So I'm watching a lot of character building videos and a thought struck me: Do DM's ever feel they themselves are being railroaded by their players' character building choices?
The DMG (and most other advisory sources) is full of verbiage urging DMs to take an accommodating attitude toward their players but can that go too far?
For example, if a ranger chooses a favored enemy, do you feel obligated to retrofit that creature into your campaign?
Can anyone give any other examples of this sort of thing?
I know, I know, most issues like this are solved by talking to your players but I thought this would be a really fun topic for DM conversation. Conversation is good, right?
Ultimately I think it's unavoidable that DM's are guided by and large by their PCs. Whether they are railroaded as such I'm not sure, if a PC was adamant for something to happen they might be able to force DM compliance, though this seems like a very rocky path. I do think there should be a social contract of sorts, probably in a session 0, of what is expected from the players and what is expected from the DM - not in a legalistic manner but in an 'in everyone's best interest' manner.
Examples might include attempting;
forcing an NPC to go down a certain path
attempting to add certain rules or items into a campaign
outright (purposefully) avoiding signposted events, locations, NPCs, or plotlines
attempting to sidetrack / minimise roleplaying for combat or vise versa
As you mention all these can be easily solved by speaking with players, I guess PCs can also do these things maybe subconsciously as well. Without sounding like a broken record - this is why a session 0, or just knowing your players, is important to prevent either party feeling 'railroaded'.
In your particular example I would have a quiet word with the player to ensure that the favoured enemy was something relevant, or enable them to change it in a lore-based / RP centric way; adapting for the environment they are in - cutting down waves of undead for example would probably lead to a level of combat related experience for a PC and might enable them to count among their 'favoured enemies'. A level of empathy when DMing is always good - if you had selected a favoured enemy that NEVER appeared, would you find that interesting or fun?
In short, I think it will invariably happen. The whole malleable nature of the DM role is going to lead to being PC led. If it gets to an uncomfortable level a quiet word as you suggest is always good, if not then try and think of story-based reasons for attempting to un-railroad yourself!
I am not sure that 'Railroaded' is maybe the exact term, but it definitely happens that players can, via a background, let's say corner a DM into running a scenario or even an entire plotline the DM might not really be inclined to run.
Unfortunately there can be cases when, as a DM, you are cornered -- yes I think that is the best word, the more I consider it. The player comes to you with a backstory that does not fit your plans at all. Maybe backstory elements you personally dislike. At this point you are in a catch-22. If you say no, then you have maybe broken the player's heart and prevented them from playing the thing they wanted. If you say yes, you are now stuck running adventures you don't really want to run, maybe against enemies you're not really all that interested in running.
Matt Colville talks about this... the guy at the table who, really, just wants to play "Wolverine" from the X-Men. If he really has his heart set on playing Wolverine (or the fantasy equivalent), and you really don't want that sort of character in the game, one of you is going to end up being unhappy. As a DM, we often feel like we need to take it on the chin and be the one made unhappy, to let the player have fun (it is why we do this after all -- to give our players a fun time). But if you *really* did not want a character like this in your game and it's forcing you to run scenes you don't even want to run, then you have been, to a degree, railroaded... or as I have termed it, cornered... into running stuff you didn't want to run.
Talking can, of course, help with some of this. But if a player has a concept the DM really doesn't want to run, and the player desperately wants to play that concept, then you unfortunately have a circumstance in which someone is going to be unhappy. And for most DMs, we swallow it and let the player be happy... and end up running scenes, sessions, heck whole adventures, we didn't really want to run, just to please the player. And doing things to please the players is great, but if it makes you miserable as a DM, that's where it gets into trouble.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
A Session 0 is very important for both DM's and Players to make sure that expectations are known. DMs have 100% the right to set certain limits on PCs, such as leaving certain races, backgrounds, classes, or subclasses out, as well as describing any house rules they will enforce during the game. I do try to give a basic overview of the game setting including:
These are things that the DM controls, but the players should have knowledge (and possibly input if you are so inclined). This hopefully helps guide character creation to avoid pitfalls of a Ranger with Desert Favored Terrain playing a game set in the ocean, or a Druid who grew up in the artic wanting to wildshape into a tropical bat, etc. For backstories, I usually write a set of 1-2 sentence prompts for players to choose (or use as a stepping stone to a custom prompt). These might include the place you hail from, a reason you are in the story, and possible connections to any important locations/NPCs
Regarding story, I find it best to tease options in the story that you have sketched out (not fleshed out) and flesh out the ones they show interest in, rather than try to improvise all the time or prepare everything (although in a sandbox game you will probably be doing some improvising). In a sandbox, the PCs get to lead the show regarding what they do/pursue, but it's up to you to narrate the 'result' of their decisions. Sometimes that means an opportunity passes, or changes if they don't pursue it. It also means you as a DM have a high degree of control on the 'how'. For example, if a PC wants to research and pursue a priceless magical item you could:
Let his research uncover its location and design a quest, encounters for them if they pursue (if you want them to be able to get it now-ish)
Let his research uncover its location, but place an obstacle in their way, such as it existing on another plane, or being in the possession of a creature too powerful for the party to defeat right now (if you want them to be able to get it at a later date)
Let his research uncover that it was destroyed (if you don't want them to have it...I would recommend also talking to the player OOC on this one, to see if there is an alternate solution for them)
I am not sure that 'Railroaded' is maybe the exact term, but it definitely happens that players can, via a background, let's say corner a DM into running a scenario or even an entire plotline the DM might not really be inclined to run.
