters little what I say on this thread because we know that Wizards is making a lot of money by catering to the wide swath of gamers who, like most commenters it seems, like treating D&D like a computer RPG. If that's the case, of course NPCs shouldn't have PC powers b/c the agency of the teeny tiniest subset of the population is all that needs to make sense. NPCs are just cardboard cutouts meant to service or punish the PCs. What a very convenient construction of the world, from the perspective of the players, right? By all means, more bread and circuses, dear reader! Bread! Circuses! Who doesn't like a good distraction??
So you are saying your point in summary is that those that think it’s not over powered are playing D&D wrong?
You said you felt it limited your options as DM - people countered with rules from the game and ideas for creative solutions.
you said you wouldn’t need creative solutions if the spell was balanced - people gave you many examples of spells more imbalanced or reasons why it’s not
you told them they were wrong and used real world examples of how a world would work if it were real to show it was broken - people countered why those rules don’t apply in D&D and that’s not how it works.
you insisted it should though and was game breaking when thought of that way - people used real world examples and logic to explain why it should work that way
you told people they can’t apply real world logic to D&D despite its what you had been doing from the start, or if they did it had to only be your logic.
you then said the problem is gamers and the commenters here are clearly like that and No true Scotsmanned your whole point while saying your entire point was something different.
dude you have probably forgotten more about RPG’s than I know, but do everyone a favour and close this thread.
I am not arguing that spellcasters have to be common, but when the gods create a strong incentive for the people to be faithful to them, then the logical result is that many people will at least try to become spellcasters if at all possible.
The process of becoming a Cleric is not at all the same as that associated with becoming a Wizard. The important thing is faith and doing what your temple/order elders tell you to do.
That's the thing: it's not at all possible for many people. They don't have the extraordinary Widsom to fathom the divine purposes of the gods. But it's not just an ability thing; more than that, they just simply aren't chosen to.
From the PHB: 'The gods don’t grant this power to everyone who seeks it, but only to those chosen to fulfill a high calling.'
If a Cleric can cast spells, they're special. Chosen to receive the power of their deity by their deity. Your argument: 'it's not illogical to conclude that deities aren't going to be micromanaging or particularly being all that careful re: their low level worshippers' is just a wrong assumption. The deity chooses the cleric - not the other way around.
Regarding your points on why the world seems to revolve around, and cater to, the players: it's because that's who the story is about. Besides, it's not only the PCs that have 'superpowers' - many characters the players may meet will have equal or greater abilities than they do - all with their own motivations.
But just because common NPCs aren't 'extraordinary' from an ability perspective, doesn't mean they don't have purpose or meaning, except to 'serve or punish' the PCs. They flesh out the world, they help breathe life into the story, they're part of the fabric of the narrative.
The PHB goes on to say: 'Not every acolyte or officiant at a temple or shrine is a cleric. Some priests are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their gods’ will through prayer and sacrifice, not by magic and strength of arms. '
It's almost as though this entire section of the PHB on Clerics was written just for you!
I am not arguing that spellcasters have to be common, but when the gods create a strong incentive for the people to be faithful to them, then the logical result is that many people will at least try to become spellcasters if at all possible. The high cost of the PHB lists is principally a guideline used to rein in PCs from hiring underling spellcasters all the time. (Because that could break the game.) And even if that cost were accurate, doesn't that just create an even greater incentive for people to get one of their children to become accepted as a Cleric of __________ so that they can have access to disease-removal/poison-removal/healing magic for free? Or at a significant discount?
You seem to be ignoring the PHB entire section on Gods and Clerics, ont every Tom, JIll, or Joey who goes to the temple gets spells. Not every Priest in town is a MM Priest. You keep saying "There is no reason that commoners are't throwing there kids into the clergy." And there are several I can think of simply; A Farmer is not going to ship of his only labor to the clerics when he needs help on the farm. I Merchant isn't going to send their kid to the temple when they can make more money learning their trade. Your logic of "IT's so OP whjy is not the whole world doing it" Frankly falls flat when even in PC Parties not everyone chooses cleric.
