Durable merchant, if firebolting him just didn't kill him. If I was the wizard I would have considered putting the character who cast firebolt to sleep a bonus, but honestly, if you cast a 20' radius area effect in a bazaar, you're going to hit a whole bunch of commoners, generally absorbing the entire energy of sleep.
Most of my players have several decades. I simply execute commands for them. For less-experienced or new players, I will ask them to "read the spell description very carefully". We are a,l intelligent people here.
1) I always warn of possible significant consequences. Wizards are NOT stupid. However, players and DMs can often visualize a situation differently even if looking at minis on a map or tokens on a VTT. If the DM is thinking of inflicting adverse effects on the character and possibly their team mates as a result of the players stated actions ... ALWAYS ask. The character is unlikely to want to harm or disable their friends, the character knows the area of effect of their spell. The player has an idea in mind, however, the DM can NOT know exactly what that idea is ... in this case the player wanted to cast sleep in such a way that it only affected the merchant. THAT is what they were thinking. Maybe the position the 20' cube with one corner facing down so only the merchant is affected? Perhaps the player didn't even think about the details only knowing that they planned to cast it on the merchant without affecting team mates.
The DMs impression of the action however is ... "the character can't do that without affecting other players or even himself". If the DM ever finds themselves thinking of resolving a situation this way they NEED to ask for clarification, they need to explain to the player that the wizard character would KNOW that they could not cast the spell at this location without affecting both team mates and the character themselves. Maybe it breaks immersion a bit but the DM needs to figure out what the player intends the character to do as well as what they are doing before resolving the action.
It's the same as the DM saying "Ha! You forgot to say you are checking for traps ... you fall in the pit!" or "I run and long jump over the 20' trench!", DM says "well with your 8 strength you can only running long jump 8 feet and plummet into the middle of the pit ... sorry" .. Do you think the character/player REALLY intended to hurt themselves by jumping into the middle of a trench? The character would know they couldn't make it even if the player forgot. Even saying "Are you sure?" isn't a panacea if the player has forgotten a rule or simply visualizes the situation differently from the DM.
2) You describe the scene as a "crowded bazaar" ... however the only people apparently affected are the merchant and the two members of the group. This is a situation where the DM and someone listening to them visualize the situation very differently. I visualize a "crowded bazaar" as likely having 8 to 10 other NPCs/commoners within the area of the sleep spell. I picture the wizard casting sleep and everyone else EXCEPT the PCs and the merchant falling asleep since they have more hit points than the commoners. So now we have the DMs perspective that the PCs and the merchant are affected, the wizard player who intended to affect only the merchant and someone on the internet reading the story and wondering where all the commoners that are filling this crowded bazaar have gone. This is why, if a players choice of action doesn't seem to make sense to the DM AND they plan on inflicting some negative effects as a consequence, the DM needs to clarify the situation and make sure that both the DM and players are on the same page about what is going on.
if a players choice of action doesn't seem to make sense to the DM AND they plan on inflicting some negative effects as a consequence, the DM needs to clarify the situation and make sure that both the DM and players are on the same page about what is going on
This is an excellent 1-sentence summary of how to handle things.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I generally assume the character knows their spells, skills, and such and will remind players, old or new, of effects or implications that I think are obvious. Pretty hard to define a specific rule for this, though.
For that specific example of targeting a spell, I generally say they can cast it exactly on something they can see or otherwise reasonably perceive. If they need to estimate, that’s a skill check, but I’d certainly let them try it. I’d probably give disadvantage for the example of casting a spell at a point in the air at a precise height unless there was something to provide perspective to help the estimate like a doorframe or a tree.
I didn’t read all the responses but wouldn’t it drop the merchant and other commoners in the area, if it was a crowded bazaar? I mean, the fire bolt alone you would think would attract the guards...
As for the ruling, I generally ask to confirm and I like how you had the player read it back to you - often this would solve any issues and if they still want to do it the way they say it, well you can lead a horse to water...
One that I has found almost always works (both in viewing other games and games I'm in) is simply to ask for a confirmation on the radius of the effect and the things it targets. This gets players to read the spell again and they usually look at the board and confirm to themselves who is in the area of effect. It seems to be the emphasis on knowing the radius that is the trigger.
PC: "I'd like to cast sleep... here" <points to the map>
DM looking at the board: "Ok, and what's the radius of the spell and who does it target again?"
PC:"20 feet and everyone... oh, I'd like to cast it here instead" <points to a new area that doesn't hit an ally>
For some 'devil's advocate' I've had player's misread Sleep, to be that you choose which creatures within the AOE it effects, not that you choose the point that the effect originates from, this misunderstanding may be why you got this response:
He got mad saying, "Why didn't you ask if I wanted to put my teammate and myself to sleep?"
This might be a different interpretation of a spell, which wouldn't necessarily come up when they read through the spell.
Specifically, this line (emphasis mine):
Creatures within 20 feet of a point you choose within range are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures).
This could be interpreted that it only affects creatures the spell caster chooses. While this isn't a normal interpretation, it is a possible one.
I would check that that isn't what they meant rather than them not being aware of the range that the AOE reaches.
