Fair Warning -- As a player, I like to "break" the campaign. I like to take notes, and use that knowledge and character abilities to break things. I used a portent and a suggestion spell to send an entire tribe of orcs on a wild goose chase. In SKT, we avoided 3 of the first 5 fights. And we twice fought hill giants in which the giants never got an attack roll.
I have a party in my homebrew game that is great at this also. They have avoided fights, found unexpected ways to get around challenges, etc. Last week, they had one character shrink to the size of a mouse, crawl through a collapsed tunnel, and set up a short range gate/teleport to avoid having to go through a Fire Giants keep. We have a rogue with a Passive Perception of 29 and never rolls lower than 25 on stealth. And they are all smart players. So, there are some fights they can just plain avoid, bypass, or find an easy button.
Why am I posting this. Well, someone tweeted Mike Mearls today wanting to figure out how to disallow a character with a high passive perception . I have seen similar questions here and in other forums. And my take, after self examination, is I need to, as a DM, be happy for the players when they do this! Yup, I set up what I thought was a good encounter, and they found something I did not think about. Give them a high five, and adjust in the future.
PC's should be able to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Its what makes them heroes. I honestly think, in the past, I used to look for ways to "mess them up!" But I feel I am now a much better DM if I let them win, and then learn lessons for the future encounter design. PC's have also been known to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Some nights their dice will be bad and/or, they will miss something and turn an easy encounter into a really tough battle. But when they do something wonderful, my reaction should be to congratulate them and then figure out how to provide a challenge despite their high Passive Perception, good hide rolls, spell combos, etc.
TL:DR -- Players will have really cool ideas, skills, spells, etc. Stop complaining, let them enjoy their win, and simply learn how to challenge them better. The problem is not their abilities, its your design and you control that!
Thank you for letting me rant. It really helps to let my players know that I am fine with them breaking things and will not take away their cool abilities. It increases their fun and I think that is the goal of playing....
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--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
How could they have a passive score of a 29? That seems way off. Passive perception is 10 + whatever modifier applies to that check (in the case of perception, that is wisdom). The modifier can only go up to +5....
storm king's thunder is designed for characters 1-11. Either they're over leveled for the module they're playing, or they don't have stuff calculated right.
In creating a character with such a high PP and Stealth, they have sacrificed in other areas, and probably aren't the best in a fight. But as a super sneaky dungeon-delver, can play a very key role in a dungeon crawl. Let them shine in their area of expertise realizing that they probably will not play a significant role in dragon fight.
For those parties that are combat intensive, this can seem like they are breaking the game, but it is no different than a barbarian/fighter that loads up in offensive feets and strength modifiers.
storm king's thunder is designed for characters 1-11. Either they're over leveled for the module they're playing, or they don't have stuff calculated right.
Storm King's Thunder is, in my professional opinion, designed to kill characters of the stated levels. And that equation is exactly right.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
As a DM you could also challenge them in other ways to make it more interesting. Sure he can turn into a mouse, but you could always counter him with a snake or something similar in the rubble of the collapsed tunnel. I mean turning into a mouse is a pretty dangerous thing to do... they are not exactly at the top of the food chain.
I think it's great for players to be creative in their approaches. I don't think it's breaking anything, it's the reason most of us play the game. Min-Maxing on the other hand is kind of annoying. These types of players are usual easy to deal with though since they are usually one trick ponies who relay heavily on a single mechanic to carry them in encounters.
Storm King's Thunder is, in my professional opinion, designed to kill characters of the stated levels.
All WotC modules have encounters way above deadly level. There are times where players have to break the mood to get through. I play a wizard in SKT with standard HP. There is no battle in the entire campaign where ONE hit cannot take me to less than 5hp. That's hit, not full round of attacks where two hits kill outright if one is a critical.
Clarify:. I play in SKT, rogue i DM is in Homebrew world. She has Eyes of the Eagle (adv on roll, +5 to passive.).
That said, I was hoping we would discuss the issue, not the math of one example...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
I think it's great for players to be creative in their approaches. I don't think it's breaking anything, it's the reason most of us play the game. Min-Maxing on the other hand is kind of annoying.
I thought this was worth a quick discussion.
The first sentence is great wording. When a player focusses to creatively create a character, then DM'ing is easier. You tell a great story when you work WITH that to let them try time and succeed. Players are invested and gameplay is through the roof!
I will differ with the second sentence, but only because I used to agree with it 😁. Min/Max characters always have limits; most are like race cars with huge engines and no brakes. Simply a wide range of types of encounters will challenge "creative" characters while exposing the min/max'ers why it's not as cool as they thought.
The WotC team described 4e being developed for the forums where people spent hours/days planning characters; 5e was designed for how it played at the table. In a well designed 5e campaign, the min/max'ers always falter to a well designed all around character.