The process of becoming a Cleric is not at all the same as that associated with becoming a Wizard. The important thing is faith and doing what your temple/order elders tell you to do. It's not about studying difficult languages to reconfigure and re-program the weave. Since we have no rules whatsoever about adherence and divergence from deities, it's not illogical to conclude that deities aren't going to be micromanaging or particularly being all that careful re: their low level worshippers. And why would a deity not want more worshippers?
Again - not every person can be a Wizard, do you know how much spell components cost? Spell book? None of this is CHEAP. Farmer Joe doesn't even have enough money made in his lifetime to afford the simple pearl needed for identify.
I suppose part of what I'm asking through this thread is: why are we so attached to stories where the PCs are the only humanoids with what are effectively superpowers? Isn't that rather parsimonious and self-aggrandizing? Why can we not accept the implications of a world where many people, not just the PCs, have access to those same superpowers, just at a lesser and perfectly reasonable scale? Is it just for the sake of maintaining the tenuous boundaries of the game world in our heads?
First off - ignoring you blantant dig at everyone who doesn't agree with you. The entire POINT of the DMG, PHB, MM, and anything else Wizards produces is meant ot make an RPG where the PCs are the stars. Yes things happen behind the curtain, yes the world doesn't revolve around them. However the point of D&D is not for random Jill from down the road to be the hero, it is for the PCs to be though. Frankly it is painfully obvious you wanted to be right with those last sentences. THE WORLD YOU CREATE CAN BE ANY LEVEL OF MAGIC - that means that yes there is a world where every random Waldo can cast LR. But that world has lots of other problems besides plaques if every rando can do magic.
Ultimately, it matters little what I say on this thread because we know that Wizards is making a lot of money by catering to the wide swath of gamers who, like most commenters it seems, like treating D&D like a computer RPG. If that's the case, of course NPCs shouldn't have PC powers b/c the agency of the teeny tiniest subset of the population is all that needs to make sense. NPCs are just cardboard cutouts meant to service or punish the PCs. What a very convenient construction of the world, from the perspective of the players, right? By all means, more bread and circuses, dear reader! Bread! Circuses! Who doesn't like a good distraction??
Because you never came to this thread looking for a discussion, you came looking for a canyon that would echo your beliefs. Instead you got dozens of DMs explaining to you and pointing out where in the books your logic doesn't hold. There are plenty of ways to commoners to be involved in the story, if you think that being powerful equates to being useful, than I'm sorry D&D might not be the best system for you. Plenty of my most memorable NPCs are simple tavern keepers or commoners that my DM has brought to life in a fun and exciting way. It didn't take them known LR for them to be an integral part of my game. And again not sure why you're so mad that the system is built for the PC characters to hold so much power... the whole point of D7D 5e is to play a group of Heroes of the realm. Not be outshines by Bob Farmer from Farmtown.
Because you never came to this thread looking for a discussion, you came looking for a canyon that would echo your beliefs. Instead you got dozens of DMs explaining to you and pointing out where in the books your logic doesn't hold. There are plenty of ways to commoners to be involved in the story, if you think that being powerful equates to being useful, than I'm sorry D&D might not be the best system for you. Plenty of my most memorable NPCs are simple tavern keepers or commoners that my DM has brought to life in a fun and exciting way. It didn't take them known LR for them to be an integral part of my game. And again not sure why you're so mad that the system is built for the PC characters to hold so much power... the whole point of D7D 5e is to play a group of Heroes of the realm. Not be outshines by Bob Farmer from Farmtown.
Yes, I agree that there are plenty of ways for commoners to be involved in the story. I'm pointing out another way that they would be integral to it if 2nd level magic gets you something as reliably awesome as LR. What's cool about a tabletop RPG is that you get to flesh out the side characters. And pat of fleshing out side characters is also fleshing out the world they live in.
I'm not saying that PCs shouldn't be outdoing Bob Farmer. I've played enough games to know that being "The Hero" is part of the point of playing games. Everything from Super Mario Bros. to OverWatch assumes the extraordinary powers of the player. That does not mean that you cannot also be playing a game where those minor characters don't have the capacity to use in-game logic to solve in-game problems.
