Chaotic evil, yes, is another problem. Actually, two problems.
A lot of people have trouble playing both Chaotic and Evil... and the two together are usually just an excuse to do whatever the player wants without needing any sort of rationale or justification.
And Evil can work, but is nearly impossible in a neutral to evil party -- not in a party in which everyone else is neutral to good. If you're going to allow Evil, as a DM, you need to have a conversation with the table and decide, do we want to do an evil/unethical/unscrupulous party this campaign? If so, then we all make up such characters. Having one person be actively Chaotic Evil in a more typical party of LG/NG/CG/LN, you are going to have all kinds of trouble.
I really good player can pull off Evil, but probably not chaotic evil, in a good-leaning party. I've done it with Lawful Evil... the commonality with my character and the rest was the Lawfulness. She didn't just randomly kill things. She was highly organized and efficient. Yes, she would do things "off camera" or when no one else was looking that the good PCs would not approve of, but she was smart and orderly enough not to just randomly do crazy evil stuff in front of the party.
Yeah, any time any player picks any type of chaotic or evil, I ask them to define those alignments for me.
Most players define chaotic as reckless and stupid, and evil as idiotically selfish and abusive. Any observations about NPCs and lore will show you that is incorrect. Most elves are chaotic neutral, which represents their dedication to come to rational conclusions for each challenge rather than differ to a legal determination set by a higher authority. This is why evil can be lawful and chaotic can be good.
While evil does not preclude intelligence and cooperation, I demonstrate to them that even chaotic evil lords use organization and plots. They are typically treacherous, but they don't sabotage themselves by attacking useful assets.
When a player describes chaotic as reckless and evil as stupid, I direct them to the intelligence stat, which is where actual stupid characters belong. And let them know that if they want to play chaotic stupid, that they can't participate in a cooperative game, and chaotic evil miscreants are typically slaves to superior chaotic evil lords who force them to behave, because that's the only party a chaotic evil stupid character belongs. Chaotic evil stupid lords get replaced by chaotic evil smart usurpers.
100% this.
You can absolutely play a chaotic evil character that doesn't kill indiscriminately and follows laws and even forms attachments to others. Alignment just represents your *ideals*, it doesn't dictate your actions 100% of the time and force you to act on them compulsively.
You can be a chaotic character-- someone who does not believe in the rule of law and does not think there should be law-- and still follow the laws because you understand that breaking them has consequences and you'd prefer to survive. Chaotic characters can obey laws, they just don't have to like it.
Likewise, selfish, evil characters-- characters that don't value the autonomy of others, are out for themselves, and are often malevolent-- aren't compelled to just go around killing everyone because they *know* that they live in a world where that's frowned upon by the people with all the power, and if you want to live long enough to be one of the people with all the power someday, then you need to play ball for a little while while you enact your plans. You don't just automatically hate everyone because you're evil; maybe there's a handful of people in this world that you would do anything for and that fuels your evil (because "anything" includes bad things). Maybe you see your good party members as your minions, who you need to ensure are as powerful and dedicated as possible in order to best serve *your* needs later, so step 1 of your evil plan is to engratiate yourself to them and build them up. Maybe the lawful good paladin who disapproves of your worldview, instead of being blood enemies because alignment, you could find their disapproval and their morals hilarious, or maybe find them naive and almost feel sorry for them, but still develope a grudging respect for them as an ally.
Chaotic Evil can function in a party, as long as you spare a second's thought to what those terms *do* actually mean and what they *don't* actually mean. BUT, when people say "chaotic evil never works", they're still not wrong, but I just take that with the understanding that when most people hear "chaotic evil" they imagine "1-dimensional chaotic stupid superpsycho".
Another thing is that when pitching an evil character, you need player buy-in from your fellow players. If they don't like the idea of having that kind of character dynamic in the party, then playing it anyways and forcing it on them is just mean and inconsiderate. But talk to them in session 0, you'll probably be surprised when, given a choice in the matter, a lot of players would find the idea of having an evil character they can have a love/hate relationship with in the party really cool. Hell, Spike in Buffy is pretty clear cut chaotic evil for most of the show and people love him (except for in that one episode which is more Joss Whedon's fault than the character's).
