Hello, I'm running a boss battle with a spellcaster vampire and minions (skeletal rats, swarm of bats and dire wolves). Since the swarms attack when occupying the same space as the player characters, do they not help or gain the benefits of flanking?
I know, I was just thinking about the rule in the DM's guide. It counts flanking when you can trace a line between the players going through the target. Since the swarm is inside the player square, such a line cannot be drawn, so I wasn't sure. I just don't want to seem inconsistent and trying to set the game in my favour.
RAW for the optional flanking rule, no, they wouldn't get the advantage granted. As you say, you need to be able to draw a line through opposite sides or corners of the flanked creature.
Just to give my two cents, I personally wouldn't recommend using the flanking rule. Your players - particularly if you have a rogue in the party - will come to rely on it far too much, and will ignore sounder tactics in their attempts to flank enemies. Trying to get advantage is half the fun and part of the challenge of combat in 5e; there are many different abilities and spells that can grant advantage, but if your players can get it simply by flanking, they'll ignore those things. Many enemies have abilities such as Pack Tactics that grant them advantage when they have allies near their target, but these abilities become almost pointless if anyone can get advantage just by flanking.
If you are really set on the concept of it - after all, it does make sense that being surrounded or flanked by enemies makes for a bad situation - maybe consider giving a bonus (+1 or +2) to attack rolls, rather than granting advantage.
I know, I was just thinking about the rule in the DM's guide. It counts flanking when you can trace a line between the players going through the target. Since the swarm is inside the player square, such a line cannot be drawn, so I wasn't sure. I just don't want to seem inconsistent and trying to set the game in my favour.
If they're in the same player square, you can draw a line through the character inside the own square. Can't you?
I know, I was just thinking about the rule in the DM's guide. It counts flanking when you can trace a line between the players going through the target. Since the swarm is inside the player square, such a line cannot be drawn, so I wasn't sure. I just don't want to seem inconsistent and trying to set the game in my favour.
If they're in the same player square, you can draw a line through the character inside the own square. Can't you?
RAW: When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
So, from the variant rule, being in the same square does not work.
The flanking rules are of course variant, and once you're introducing table rules you can do whatever you want with them, but swarms are certainly not balanced for "can run into an enemy square and automatically get advantage on every attack".
Raw states flanking needs a line. So if you place the swarm token behind another token, you can argue for advantage.
But i think it's difficult to explain the logic, because swarm tokens are a method to make the mechanics a bit easier. There is no realism here.
There are many rules missing that handle swarms. For example what about area of effect spells. I homebrew that a burning hands spell kills a swarm of spiders immediately.
So if you think swams should block an enemy or give advantage go for it. Just know the balance changes. I do that but also allow swarms the be killed easy with aoe.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hello, I'm running a boss battle with a spellcaster vampire and minions (skeletal rats, swarm of bats and dire wolves). Since the swarms attack when occupying the same space as the player characters, do they not help or gain the benefits of flanking?
Up to you obviously, but I'd say so. Flanking is meant to simulate a person being distracted, and it's easy to image being distracted being swarmed!
I know, I was just thinking about the rule in the DM's guide. It counts flanking when you can trace a line between the players going through the target. Since the swarm is inside the player square, such a line cannot be drawn, so I wasn't sure. I just don't want to seem inconsistent and trying to set the game in my favour.
RAW for the optional flanking rule, no, they wouldn't get the advantage granted. As you say, you need to be able to draw a line through opposite sides or corners of the flanked creature.
Just to give my two cents, I personally wouldn't recommend using the flanking rule. Your players - particularly if you have a rogue in the party - will come to rely on it far too much, and will ignore sounder tactics in their attempts to flank enemies. Trying to get advantage is half the fun and part of the challenge of combat in 5e; there are many different abilities and spells that can grant advantage, but if your players can get it simply by flanking, they'll ignore those things. Many enemies have abilities such as Pack Tactics that grant them advantage when they have allies near their target, but these abilities become almost pointless if anyone can get advantage just by flanking.
If you are really set on the concept of it - after all, it does make sense that being surrounded or flanked by enemies makes for a bad situation - maybe consider giving a bonus (+1 or +2) to attack rolls, rather than granting advantage.
If they're in the same player square, you can draw a line through the character inside the own square. Can't you?
RAW: When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
So, from the variant rule, being in the same square does not work.
The flanking rules are of course variant, and once you're introducing table rules you can do whatever you want with them, but swarms are certainly not balanced for "can run into an enemy square and automatically get advantage on every attack".
Raw states flanking needs a line. So if you place the swarm token behind another token, you can argue for advantage.
But i think it's difficult to explain the logic, because swarm tokens are a method to make the mechanics a bit easier. There is no realism here.
There are many rules missing that handle swarms. For example what about area of effect spells. I homebrew that a burning hands spell kills a swarm of spiders immediately.
So if you think swams should block an enemy or give advantage go for it. Just know the balance changes. I do that but also allow swarms the be killed easy with aoe.