You seem to be ignoring the PHB entire section on Gods and Clerics, ont every Tom, JIll, or Joey who goes to the temple gets spells. Not every Priest in town is a MM Priest. You keep saying "There is no reason that commoners are't throwing there kids into the clergy." And there are several I can think of simply; A Farmer is not going to ship of his only labor to the clerics when he needs help on the farm. I Merchant isn't going to send their kid to the temple when they can make more money learning their trade. Your logic of "IT's so OP whjy is not the whole world doing it" Frankly falls flat when even in PC Parties not everyone chooses cleric.
I used Cleric as just an example of one class with the power of Lesser Restoration. It happens to be the most common class depicted in-game that gets LR, which is why I used it as an example. Several classes and subclasses get access to the spell. Magic items that grant the exact same ability are also fairly common in published campaign modules. My argument was never about how indispensable the Cleric is, but about how indispensable the spell is. And it turns out that there are various ways to get it. Most DMs will throw a potion or periapt at the party with LR if they know the party is wading into poisonous monster territory. I'm not saying that is a bad design, but my point is most players consciously know that the DM will do that for them if they don't pick a class with that spell. IOW, they apply metagame psychology to the choice of what class they choose for their PC. NPCs shouldn't be using metagame logic. So this paragraph misses my point entirely.
But just because common NPCs aren't 'extraordinary' from an ability perspective, doesn't mean they don't have purpose or meaning, except to 'serve or punish' the PCs. They flesh out the world, they help breathe life into the story, they're part of the fabric of the narrative.
Yes, I agree with you there. I am extending the logic that they have purpose and motivation to the supposition that many would have enough brains to figure out that if there is this obviously life-saving magic that you don't have to be Elminster-level adventurer to get, it would follow that any family with multiple children and a steady income would at least want one of those children to go into a profession - like being a Cleric - that would get their family access to some of that awesome.
(Of course, becoming a Druid, Bard, or Paladin would also work. I'm just using Cleric as an example since it's the class most analogous to the medical profession in the D&D universe.)
For ridding the people of temporary versions of conditions like blindness, deafness, magically-induced poison, etc. I don't see many issue with Lesser Restoration as is. However, keep in mind that Cure Disease in previous editions was a 3rd level spell, which put it on par with Remove Curse. 5th edition made the design decision to simplify a lot of the save-or-suck/save-or-die abilities by making most of it curable with one 2nd-level spell.
I agree that L.Restoration simplifies game play, but it's also clear that it creates an expectation from the players that, essentially, magic solves everything without any complications and with only fairly low expenditure of resources. I think this makes sense for the roll-playing, combat-oriented players who mostly just want to beat up the "Bad Guy" and make off with the treasure, much like World of Warcraft or most rogue-like CRPGs. I don't think it makes a lot less sense for games and players who want a heavy emphasis on role-playing, interacting with interesting NPCs, and a world that bears some semblance to the world we actually live in. There's no logical reason why clerics aren't all over the place, in almost every family if getting rid of disease and poison only takes a single 2nd-level spell slot without the use of any $$-burdened resources. There's no incentive to anyone to create or use slow-acting poisons. And there's no reason why most people would take disability or illness seriously because almost no one would die from those things. Conversely, it would also make life more brutal in other ways, because the population growth would be far higher than it was in the actual Middle Ages, and competition for land would be far more intense, leading to far more wars over territory.
Could change it to "lesser restoration removes any conditions that are normally removed on a long rest".
If you read the class descriptions in the PHB, you'll find that characters with class levels are supposed to be very rare. Most acolyte NPCs can cast cleric spells, but only to a very limited degree. Neither a gladiator or a veteran are technically fighters, even if they seem like they should be. Players are often supposed to be comparatively strong to NPCs of similar hit die total. Given their implied rarity, not everyone can have access to a level 3+ cleric at any given time.
Another facet you could use is to not give an affliction a designated type, and instead give a certain way to cure it. I recently hit my group of 14th-level players with a drug addiction. It wasn't a disease or poison or anything like that, but it was more comparable to madness (see "going mad" in the DMG) with a mechanical downside. They cured it easily with the resources they had (lots of diamonds on hand for revivify ground to dust for greater restoration, its specific cure), but none of the inexpensive options would've worked.
Illusions can block vision, but they don't cause the blinded condition. Same goes for if a creature has lost its eyes; that calls for regenerate.