Unfortunately there can be cases when, as a DM, you are cornered -- yes I think that is the best word, the more I consider it. The player comes to you with a backstory that does not fit your plans at all. Maybe backstory elements you personally dislike. At this point you are in a catch-22. If you say no, then you have maybe broken the player's heart and prevented them from playing the thing they wanted. If you say yes, you are now stuck running adventures you don't really want to run, maybe against enemies you're not really all that interested in running.
Matt Colville talks about this... the guy at the table who, really, just wants to play "Wolverine" from the X-Men. If he really has his heart set on playing Wolverine (or the fantasy equivalent), and you really don't want that sort of character in the game, one of you is going to end up being unhappy. As a DM, we often feel like we need to take it on the chin and be the one made unhappy, to let the player have fun (it is why we do this after all -- to give our players a fun time). But if you *really* did not want a character like this in your game and it's forcing you to run scenes you don't even want to run, then you have been, to a degree, railroaded... or as I have termed it, cornered... into running stuff you didn't want to run.
Talking can, of course, help with some of this. But if a player has a concept the DM really doesn't want to run, and the player desperately wants to play that concept, then you unfortunately have a circumstance in which someone is going to be unhappy. And for most DMs, we swallow it and let the player be happy... and end up running scenes, sessions, heck whole adventures, we didn't really want to run, just to please the player. And doing things to please the players is great, but if it makes you miserable as a DM, that's where it gets into trouble.
You are the one introduced me to Colville. He had an entire session dedicated to one word......."No". The DM's fun is paramount. It takes precedence over player's "fun". Players don't like to hear this, but they can be replaced far more easily than DM's.
Yes, I saw his "no" video. He makes an excellent series of points as usual.
It's still really hard to say no to a good friend who has his heart set on playing a particular PC with a specific background... who you know will be made miserable by having to play a different concept (or more likely, *thinks* he'll be miserable but would have a blast if only he would try it...).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I try to accommodate my players. There’s still going to be a lot more of my creations in the game than theirs, so I encourage them to be as creative as they can. I had a paladin want to invent his own subclass including lore, and I retrofitted one of the religions in my game to work with it. The player went to a lot of effort, so they deserve it. Of course this should be a bilateral agreement between the DM and player. If you want to play a half-orc, but the DM insists that orcs don’t exist in their setting, pick a different race, or maybe work out a way to re-skin the race as a half-owlbear or whatever works in their setting.
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So I'm watching a lot of character building videos and a thought struck me: Do DM's ever feel they themselves are being railroaded by their players' character building choices?
The DMG (and most other advisory sources) is full of verbiage urging DMs to take an accommodating attitude toward their players but can that go too far?
For example, if a ranger chooses a favored enemy, do you feel obligated to retrofit that creature into your campaign?
Can anyone give any other examples of this sort of thing?
I know, I know, most issues like this are solved by talking to your players but I thought this would be a really fun topic for DM conversation. Conversation is good, right?
It depends. A PC might have contacts and I will occasionally insert them, but you can do as you wish
Enjoy my magic items, spells, monsters, my race, and a few feats. And GIVE ME FEEDBACK... or else.
Like what I say?
⬐ Just press this little guy right here.
Ultimately I think it's unavoidable that DM's are guided by and large by their PCs. Whether they are railroaded as such I'm not sure, if a PC was adamant for something to happen they might be able to force DM compliance, though this seems like a very rocky path. I do think there should be a social contract of sorts, probably in a session 0, of what is expected from the players and what is expected from the DM - not in a legalistic manner but in an 'in everyone's best interest' manner.
Examples might include attempting;
As you mention all these can be easily solved by speaking with players, I guess PCs can also do these things maybe subconsciously as well. Without sounding like a broken record - this is why a session 0, or just knowing your players, is important to prevent either party feeling 'railroaded'.