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Durable merchant, if firebolting him just didn't kill him. If I was the wizard I would have considered putting the character who cast firebolt to sleep a bonus, but honestly, if you cast a 20' radius area effect in a bazaar, you're going to hit a whole bunch of commoners, generally absorbing the entire energy of sleep.
Most of my players have several decades. I simply execute commands for them. For less-experienced or new players, I will ask them to "read the spell description very carefully". We are a,l intelligent people here.
Two comments ...
1) I always warn of possible significant consequences. Wizards are NOT stupid. However, players and DMs can often visualize a situation differently even if looking at minis on a map or tokens on a VTT. If the DM is thinking of inflicting adverse effects on the character and possibly their team mates as a result of the players stated actions ... ALWAYS ask. The character is unlikely to want to harm or disable their friends, the character knows the area of effect of their spell. The player has an idea in mind, however, the DM can NOT know exactly what that idea is ... in this case the player wanted to cast sleep in such a way that it only affected the merchant. THAT is what they were thinking. Maybe the position the 20' cube with one corner facing down so only the merchant is affected? Perhaps the player didn't even think about the details only knowing that they planned to cast it on the merchant without affecting team mates.
The DMs impression of the action however is ... "the character can't do that without affecting other players or even himself". If the DM ever finds themselves thinking of resolving a situation this way they NEED to ask for clarification, they need to explain to the player that the wizard character would KNOW that they could not cast the spell at this location without affecting both team mates and the character themselves. Maybe it breaks immersion a bit but the DM needs to figure out what the player intends the character to do as well as what they are doing before resolving the action.
It's the same as the DM saying "Ha! You forgot to say you are checking for traps ... you fall in the pit!" or "I run and long jump over the 20' trench!", DM says "well with your 8 strength you can only running long jump 8 feet and plummet into the middle of the pit ... sorry" .. Do you think the character/player REALLY intended to hurt themselves by jumping into the middle of a trench? The character would know they couldn't make it even if the player forgot. Even saying "Are you sure?" isn't a panacea if the player has forgotten a rule or simply visualizes the situation differently from the DM.
2) You describe the scene as a "crowded bazaar" ... however the only people apparently affected are the merchant and the two members of the group. This is a situation where the DM and someone listening to them visualize the situation very differently. I visualize a "crowded bazaar" as likely having 8 to 10 other NPCs/commoners within the area of the sleep spell. I picture the wizard casting sleep and everyone else EXCEPT the PCs and the merchant falling asleep since they have more hit points than the commoners. So now we have the DMs perspective that the PCs and the merchant are affected, the wizard player who intended to affect only the merchant and someone on the internet reading the story and wondering where all the commoners that are filling this crowded bazaar have gone. This is why, if a players choice of action doesn't seem to make sense to the DM AND they plan on inflicting some negative effects as a consequence, the DM needs to clarify the situation and make sure that both the DM and players are on the same page about what is going on.
This is an excellent 1-sentence summary of how to handle things.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I generally assume the character knows their spells, skills, and such and will remind players, old or new, of effects or implications that I think are obvious. Pretty hard to define a specific rule for this, though.
For that specific example of targeting a spell, I generally say they can cast it exactly on something they can see or otherwise reasonably perceive. If they need to estimate, that’s a skill check, but I’d certainly let them try it. I’d probably give disadvantage for the example of casting a spell at a point in the air at a precise height unless there was something to provide perspective to help the estimate like a doorframe or a tree.
I didn’t read all the responses but wouldn’t it drop the merchant and other commoners in the area, if it was a crowded bazaar? I mean, the fire bolt alone you would think would attract the guards...
As for the ruling, I generally ask to confirm and I like how you had the player read it back to you - often this would solve any issues and if they still want to do it the way they say it, well you can lead a horse to water...
DM - And In The Darkness, Rot: The Sunless Citadel
DM - Our Little Lives Kept In Equipoise: Curse of Strahd
DM - Misprize Thou Not These Shadows That Belong: The Lost Mines of Phandelver
PC - Azzure - Tyranny of Dragons
One that I has found almost always works (both in viewing other games and games I'm in) is simply to ask for a confirmation on the radius of the effect and the things it targets. This gets players to read the spell again and they usually look at the board and confirm to themselves who is in the area of effect. It seems to be the emphasis on knowing the radius that is the trigger.
PC: "I'd like to cast sleep... here" <points to the map>
DM looking at the board: "Ok, and what's the radius of the spell and who does it target again?"
PC:"20 feet and everyone... oh, I'd like to cast it here instead" <points to a new area that doesn't hit an ally>
For some 'devil's advocate' I've had player's misread Sleep, to be that you choose which creatures within the AOE it effects, not that you choose the point that the effect originates from, this misunderstanding may be why you got this response:
This might be a different interpretation of a spell, which wouldn't necessarily come up when they read through the spell.
Specifically, this line (emphasis mine):
This could be interpreted that it only affects creatures the spell caster chooses. While this isn't a normal interpretation, it is a possible one.
I would check that that isn't what they meant rather than them not being aware of the range that the AOE reaches.