Back to the initial question. Is Lesser Restoration too strong? No, not by most people's standards at least. Is a good idea to limit it's functionality? Possibly, sure. If you want to play a gritty, dangerous game concept. You could add in all the optional rules for Combat, such as Injuries and Massive Damage, etc. If everyone is on board for this type of play, do it up. I just don't see why you would come here and argue so vehemently about it's effects as stated.
The first time I played D&D, I was told a Wizard cast 1 spell a day then used his Crossbow or Staff if he was suicidal. I didn't care for that concept but, I know some people were still nuts about D&D. Yes, things have been changed to appeal to a larger demographic, for better or worse. I personally like the state of D&D mostly as it is currently.
It should be noted that the only NPC humanoids that have Lesser Restoration are the Priest and War Priest. Sounds like a lot, but in reading Descent into Avernus, I can count the priests on one hand, unless there's a bunch unassociated with any religion. A large city would still be at risk of highly contagious diseases. You could also keep Lesser Restoration as it is but rule that for some particular nasty/magical diseases, you need to upcast the spell, which makes it harder to cure on a large scale. Another idea is to have Lesser Restoration deal with most of the symptoms while not fully curing you. You'd need an upcast or a quest for a cure to fully get rid of the disease, and in the meantime be casting Lesser Restoration each day to prolong yourself.
Do what fits your needs, is what I'm saying.
Which means anything with level 3+ spellcasting as cleric or druid can do it.
Which is precisely why it makes no sense that, in a world where actions have consequences and intelligent NPCs are more than robot-like dispensaries of items and information, that not every NPC family with a daughter/son/non-binary child should be clamoring to get one of their children into religious school to become a Cleric. IOW, Clerics galore anywhere that a temple to a non-death god exists. If the gods are real and offer a path to cheaply prevent people from dying of any number of illnesses and conditions with just a low level spell slot that is replenished every long rest, there is absolutely no reason that most people would ever eschew faith since the benefit is guaranteed and very cost-effective every day of the year.
Because even in real world not everyone who enters the church gets to become a cleric/priest. If we just look at the Priest stat block, they are a CR 2; meaning any tom or harry that walk of the street and into a temple are not, bampf, getting lesser restoration. Just because the spell has little material component to it does not mean that everyone with a body will e able to reach the requirements to cast it. If you choose to make it that easy in your game, than that's on you. But by the MM, and PHB it is not something that just any person can obtain simply. Getting to level 2/3 takes a decent amount of time for a non-adventurer
As someone said earlier, you've now gotten even more examples of why lesser restoration is not over powered, and does not prevent plagues (look at the comments you replied to) but you just seem to be looking for an echo chamber than an actual discussion
No, your are missing my point. You're applying real world modern thought patterns to a fictional world where magic, as written, is all powerful. In modern times, a lot fewer people go to church or participate in organized religion because science has emerged and proven to be more reliable than religion for a wide range of practical, everyday applications. But in a world where the evidence of divine intervention is frequently seen and where access to divine blessings via spells can be obtained at a cheap price, the situation would be much closer to one that I describe. People do what is effective to solve their problems if they are aware of the solution. If you can just magic-away your grandmother's poor eyesight or your best friend's diabetes, wouldn't you (or some family member) do what you can to accomplish that? The flexibility and money-free aspects of LR are just too good and obvious to ignore. Even if it took a person 6 years to go from being a neophyte level 0 follower of Lliira to a level 3 follower of Lliira, the super effective, always available benefits would clearly be worth it to you, your family and your friends. The rewards for joining the priesthood or nunnery in the real world don't compare, on an everyday level, with what is obtainable in the D&D universe at all. Plus you, know, the celibacy thing doesn't seem to exist in many D&D religions.
That doesn't mean they succeed. PCs learn at cinematic rates, but that doesn't mean everyone does.
I'd also point out that, while yes, gods in D&D are unambiguously real (except for Eberron), that doesn't mean they are omnipotent or omnipresent. And on Eberron, where theoretically anyone could become a cleric, basic magic is common but advanced magic is incredibly rare (and often monopolized).