In your particular example I would have a quiet word with the player to ensure that the favoured enemy was something relevant, or enable them to change it in a lore-based / RP centric way; adapting for the environment they are in - cutting down waves of undead for example would probably lead to a level of combat related experience for a PC and might enable them to count among their 'favoured enemies'. A level of empathy when DMing is always good - if you had selected a favoured enemy that NEVER appeared, would you find that interesting or fun?
In short, I think it will invariably happen. The whole malleable nature of the DM role is going to lead to being PC led. If it gets to an uncomfortable level a quiet word as you suggest is always good, if not then try and think of story-based reasons for attempting to un-railroad yourself!
DM - The Call of Strahd (CoS); Feyrealm Campaign, Chapter 0 - Bleak Prospect (BP), Chapter 1 - Destination Unknown (DU)
In a word: Yes.
I am not sure that 'Railroaded' is maybe the exact term, but it definitely happens that players can, via a background, let's say corner a DM into running a scenario or even an entire plotline the DM might not really be inclined to run.
Unfortunately there can be cases when, as a DM, you are cornered -- yes I think that is the best word, the more I consider it. The player comes to you with a backstory that does not fit your plans at all. Maybe backstory elements you personally dislike. At this point you are in a catch-22. If you say no, then you have maybe broken the player's heart and prevented them from playing the thing they wanted. If you say yes, you are now stuck running adventures you don't really want to run, maybe against enemies you're not really all that interested in running.
Matt Colville talks about this... the guy at the table who, really, just wants to play "Wolverine" from the X-Men. If he really has his heart set on playing Wolverine (or the fantasy equivalent), and you really don't want that sort of character in the game, one of you is going to end up being unhappy. As a DM, we often feel like we need to take it on the chin and be the one made unhappy, to let the player have fun (it is why we do this after all -- to give our players a fun time). But if you *really* did not want a character like this in your game and it's forcing you to run scenes you don't even want to run, then you have been, to a degree, railroaded... or as I have termed it, cornered... into running stuff you didn't want to run.
Talking can, of course, help with some of this. But if a player has a concept the DM really doesn't want to run, and the player desperately wants to play that concept, then you unfortunately have a circumstance in which someone is going to be unhappy. And for most DMs, we swallow it and let the player be happy... and end up running scenes, sessions, heck whole adventures, we didn't really want to run, just to please the player. And doing things to please the players is great, but if it makes you miserable as a DM, that's where it gets into trouble.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
A Session 0 is very important for both DM's and Players to make sure that expectations are known. DMs have 100% the right to set certain limits on PCs, such as leaving certain races, backgrounds, classes, or subclasses out, as well as describing any house rules they will enforce during the game. I do try to give a basic overview of the game setting including:
These are things that the DM controls, but the players should have knowledge (and possibly input if you are so inclined). This hopefully helps guide character creation to avoid pitfalls of a Ranger with Desert Favored Terrain playing a game set in the ocean, or a Druid who grew up in the artic wanting to wildshape into a tropical bat, etc. For backstories, I usually write a set of 1-2 sentence prompts for players to choose (or use as a stepping stone to a custom prompt). These might include the place you hail from, a reason you are in the story, and possible connections to any important locations/NPCs
Regarding story, I find it best to tease options in the story that you have sketched out (not fleshed out) and flesh out the ones they show interest in, rather than try to improvise all the time or prepare everything (although in a sandbox game you will probably be doing some improvising). In a sandbox, the PCs get to lead the show regarding what they do/pursue, but it's up to you to narrate the 'result' of their decisions. Sometimes that means an opportunity passes, or changes if they don't pursue it. It also means you as a DM have a high degree of control on the 'how'. For example, if a PC wants to research and pursue a priceless magical item you could:
You are the one introduced me to Colville. He had an entire session dedicated to one word......."No". The DM's fun is paramount. It takes precedence over player's "fun". Players don't like to hear this, but they can be replaced far more easily than DM's.
Yes, I saw his "no" video. He makes an excellent series of points as usual.
It's still really hard to say no to a good friend who has his heart set on playing a particular PC with a specific background... who you know will be made miserable by having to play a different concept (or more likely, *thinks* he'll be miserable but would have a blast if only he would try it...).
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I try to accommodate my players. There’s still going to be a lot more of my creations in the game than theirs, so I encourage them to be as creative as they can. I had a paladin want to invent his own subclass including lore, and I retrofitted one of the religions in my game to work with it. The player went to a lot of effort, so they deserve it. Of course this should be a bilateral agreement between the DM and player. If you want to play a half-orc, but the DM insists that orcs don’t exist in their setting, pick a different race, or maybe work out a way to re-skin the race as a half-owlbear or whatever works in their setting.