Oops,. Must have been paying too much attention to other things... Son had BlizzCon WoW announcement on TV and nine-week old puppies have learned how to climb up in my lap on their own. Too much input!!!!😙
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
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Fair Warning -- As a player, I like to "break" the campaign. I like to take notes, and use that knowledge and character abilities to break things. I used a portent and a suggestion spell to send an entire tribe of orcs on a wild goose chase. In SKT, we avoided 3 of the first 5 fights. And we twice fought hill giants in which the giants never got an attack roll.
I have a party in my homebrew game that is great at this also. They have avoided fights, found unexpected ways to get around challenges, etc. Last week, they had one character shrink to the size of a mouse, crawl through a collapsed tunnel, and set up a short range gate/teleport to avoid having to go through a Fire Giants keep. We have a rogue with a Passive Perception of 29 and never rolls lower than 25 on stealth. And they are all smart players. So, there are some fights they can just plain avoid, bypass, or find an easy button.
Why am I posting this. Well, someone tweeted Mike Mearls today wanting to figure out how to disallow a character with a high passive perception . I have seen similar questions here and in other forums. And my take, after self examination, is I need to, as a DM, be happy for the players when they do this! Yup, I set up what I thought was a good encounter, and they found something I did not think about. Give them a high five, and adjust in the future.
PC's should be able to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Its what makes them heroes. I honestly think, in the past, I used to look for ways to "mess them up!" But I feel I am now a much better DM if I let them win, and then learn lessons for the future encounter design. PC's have also been known to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Some nights their dice will be bad and/or, they will miss something and turn an easy encounter into a really tough battle. But when they do something wonderful, my reaction should be to congratulate them and then figure out how to provide a challenge despite their high Passive Perception, good hide rolls, spell combos, etc.
TL:DR -- Players will have really cool ideas, skills, spells, etc. Stop complaining, let them enjoy their win, and simply learn how to challenge them better. The problem is not their abilities, its your design and you control that!
Thank you for letting me rant. It really helps to let my players know that I am fine with them breaking things and will not take away their cool abilities. It increases their fun and I think that is the goal of playing....
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
How could they have a passive score of a 29? That seems way off. Passive perception is 10 + whatever modifier applies to that check (in the case of perception, that is wisdom). The modifier can only go up to +5....
13th Level Rogue w/ Observant Feet and Expertise in Perception can get you to upper 20's in Passive Perception.
Passive Perception of 29 = 10+ [18 Wisdom (+4)] + [Observant Feet (+5)] + [Proficiency Bonus (+5)] + [Perception Expertise(+5)]
In creating a character with such a high PP and Stealth, they have sacrificed in other areas, and probably aren't the best in a fight. But as a super sneaky dungeon-delver, can play a very key role in a dungeon crawl. Let them shine in their area of expertise realizing that they probably will not play a significant role in dragon fight.
For those parties that are combat intensive, this can seem like they are breaking the game, but it is no different than a barbarian/fighter that loads up in offensive feets and strength modifiers.
Even a 5th level Rogue could easily get to 25 PP with an 18 wisdom score.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
As a DM you could also challenge them in other ways to make it more interesting. Sure he can turn into a mouse, but you could always counter him with a snake or something similar in the rubble of the collapsed tunnel. I mean turning into a mouse is a pretty dangerous thing to do... they are not exactly at the top of the food chain.
I think it's great for players to be creative in their approaches. I don't think it's breaking anything, it's the reason most of us play the game. Min-Maxing on the other hand is kind of annoying. These types of players are usual easy to deal with though since they are usually one trick ponies who relay heavily on a single mechanic to carry them in encounters.
All WotC modules have encounters way above deadly level. There are times where players have to break the mood to get through. I play a wizard in SKT with standard HP. There is no battle in the entire campaign where ONE hit cannot take me to less than 5hp. That's hit, not full round of attacks where two hits kill outright if one is a critical.
Clarify:. I play in SKT, rogue i DM is in Homebrew world. She has Eyes of the Eagle (adv on roll, +5 to passive.).
That said, I was hoping we would discuss the issue, not the math of one example...
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
I thought this was worth a quick discussion.
The first sentence is great wording. When a player focusses to creatively create a character, then DM'ing is easier. You tell a great story when you work WITH that to let them try time and succeed. Players are invested and gameplay is through the roof!
I will differ with the second sentence, but only because I used to agree with it 😁. Min/Max characters always have limits; most are like race cars with huge engines and no brakes. Simply a wide range of types of encounters will challenge "creative" characters while exposing the min/max'ers why it's not as cool as they thought.
The WotC team described 4e being developed for the forums where people spent hours/days planning characters; 5e was designed for how it played at the table. In a well designed 5e campaign, the min/max'ers always falter to a well designed all around character.
(Fixed typos/autocorrect)
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Oops,. Must have been paying too much attention to other things... Son had BlizzCon WoW announcement on TV and nine-week old puppies have learned how to climb up in my lap on their own. Too much input!!!!😙
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!