If you want to go with that logic, then why does lower, middle, or upper class exist at all? Why would anyone be a farmer, just spend a few years as a druid and you too could cast Plant growth, making all farmers basically irrelevant. Why be a merchant who travels between cities, a few years as a wizard and you could cast teleportation circle. Why would any foot soldier want to be anything less than a Barbarian who could shrug off damage. Why practice animal husbandry when you could just be a ranger and speak to the animals to get what you want?
The problem is all of the above take time, resources, and education to get to. On top of that, player characters are explicitly stated in the books as being uncanny and rare. Besides that, you gotta take the good with the bad.
Disease and poison is literally the least of everyone's concerns in Faerun. How about the 100 years of the Spell plague, where the land literally caught fire and wiped out entire nations with no warning. Sections of land just disappeared into the ethereal realm and other realities. What about the time the Gods walked the land and waged holy war against each other leading entire armies against each other, casualties that make WW2 look like a joke. What about ANY lich? A being that is ageless and manipulates events from afar? How do you know who is under his control and who is not? In theory a Lich could cast Geas 3 times a day, plus an additional 4 times for extend duration, for 30 days at a time, magically compelling all of those people to do whatever he desires.
If your point is that Magic as written is too strong, no duh. That is the point. But, Lesser Restoration is basically a useless spell in the face of the things above. It simply to makes life a little easier for those who can cast it. If your point is, why wouldn't everyone and anyone just become a cleric, then I think you misunderstand who faith works. Cleric's power comes from their devotion to their deity, and if the deity decides not to give that power, you are kind of just wasting your time from your perspective. Why do Farmers worship gods of the lands and fertility? Is not their devotion worth recognizing them as clerics? You don't just get magic powers by whispering a few prayers.
There seems to be a disconnect between how available magic is and how much it is worth.
I may be wrong in assuming, but it seems to me that OP believes that spellcasters are commonplace and that the standard for currency is the gold piece. Neither are the case for the majority of the populace. A commoner is your everyday adult person, and if (s)he were to use coin for expenses, it would most likely be dealt in copper or, at most, silver. Gold is only used by the more successful merchants, adventurers and maybe nobility.
If you look at spellcasting services in the PHB, over in the Expenses section, this type of service is dealt in not only gold pieces, but a LOT of it, and the price spikes steeply as the spell level rises. Commoners would almost NEVER be able to get this type of service without a serious amount of goodwill (from a player character) or knowing an incriminating secret that said caster somehow can't otherwise deal with.
Does anyone know how long it takes a typical NPC spellcaster to aquire their ability to cast spells? Anyone recall the elderly wizard trope? Acquiring this kind of power takes not only a lot of time, but an aptitude to be able to do it at all. There's a reason why a stereotypical barbarian cannot become a wizard, and mechanically that falls into the multiclassing rules. Commoners have 10 in every score, so they technically don't qualify for any classes.
Players are the only exception to the rule, as they can start in a class they don't qualify for, but then they can't multiclass themselves. How many sit at your table at a time? I'd be willing to bet they don't make up 1% of a single town's population.
I think this is absolutely the fundamental point behind this discussion. It's easy to think that because our characters are low level - and we know how powerful they can become, it means that they're not special or powerful when they start out.
A level 1 character is still exceptional comparative to the general population. Just because a low-level spell is low level, doesn't mean it isn't spectacular.
I think the issue I've seen in campaigns, is when this isn't the case. When every Dick, Tom and Harry can cast magic and have potions on hand. When the tavern master offers gold pieces as a reward for clearing rats from the cellar, rather than the couple of copper pieces that work is worth.
The rules state: 'It might be possible to find someone willing to Cast a Spell in exchange for coin or favors, but it is rarely easy and no established pay rates exist.'
I don't think every outlying hamlet with a small shrine to the local deity should have a cleric that can cast spells. I don't think every local merchant should sell potions and magical equipment. I think that for most commoners, travelling to a nearby city to pay a priest to cure their disease, would probably cost their life savings - if they could even fathom such a journey or expense.
I've played in high magic worlds, where every local militia has a battle priest that can rain down fire on troublesome ruffians. And it just makes the concept of magic ordinary - when it should be astonishing.
Yes - the population can know magic is real. They can know that the gods exist, and that prayers are answered by their faithful. But those chosen faithful should be treated with the absolute reverence - or fear - that they deserve, because there's likely only a handful in the world.