Evil characters and chaotic ones can work, but yes, it takes a mature RPer to pull it off... and by mature, I don't mean a grown up. I mean someone who has matured in the hobby and has the ability to portray nuance.
As opposed to "I'm evil, so I attack."
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Any time someone creates a character, they should be expected to answer two questions
Why is this character an adventurer? If the player can't come up with an answer, or the answer doesn't fit with the campaign, they should have a new character.
Why would this character be with the other PCs? Why would they trust him, and vice versa. Again, if the player can't come up with an answer, or the answer is unconvincing, they should come up with a new character.
Chaotic evil PCs usually have trouble with question 2 (question 1 isn't really a problem for a dungeon crawling game, loot is a perfectly fine CE motivation, but may be a problem in other campaign types).
In fact, I think I am going to explicitly add them to my session 0 questions that I already have... why is your character an adventurer and why is your character with the party? And I am going to expect those to be answered in the background somewhere.
I've not got any huge issues with this in my current campaign but for next time I want it to be explicit.
Of course, next time is going to be years from now, probably... but I'll file it away.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
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100% this.
You can absolutely play a chaotic evil character that doesn't kill indiscriminately and follows laws and even forms attachments to others. Alignment just represents your *ideals*, it doesn't dictate your actions 100% of the time and force you to act on them compulsively.
You can be a chaotic character-- someone who does not believe in the rule of law and does not think there should be law-- and still follow the laws because you understand that breaking them has consequences and you'd prefer to survive. Chaotic characters can obey laws, they just don't have to like it.
Likewise, selfish, evil characters-- characters that don't value the autonomy of others, are out for themselves, and are often malevolent-- aren't compelled to just go around killing everyone because they *know* that they live in a world where that's frowned upon by the people with all the power, and if you want to live long enough to be one of the people with all the power someday, then you need to play ball for a little while while you enact your plans. You don't just automatically hate everyone because you're evil; maybe there's a handful of people in this world that you would do anything for and that fuels your evil (because "anything" includes bad things). Maybe you see your good party members as your minions, who you need to ensure are as powerful and dedicated as possible in order to best serve *your* needs later, so step 1 of your evil plan is to engratiate yourself to them and build them up. Maybe the lawful good paladin who disapproves of your worldview, instead of being blood enemies because alignment, you could find their disapproval and their morals hilarious, or maybe find them naive and almost feel sorry for them, but still develope a grudging respect for them as an ally.
Chaotic Evil can function in a party, as long as you spare a second's thought to what those terms *do* actually mean and what they *don't* actually mean. BUT, when people say "chaotic evil never works", they're still not wrong, but I just take that with the understanding that when most people hear "chaotic evil" they imagine "1-dimensional chaotic stupid superpsycho".
Another thing is that when pitching an evil character, you need player buy-in from your fellow players. If they don't like the idea of having that kind of character dynamic in the party, then playing it anyways and forcing it on them is just mean and inconsiderate. But talk to them in session 0, you'll probably be surprised when, given a choice in the matter, a lot of players would find the idea of having an evil character they can have a love/hate relationship with in the party really cool. Hell, Spike in Buffy is pretty clear cut chaotic evil for most of the show and people love him (except for in that one episode which is more Joss Whedon's fault than the character's).
Endrant.
Evil characters and chaotic ones can work, but yes, it takes a mature RPer to pull it off... and by mature, I don't mean a grown up. I mean someone who has matured in the hobby and has the ability to portray nuance.
As opposed to "I'm evil, so I attack."
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Any time someone creates a character, they should be expected to answer two questions
Chaotic evil PCs usually have trouble with question 2 (question 1 isn't really a problem for a dungeon crawling game, loot is a perfectly fine CE motivation, but may be a problem in other campaign types).
Those 2 questions are key.
In fact, I think I am going to explicitly add them to my session 0 questions that I already have... why is your character an adventurer and why is your character with the party? And I am going to expect those to be answered in the background somewhere.
I've not got any huge issues with this in my current campaign but for next time I want it to be explicit.
Of course, next time is going to be years from now, probably... but I'll file it away.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.