I like Rexir's point about NPC Spellcasters and the time it took them to learn their spells. I always felt that learning their first cantrips would have been a life transforming moment; after potentially yearsof hard study, practice or prayer. I've played in too many worlds where Ray of Frost is treated as a parlor trick by commoners, or being able to cast Light out of nowhere wouldn't terrify most people.
I think a big part of world building is establishing that mundane things for players, are actually extraordinary feats for most. And that extends beyond magic.
I am not arguing that spellcasters have to be common, but when the gods create a strong incentive for the people to be faithful to them, then the logical result is that many people will at least try to become spellcasters if at all possible. The high cost of the PHB lists is principally a guideline used to rein in PCs from hiring underling spellcasters all the time. (Because that could break the game.) And even if that cost were accurate, doesn't that just create an even greater incentive for people to get one of their children to become accepted as a Cleric of __________ so that they can have access to disease-removal/poison-removal/healing magic for free? Or at a significant discount?
The process of becoming a Cleric is not at all the same as that associated with becoming a Wizard. The important thing is faith and doing what your temple/order elders tell you to do. It's not about studying difficult languages to reconfigure and re-program the weave. Since we have no rules whatsoever about adherence and divergence from deities, it's not illogical to conclude that deities aren't going to be micromanaging or particularly being all that careful re: their low level worshippers. And why would a deity not want more worshippers?
I suppose part of what I'm asking through this thread is: why are we so attached to stories where the PCs are the only humanoids with what are effectively superpowers? Isn't that rather parsimonious and self-aggrandizing? Why can we not accept the implications of a world where many people, not just the PCs, have access to those same superpowers, just at a lesser and perfectly reasonable scale? Is it just for the sake of maintaining the tenuous boundaries of the game world in our heads?
Ultimately, it matters little what I say on this thread because we know that Wizards is making a lot of money by catering to the wide swath of gamers who, like most commenters it seems, like treating D&D like a computer RPG. If that's the case, of course NPCs shouldn't have PC powers b/c the agency of the teeny tiniest subset of the population is all that needs to make sense. NPCs are just cardboard cutouts meant to service or punish the PCs. What a very convenient construction of the world, from the perspective of the players, right? By all means, more bread and circuses, dear reader! Bread! Circuses! Who doesn't like a good distraction??
So you are saying your point in summary is that those that think it’s not over powered are playing D&D wrong?
You said you felt it limited your options as DM - people countered with rules from the game and ideas for creative solutions.
you said you wouldn’t need creative solutions if the spell was balanced - people gave you many examples of spells more imbalanced or reasons why it’s not
you told them they were wrong and used real world examples of how a world would work if it were real to show it was broken - people countered why those rules don’t apply in D&D and that’s not how it works.
you insisted it should though and was game breaking when thought of that way - people used real world examples and logic to explain why it should work that way
you told people they can’t apply real world logic to D&D despite its what you had been doing from the start, or if they did it had to only be your logic.
you then said the problem is gamers and the commenters here are clearly like that and No true Scotsmanned your whole point while saying your entire point was something different.
dude you have probably forgotten more about RPG’s than I know, but do everyone a favour and close this thread.
That's the thing: it's not at all possible for many people. They don't have the extraordinary Widsom to fathom the divine purposes of the gods. But it's not just an ability thing; more than that, they just simply aren't chosen to.
From the PHB: 'The gods don’t grant this power to everyone who seeks it, but only to those chosen to fulfill a high calling.'
If a Cleric can cast spells, they're special. Chosen to receive the power of their deity by their deity. Your argument: 'it's not illogical to conclude that deities aren't going to be micromanaging or particularly being all that careful re: their low level worshippers' is just a wrong assumption. The deity chooses the cleric - not the other way around.
Regarding your points on why the world seems to revolve around, and cater to, the players: it's because that's who the story is about. Besides, it's not only the PCs that have 'superpowers' - many characters the players may meet will have equal or greater abilities than they do - all with their own motivations.
But just because common NPCs aren't 'extraordinary' from an ability perspective, doesn't mean they don't have purpose or meaning, except to 'serve or punish' the PCs. They flesh out the world, they help breathe life into the story, they're part of the fabric of the narrative.
The PHB goes on to say: 'Not every acolyte or officiant at a temple or shrine is a cleric. Some priests are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their gods’ will through prayer and sacrifice, not by magic and strength of arms. '
It's almost as though this entire section of the PHB on Clerics was written just for you!
You seem to be ignoring the PHB entire section on Gods and Clerics, ont every Tom, JIll, or Joey who goes to the temple gets spells. Not every Priest in town is a MM Priest. You keep saying "There is no reason that commoners are't throwing there kids into the clergy." And there are several I can think of simply; A Farmer is not going to ship of his only labor to the clerics when he needs help on the farm. I Merchant isn't going to send their kid to the temple when they can make more money learning their trade. Your logic of "IT's so OP whjy is not the whole world doing it" Frankly falls flat when even in PC Parties not everyone chooses cleric.
Again - not every person can be a Wizard, do you know how much spell components cost? Spell book? None of this is CHEAP. Farmer Joe doesn't even have enough money made in his lifetime to afford the simple pearl needed for identify.
First off - ignoring you blantant dig at everyone who doesn't agree with you. The entire POINT of the DMG, PHB, MM, and anything else Wizards produces is meant ot make an RPG where the PCs are the stars. Yes things happen behind the curtain, yes the world doesn't revolve around them. However the point of D&D is not for random Jill from down the road to be the hero, it is for the PCs to be though. Frankly it is painfully obvious you wanted to be right with those last sentences. THE WORLD YOU CREATE CAN BE ANY LEVEL OF MAGIC - that means that yes there is a world where every random Waldo can cast LR. But that world has lots of other problems besides plaques if every rando can do magic.
Because you never came to this thread looking for a discussion, you came looking for a canyon that would echo your beliefs. Instead you got dozens of DMs explaining to you and pointing out where in the books your logic doesn't hold. There are plenty of ways to commoners to be involved in the story, if you think that being powerful equates to being useful, than I'm sorry D&D might not be the best system for you. Plenty of my most memorable NPCs are simple tavern keepers or commoners that my DM has brought to life in a fun and exciting way. It didn't take them known LR for them to be an integral part of my game. And again not sure why you're so mad that the system is built for the PC characters to hold so much power... the whole point of D7D 5e is to play a group of Heroes of the realm. Not be outshines by Bob Farmer from Farmtown.
Yes, I agree that there are plenty of ways for commoners to be involved in the story. I'm pointing out another way that they would be integral to it if 2nd level magic gets you something as reliably awesome as LR. What's cool about a tabletop RPG is that you get to flesh out the side characters. And pat of fleshing out side characters is also fleshing out the world they live in.
I'm not saying that PCs shouldn't be outdoing Bob Farmer. I've played enough games to know that being "The Hero" is part of the point of playing games. Everything from Super Mario Bros. to OverWatch assumes the extraordinary powers of the player. That does not mean that you cannot also be playing a game where those minor characters don't have the capacity to use in-game logic to solve in-game problems.
I used Cleric as just an example of one class with the power of Lesser Restoration. It happens to be the most common class depicted in-game that gets LR, which is why I used it as an example. Several classes and subclasses get access to the spell. Magic items that grant the exact same ability are also fairly common in published campaign modules. My argument was never about how indispensable the Cleric is, but about how indispensable the spell is. And it turns out that there are various ways to get it. Most DMs will throw a potion or periapt at the party with LR if they know the party is wading into poisonous monster territory. I'm not saying that is a bad design, but my point is most players consciously know that the DM will do that for them if they don't pick a class with that spell. IOW, they apply metagame psychology to the choice of what class they choose for their PC. NPCs shouldn't be using metagame logic. So this paragraph misses my point entirely.
Yes, I agree with you there. I am extending the logic that they have purpose and motivation to the supposition that many would have enough brains to figure out that if there is this obviously life-saving magic that you don't have to be Elminster-level adventurer to get, it would follow that any family with multiple children and a steady income would at least want one of those children to go into a profession - like being a Cleric - that would get their family access to some of that awesome.
(Of course, becoming a Druid, Bard, or Paladin would also work. I'm just using Cleric as an example since it's the class most analogous to the medical profession in the D&D universe.)